What will be the new Sunset Diesel Locomotive announcement?

In Scott's latest newsletter he said he was contemplating the GP40-2 as a replacement to the sluggish SD40-2 reservations and asking for feedback on this model selection.

Scott K.

I would like to see the FM H-16-44.  But, I can't read Scott's mind.

Just my $0.25, adjusted for inflation, of course.  Mike, very clever.  I hope you don't mind my using it.

Ed

Most likely something Old that is only found in a museum

Probably some little switcher that was popular in the 1940's/'50's.

I'd love to see the SD40-2's get done but that isn't going to happen. I've already emailed Scott to express my interest in the GP40-2 project but sadly, I think that will meet the same fate as the SD40-2.

Lionel and MTH make SD45's. I'm not sure if either make and SD45-2. It seems like the only interest is in something from the early days of diesel. Anything that could even remotely close to being considered modern will probably garner little enthusiasm.

Alco is rare. IMO.  I found these interesting, Steamtown, Scranton, PA.  The low nose would work well with the current Sunset drive system.  Different diesels, apparently parts are still available.  As I was walking through the yard next to DL 3000, it was so quiet, I didn't realize it was running.   A C630, which had been done by Weaver and others.   Smaller models that would fit/operate well, on most layouts. Again IMO.

Mike, I agree that an F9 is a strong possibility. Scott has stated his intention to offer North Coast Limited passenger cars, which can’t be far off now that the Empire Builder is finishing. An NP F9 ABA set would be ideal for the NCL (although F3 and F7 units were also used). 

I would like to see a GP9 and/or GP7.    The GP9 was much more common and many more were built.   It was the mainstay of the RRs for a number of years, kind of like the SD-40 was in the 80s and 90s.

Catnap,

You are right about the SD45 which is why I only suggested the tunnel motors and the very rare SD45B. Produced along with the SD40T-2, maybe that would garner enough reservations for a run of the four models. I'd like something much newer, but given the number of ACes, ES44s, and GEvos produced in 3 rail by Lionel and MTH, I just don't see Scott getting enough total 2 rail/3 rail orders to carry a run. Sigh............. I'd like to see a Tier 4 Locomotive, but maybe just 2 new a model for a small importer to carry. Sigh some more.................

prrjim posted:

I would like to see a GP9 and/or GP7.    The GP9 was much more common and many more were built.   It was the mainstay of the RRs for a number of years, kind of like the SD-40 was in the 80s and 90s.

Recently done  Sunset SD 7 and SD 9 

Hopefully the GP9 and GP7 would share a bunch of parts with the SD versions.    In that era, 6 axle power was not as common.   It was considered more for heavy duty lugging, or in some cases llight axle loadings.    For example, PRR had over 300 GP9s, and only a dozen or so SD9s and only 2 SD7s for the Madison hill.

I do have a sunset SD9 and it is very nice.

prrjim posted:

Hopefully the GP9 and GP7 would share a bunch of parts with the SD versions.    In that era, 6 axle power was not as common.   It was considered more for heavy duty lugging, or in some cases llight axle loadings.    For example, PRR had over 300 GP9s, and only a dozen or so SD9s and only 2 SD7s for the Madison hill.

I do have a sunset SD9 and it is very nice.

Then there are railroads like the CB&Q and SP that used SD7 & SD9 models, equipped with steam generators, in passenger service.

The tunnel motors would be awesome!  As would the GP40-2 both have major class I railroads that could help carry other regional railroads that might not draw as many orders.  Likewise there are different eras and paint variations that could be applied for multi-runs.   The GP10's in HO and now N are widely successful, but highly unlikely. 

None the less, whatever it is certainly needs to be something that has some popularity, longevity, and can potentially be reused for other projects down the road, which might further lend credibility to the F9's, etc...

The PRR had some GP7s equipped with Steam generatoers for Passenger service.   I don't think they had any GP9s with steam generators,    At that time, they apparently had enough E7s, E8s, FP7s, Alco PAs, and Baldwin psg sharks to handle  the remainining passenger requirements.

OK here's a stretch.  I will go for the Baldwin centipedes in N de M   PRR  SAL and the cancled UP paint.

