What we have to remember about non hobbyists

Good story. Yes, reality.

Good post.

The other day at the office the train hobby came up.  An older colleague joked about how Fester was always blowing up/crashing the trains on the Munsters, in my colleague's view because they never worked in his experience and required a lot of knowledge to get running correctly.  Obviously I don't agree with the comment, but it was made in jest not to be pointed, but it did illustrate an attitude many people have that I think is related to the original post.  Anything that can be done to simplify the hobby for beginners or casual hobbyists will ultimately inure to the overall benefit of the hobby.  That is why, for example, I think Lionel with the LC+ and MTH with their remote set-up in their starter sets, understand this and try to make running the trains for the new user as simple as possible.  I see plug and play as more of the same, and a good idea.  I think Lionel is on the right track here, as these developments also make it easier for kids to set up and run trains.

I like your post and point made.  Another thing to remember is that a lot of people simply won't read the instructions.  Everyone is in too much of a hurry these days.  There are a few on this forum who open up their new really expensive toys, throw them on the track without reading anything about how it works, and then immediately jump on the forum so someone else can figure out their problem for them.  The old instant gratification thing that some say is a significant element of today's society. 

Yes she made a comment about not reading the directions for the crossing

If you watch Mike Reagan's Big Boy video, he makes a special point to remind everyone to read the manual that comes with it

As we say in the computer tech industry to the end users, RTFM!  (Read The F***'n Manual!).

Interesting and true. But wait till next year for more calls. That's part of being a train big brother.

And not everyone has a brother that is knowledgeable about trains. We can only imagine the number of calls and types of questions the manufacturers and train stores get that sell the beginner sets. Probably an astronomical number of each.

Good story, I can relate !!

Brent

Yep....sometimes simple is easier.....WOW, what a comment eh???...

Actually, this is a neat thread!

Alan

Chris,

Well put!

A lot of good stuff in those manuals 

Chris;

Got a similar call from a niece (I gave a set to her son last year).

"The Train won't run"

I found it was sitting several feet from the lockon which lit up when the power was applied.

Moving the engine to the lockon made it run a few feet then stop.

I found that they were not getting a good connection at a couple places on the track. Carefully Reconnecting the track fixed everything.

They probably took it down by now as well But he had fun for a while.

excellent and so true!!

Chris,

I can relate to your post because I was pretty much in the same boat as your sister.  I never had trains growing up. My grandfather and uncle had a set, but it was given away when I a kid.  I saw it run when I visited, but never got a chance to play with it.

Fast forward 35 years and I now have a 4 year old son who LOVES trains.  After buying him a wooden train set when he was 2 and a thomas motorized set when he was three, I decided to take the plunge into a real model railroad.  I had no idea what I was doing.  I did some research online and found forums such as this one (where I got lots of great ideas).  After reading lots of opinions, I came to the conclusion that a LionChief set was the best for a young child.  I can just give the remote to my son and he can work the sounds and motion without being right at the table working the transformer lever.  I am sure I could have figured out how to lay and wire the regular track, but I liked the idea of the fastrack.   It allows me to adjust and modify my layout with ease.  Plus, it was so easy to set up.

Honestly, I am not sure if I would have been so quick to get a train set if it was not for one of these Lionel LionChief sets because of the ease of set up and the value.  In the future I very well may upgrade to something else.  I've already had my eye on a Lionel EMD E9 Florida East Coast set with the accompanying set of passenger cars, but that will have to wait until I have saved up some money because the set would be about $2000.  I really like that I got what --- to me-- is a very nice starter set for less than $300.

It is certainly true that some train runners are not hobbyists and probably never will be, preferring simply to play with trains as a toy occasionally.  To make the transition into the hobby status, however, requires something more than user friendly manuals and instruction sheets.  One thing that should be considered is the quality of the product.  If someone wants to buy a train for his/her child, and it fails to run after awhile or is unreliable, that person will equate the train with any cheap toy and never become a hobbyist.  For those of us who grew up with mechanical trains of the post-war era, we had the advantage of running those metal heavyweights all over the place.  There were repair shops and parts available to fix up what we broke or could easily provide us with some maintenance (like a plugged smoke chamber).  We became hobbyists then and continued to be hobbyists even in the "modern" era because we were already hooked. So we tolerate problems more readily than the novice who is more likely to be discouraged by high-priced but faulty products.  There is no excuse to wait an inordinate amount of time to get a train repaired from a manufacturer.  This tends to diminish the enthusiasm for trains for anyone, particularly younger children.  As far as some people not reading manuals or doing what we consider to be stupid things, remember who you are dealing with today.  These are people who can decipher how to work a computer without any manuals, almost intuitively.  Can you????  I can't, even though I might be able to wire a train layout without causing a short.  It's a different mindset today I suppose.....

A factor here is that an awful lot of people know absolutely nothing about mechanics or electricity. They don't know the difference between AC and DC, or what a transformer is, or the basics of friction, traction, and lubrication. That's one reason trains are good for kids, they tend to learn that sort of stuff as they get into it. But it's a lot tougher for the kids to learn if the parents don't have anything to teach them. 