Yes I know thew have been done, but not accurate.

BH

As these models are waaay beyond my budget it doesn't really matter to me what the new loco announced is.

But, as we all like to wishlist... a GP38-2 and/or a CF7, please.  

Hot Water posted:

prrjim posted:

Hopefully the GP9 and GP7 would share a bunch of parts with the SD versions.    In that era, 6 axle power was not as common.   It was considered more for heavy duty lugging, or in some cases llight axle loadings.    For example, PRR had over 300 GP9s, and only a dozen or so SD9s and only 2 SD7s for the Madison hill.

I do have a sunset SD9 and it is very nice.

Then there are railroads like the CB&Q and SP that used SD7 & SD9 models, equipped with steam generators, in passenger service.

Both roads SDs look gorgeous, whether SP black widow or Burlington's Chinese red.

And even stodgy PRR dabbled in GP9bs, joining  Uncle Pete who had a whole slew of them.

Might make for a better seller. 

I can tell you a decision has not been made.  The lack of reservations for the SD40-2 has made Scott wary of any "modern" locomotives.  He would love to do a Tier 4 but if either Lionel or MTH announce one prior to delivery the dollars first crowd will walk away from their reservations so fast he won't be able to keep up with them.  So the only possibility would be deposit required reservations and he does not want to do that either and does not believe that will receive much support.

I've suggested Train Masters and that has not received much support because of the Lionel and MTH versions.  I have suggested multiple versions of Baldwin DRS and AS units (no switchers) because of the similarity of the body shells and number of roads so that is a possibility.  And there is only one version done by MTH, albeit very poorly.

Personally I rooting for the GP40-2 but that is showing similar support to the the SD.

rdunniii posted:

..... So the only possibility would be deposit required reservations and he does not want to do that either and does not believe that will receive much support. ....

I've sometimes wondered about that. These beautifully and correctly detailed models have an accordingly higher price, and therefore appeal to a more discerning modeler .... who really knows what he wants. Why not let folks put their money where their mouth is .... with deposits? Maybe there would be surprises as to which models have a lot of demand?

Though, I'm sure that the folks at 3rd Rail have put lots of thought into this, and know better. Marketing and Sales is not my bag. 

I would have liked some old ALCO's and jeeps from them.

RDUNNlll

I think it goes without saying that what ever Scott does, Brand M and Brand L will race to put a cheaper version into production. If that is the overwhelming single factor, then, based on that logic, nothing can be produced as it will always be copied by M and L, unless, maybe it's a very oddball item as mentioned earlier.  I notice that Lionel is putting out F-7s and 3 rail hobbyist do have their brand loyalties, many times choosing Brand and Price over quality and scale. Progress is being made thanks to 3RS, but it's slow going. I think that maybe now, reservations with deposits is the answer. Yes, put up your cash to back your play. It is the way many brass projects are done. I realize it's an accounting headache, especially if the run is cancelled for lack of enough reservations, but I'm at a lost think of any other way to do it. And I do agree that if the reservation phase is a long one, people want to pull their money and use it for other things....like staying alive, keeping warm, paying debts. I get it. Even now, I must admit, that there are those who will wait until Scott announces something, then say to themselves, "Hey, Brand M or L will make that, all I have to do is wait and I'll get a better price (if not a better model). It's cheaper, and who cares where the headlight is. Truthfully, I don't need headlights, etc., etc.," I know I sound like I'm raining on my own parade, but...you make a very sobering point: The split between O Scale and O Gauge makes it very hard to get a quality model that's not a brass budget buster. If there was one track, one standard, one operating system, this would all be much easier to work out. In those ever fateful words, "Now what?".

Mike Caddell posted:

RDUNNlll

I think it goes without saying that what ever Scott does, Brand M and Brand L will race to put a cheaper version into production. If that is the overwhelming single factor, then, based on that logic, nothing can be produced as it will always be copied by M and L, unless, maybe it's a very oddball item as mentioned earlier.  I notice that Lionel is putting out F-7s and 3 rail hobbyist do have their brand loyalties, many times choosing Brand and Price over quality and scale. Progress is being made thanks to 3RS, but it's slow going. I think that maybe now, reservations with deposits is the answer. Yes, put up your cash to back your play. It is the way many brass projects are done. I realize it's an accounting headache, especially if the run is cancelled for lack of enough reservations, but I'm at a lost think of any other way to do it. And I do agree that if the reservation phase is a long one, people want to pull their money and use it for other things....like staying alive, keeping warm, paying debts. I get it. Even now, I must admit, that there are those who will wait until Scott announces something, then say to themselves, "Hey, Brand M or L will make that, all I have to do is wait and I'll get a better price (if not a better model). It's cheaper, and who cares where the headlight is. Truthfully, I don't need headlights, etc., etc.," I know I sound like I'm raining on my own parade, but...you make a very sobering point: The split between O Scale and O Gauge makes it very hard to get a quality model that's not a brass budget buster. If there was one track, one standard, one operating system, this would all be much easier to work out. In those ever fateful words, "Now what?".

I certainly admire Scott and 3rd rail for the work that they do in bringing in quality O gauge/scale equipment to the hobby.

Nope, not Key/Kohs/MMW quality but a head above the rest not only in features but more importantly in fixing quality and fidelity issues.   And their models run great.

Nope, they aren't ultimate state of the art show quality models made of unobtainium and priced accordingly.  

Just great quality and accurate stuff that is worth the price.

Originally posted by PRRJim:

The PRR had some GP7s equipped with Steam generatoers for Passenger service.   I don't think they had any GP9s with
steam generators,   At that time they apparently had enough E7s, E8s, FP7s, Alco PAs, Rs3's and Baldwin psg sharks to
handle the remainining passenger requirements.

I would be interested in a  Torpedo Tube PRR GP7.

I think there were many Torpedo tube Geeps that other rr's have that have not been made. Also the Paducha Rebuilds would be a big hit too!

Rob,

I couldn't agree more, and let's acknowledge the pain and brain damage of trying to manufacture trains half a planet away, while coping with an ever changing Dollar value against other currencies, political upheaval, untrustworthy government officials on both sides of the Pacific, iffy shipping, as well as a host of other headaches that John Smith used to talk about....and all this on our behalf. We're the beneficiaries of all this trouble, and really...there are easier ways to make a living. So what's the takeaway here?.......Well, after having slept on the post I wrote last night and having applied liberal amounts of caffeine this morning, here's my take:         

First, we need more modelers in the Scale Camp, whether 2 rail or 3. That will come with time, but in the meanwhile, if you  would like to see "More, Better", then be your own ambassador for Scale Trains, 2 rail or 3. If you are reading this and think, "Nope, not me! I don't care!", that's quite alright. Just ignore my last statement. However, it is true....want "More, Better", you've have to keep asking for "More, Better".

Second, when someone like Scott offers "More, Better" then you have to step-up, keep your word and pay for "More, Better", and that includes not walking away from a reservation. Show appreciation through loyalty, and remember cheaper is not always better. An old cowboy saying goes roughly something like this, "New oats are $5/bushel, recycled ones....those are a bit cheaper." 

If Scott decides to do projects by deposit, I'm game, but I when I think about it, Transition Steam/1st Generation Diesel modelers are really no less of a risk for bolting to Brand M and Brand L than 3rd Gen Modelers for something less and cheaper. Bottom Line: If you make a reservation, make it your bond and honor it.  

If making a deposit, like 25%, will ensure that a Sunset SD40-2 or GP40-2 is made then I'm in. Actually, I'd be in for 2 or 3 of either model. I don't have a problem dropping $700 per locomotive on a premium model even with a plastic body.

Well if you really want people to dive in and pay the higher prices, you have to tempt them with stuff that is not available from another manufacturer. Whether it was poorly done or not, SD40, GP7 & 9's, H16-44, SD40T-2's...it's all out there, and a lot cheaper. How many more F units does this hobby need, at $700 a pop. Think outside the box just a bit. Let Lionel and MTH fill their catalogs with re-runs!

A little more outside the box - how about a small switcher (without a Belpaire firebox - everybody has done the PRR A5!).  I'm thinking an 0-4-0 or 0-6-0 (2-6-0??) with generic lines such as Atlas attempted with a slope back tender.   Great for those that want steam on a smaller layout. 