I think a lot of people today are not used to assembling equipment of any kind, let alone a train set. When I was a kid I had Lincoln Logs and Tinker Toy sets from a real early age, and I had a wind up train set with a loop of track that I could take down and assemble at five years. When the American Flyer arrived when I was seven, it wasn't a big jump to electric trains. By the time I way eight I would set up our Christmas figure eight on my own (mom didn't know what to do and dad was at work...of course). Children today learn other skills at an early age. It's just a different time...

That made the most memorable moment of my season. My Brother-in-Law was setting up the Christmas train, before Thanksgiving! (I gave the twins the set, last Christmas) I get the "It doesn't work " call. My phone troubleshooting exhausted, they box it up and bring it down for Thanksgiving. 

My 3 year old niece greets me with a big hug and with all the cuteness and sincerity, of a 3 year old. "I love you Uncle Marty. And you have to fix the Rudolph train, cause it's not working." It was a few bent Realtrax connections. I replaced some and reshowed Matt how to assemble it. I got an iphone video, of them running it a few days later!

I forget a lot of day to day things. I won't forget that greeting, or the twins playing with my layout this past Saturday

This is a good point that being mechanically and electrically inclined helps involvement with trains.  When I was a kid, when I went into my father or uncles basement it was loaded with drill presses, lathes, table saw, etc. and models of all kind in progress.  I thought that was normal life.  Learning about drill and tap sizes was a serious part of education for me. 

So many people are not into this.  I recently visited my girlfriends son and I doubt that there is a screwdriver in his very large house.  I don't know how people get on in life without a soldering iron, yet most do. 

Hard to be into trains, beyond the loop around the tree, if one does not own a screwdriver.

Bill

I can make a lot of mechanical and electrical stuff work but people act like I am an idiot because I don't like Windows 8.  So, are the techno-geeks the ones that can't get their little Lionels to run ?? In today's world, simple "plug and play" for the masses is good.

John, That is the main reason why our tech support department exists is because the majority of our customer won't or refuses to read the manual!!!!........

A couple of you have made good points about people not having basic mechanical skills. One thing I've noticed is that many people won't try anything unless they take a class for it. One neighbor bought a camera and could not listen to the guy who tried to teach her how to use it. She went and took a class and did fine, saying it was so much easier. The kicker? Same manual, same instruction, only she was sitting behind a desk. It's really hard-wired now. If you want new customers, say you're offering a class on Your First Train.

Very few young people hang out with their parents when they're little now. Day care is age-matched and apart from anything in the outside world, then school takes over. Off hours are tightly scheduled so there's no "wasted" time. There's also no time to see adults doing routine things, so no one has casual contact with a parent doing ordinary home maintenance.

Yesterday another forum's member had a flat tire on her car. Instead if changing it, she waited an hour for a tow truck. The driver didn't even try to put on the spare. He towed her to a dealership, where the people didn't know how to change it, so they sent her home with a loaner and said she could pick up the car when the mechanic got to it this morning, Seriously--hours of waiting, a tow bill and an overnight for a flat tire? We need some Being An Adult classes.

No way!!!  You might as well turn in your "man" card!

Instruction manuals should go in the waste basket as soon as you open up a new product.  Any problems after that should be solved with a google search.

Unfortunately much of the time those manuals are written by programmers or engineers instead of technical writers, result being they're pure gobbledegook.  I read 'em, but much of the time I then get the information I really need from internet search engines.

Pete

You make a great point when you mentioned "google search."  I would not consider myself mechanically inclined, but I do have access to the internet.  Searching for help online and finding forums (such as this) and YouTube videos has enabled me to do things I would never considered doing before.  For example, replacing parts on my washer, dryer, fridge icemaker, etc.

With regard to my train set, I did take the easy route with the LionChief set, but I built the train table myself after viewing Lionel's YouTube video.

Laziness is the key.  There is SO MUCH information available for people if they want to do something themselves.  Most people just don't want to take the time to research.  Not just instruction manuals.  How many times do people ask questions on forums such as this one without even taking the time to do a simple search to find the answer themselves.  I haven't noticed it much here because I'm new, but on other forums of which I am a member, I see it all the time.  When I was getting my train set up and running, I searched online --- and fortunately found this forum.  It was - and continues to be - a wealth of valuable knowledge.   After I got my layout up and running and joined up and have very much enjoyed the conversations being had here.  But I digress...

We get visitors who take the trains out for the tree every year. We also get questions regarding starter sets, but before we make a recommendation we try to get an idea of where they want to go with them.

However, we never tell them about Joe McDoakes.

Mechanical skills are generally passe in the new generation.  There are fewer younger people who tinker with cars for a lot of reasons.  One is the complexity of electronic systems, the inability to to get inside the engine compartment without disassembling the auto or having specialized tools to do so.  My youngest son would probably trade-in a car if it had a flat tire (probably an extreme hyperbole, but it makes my point).  The same rationale translates to tinkering with computers.  The mentality is to take a computer, lap top, or I-phone and get it operating within an hour.  If there is something wrong, you can get tech support in an instant and no computer engineering degree or specialized tools are required.  It is not laziness; it is a part of our existing culture.  If you had a problem with your lawnmower you might try to solve the problem.  Today, if someone even has a lawnmower (instead of a lawn service), they just junk the mower and buy another.  I've talked to a lot of younger people about this and they say they make enough money and their time is more valuable than to waste it on repairs.  They often lack problem-solving experience because they don't have to solve problems--just avoid them.  I was proud of myself when I was able to fix my wife's dryer and washing machine which has been operating for 35 years.  That didn't impress my kids at all--they think I'm nuts for doing that when I have the money to buy another set.  They lack the drive to solve such problems because it is irrelevant in their culture.

My policy is "I don't need no stinking manual/instructions!"  Sometimes it works, other times-not so good. Yesterday I tore apart a 100+ yr old electric sewing machine, cleaned it up and got it working again. This was a Wilcox& Gibbs-no manual. The funny thing is, as I was doing it, I was thinking how much it as like working n an old Lionel or Ives engine.  Good training. I would agree that so much today is made to not be repairable that is a diminished talent. they don't know how much fun they are missing. Did they finally get the X boxes up and running !!?? Another thing about today's manuals, so many are written overseas in pigdin English.  The last two laptops I have bought there weren't hardly any instructional info with them.

Gabe found a typewriter at Goodwill last week, and not just any but a grand old battleship of an Oliver. He's got it working for the most part. At this rate, all he'll need is a green eyeshade and some onion skin paper for "copy 5" train orders.

Chris - This is an interesting thread.  I hadn't thought much about it before, but I think that you are right on.  Now that I think about it, I want Plug & Play too in things that I buy and don't want to have to learn a lot about.  Cell phones and computers come to mind.

Art

Excellent post. I've also seen, in my 10 years with the local modular club, people come up to our members and ask about getting started, does grandpas train still work, is Lionel still around, etc, etc, etc. I've seen plenty of guys go into these long winded conversations with technical terms and more. Many of us don't realize that many of the general public don't get what we are talking about. If the member of the public is a train person, then we'll talk technical terms but if it is mom or dad, get them the info they want in the quickest, simplest, most clear form. 

I put together a poster earlier this year to take to a show along with RTR catalogs. What a tremendous impact it had. I kept it simple with those that needed the basic, beginner info. The key is knowing your audience. Mom and Dad usually don't care about how great the steam engine is in the set, just the ease and reliability and cost. There is a time and audience for technical terms, descriptions, etc but often when dealing with the "general public" there is no need for that.  

I understand Lionel moving in the direction of Plug and Play. I guess it makes the trains easier to use. But doesn't it also take away some of the educational value we "talk" about from time to time.

That's the thing. The RTR sets are NOT high-priced!

In 1981-1982 the "Union Pacific Thunder Freight" basic RTR starter set retailed for around $180. In 2014, Lionel produces several sets at or below that same price point!

$180 in 1981 was the entire Christmas budget for two years. In 2014, it's one gift for one child, maybe.

Modern RTR sets are hardly expensive, so if they get equated to cheap toys, maybe it's because they ARE cheap toys.

In my world $180 is still a lot of money.

       It may be true that "starter" sets or RTRs are cheaper than previously.  I am not too familiar with them, but are they reliable?  If someone wanting to get into trains as a hobby initially buys a higher level train set but it is faulty and has to be returned, that can discourage them even more than if they bought a starter set.  I think many folks equate cheap price with poor quality, although that is not necessarily so.  I find many people say that "you get what you pay for" when it comes to anything they buy.  So if a cheaper RTR breaks down, they might not feel so bad as opposed to a more expensive train set that is faulty.

We bought our daughter one of these exact sets, seems it was more like $200 plus, but we may have gotten some accessories or more track with it? Not that it isn't a lot now, but that was really a LOT back then. All I remember for sure about the price was that it just about broke the bank at the time of purchase. I think the train store we had at that time was also mostly MSRP on everything they sold.

As a side note for all who say we have no selection of products in O gauge, this was a train store, carried Lionel only and they had at most maybe a half dozen conventional sets to choose from. And the new Lionel catalog they gave us (pretty sure we had one anyway) was just a few pages if I remember correctly. Wish I would have also found that catalog. Compare that to the size of today's catalogs number of manufacturers and current available offerings to choose from.

We still have it. Found the train, the box and all the track and accessories for it when we moved last year. The box was empty, train was packaged separately in another box? Track and things were in yet another box? I had looked for it before and only found the empty box. Had been up in the attic for many years prior our moving. Need to get it out one of these days and see if it still runs. A good new years project.

Sorry to get off track, talking about that old set got me sidetracked. Now back to regular scheduled programming. 

Why can't new toy/model trains be this simple to operate and cheap to own? OK, it would more likely be plastic instead of tin today, but why can't they make stuff simple anymore?

Everybody has to have digital this and remote that just to make a train go around a loop of track these days. Complexity and cost increase to the point where a lot of folks say "No way."

"Anything that is complex is not useful and anything that is useful is simple. This has been my whole life's motto."

Mikhail Kalashnikov