LAIDOFFSICK,

They are being tempted by something not available from Brand M and L: more accurate and crisper details, improved drive train, prototypical appearance, accurate paint scheme/color, etc. It's why some people buy brass models. As was said, there is nothing that Sunset can import that Brand M and Brand L can't rush to market as a cheaper and less than satisfying alternative to a prototypical scale model. So the difference in the $$$ is a better model. Some will ante up for that, others won't. What the former group is hoping to capture is enough reservations (and people willing to follow through on those reservations) so that the model can be made. Obviously, there weren't enough of said persons stepping up at this time to make the SD40-2 run a reality....however, that doesn't preclude another announcement that would garner enough reservations to carry the run, but the question must first be asked before the community can respond.   

I second CATNAP's statement - I would have no problem putting a deposit for SD40-2s or GP40-2s from Sunset.

Scott, if you have had a chance to read this thread, this may be the way to go for slow reservation models

Just my opinion but, deposits really don't help get a model into production at Sunset/3rd Rail/Golden Gate Depot, if there are insufficient reservations/orders/deposits to begin with. I would venture to guess that even if, say 12 or 15 people paid full price in advance, such would NOT get that model into production.

In the case of the SD40-2, MTH and Lionel beat Sunset to the punch years ago even with inferior models that don't do the prototype justice. The problem is that most O-scalers are fine with these models and only a select few want something more.

Midwestern Models Works is offering an SD40-2 but at close to $3,000 I don't want one that bad. Luckily, Atlas makes a fantastic SD40. I have a couple and I look forward to adding a few more and these can be had for less than $500. I know it's not the same as a Dash 2 but the models share a similar look. Despite that, however, I would love to add a few SD40-2's that actually looked like the real thing and not like the toys that MTH and Lionel have been serving up for the past 15-20 years.

Hot Water posted:

Just my opinion but, deposits really don't help get a model into production at Sunset/3rd Rail/Golden Gate Depot, if there are insufficient reservations/orders/deposits to begin with. I would venture to guess that even if, say 12 or 15 people paid full price in advance, such would NOT get that model into production.

More than your opinion HW. It is a fact. I recall at York years ago that some folks would complain about Sunset 3rd Rail taking money for reservations and not delivering. When I queried them they would say "well ABC says that a deposit is required so I paid ABC for my reservation."  Not true from Sunset - 3rd Rail's standpoint. Never has been and most likely never will be.

If a dealer says a deposit is required that is the dealer's option - not Scott's.

Now, as for the next dieseasel to be offered by Sunset I will say that plastic body units require about 500 or so units to be made. Brass requires about 150. Somewhere previous  in this post is the correct answer.

R. Heil  Sunset / 3rd Rail

Jim Scorse posted:

A little more outside the box - how about a small switcher (without a Belpaire firebox - everybody has done the PRR A5!).  I'm thinking an 0-4-0 or 0-6-0 (2-6-0??) with generic lines such as Atlas attempted with a slope back tender.   Great for those that want steam on a smaller layout. 

Atlas tried this with the ill-fated "Founders Series" USRA 0-6-0.

The one with the 3r/2r combined wheelsets.  Atlas answer to the "Proto 3:2" concept?

Forgive me for the "terminology gap" since I'm not a 3 rail modeler.  I know that the MTH is about swapping wheels and the Atlas was to use a wheel profile that fit both 3r and 2r applications.

Yeah, I'd LOVE an ALCo RS3 in brass with all the right "phases".   Sadly, seemingly unlikely as most are happy with the toy-like offerings the scale has to offer.  

Maybe we are back to the Tier 4's as being all the rage.

Hotwater,

RDUNNIII wrote, "The lack of reservations for the SD40-2 has made Scott wary of any "modern" locomotives. He would love to do a Tier 4, but if either Lionel or MTH announce one prior to delivery the dollars first crowd will walk away from their reservations so fast he won't be able to keep up with them. So the only possibility is deposit required reservations and he does not want to do that either and does not believe that will receive much support."

Hotwater wrote, "....deposits really don't help get a model into production at Sunset/3rd Rail/Golden Gate Depot, if there are insufficient reservations/orders/deposits to begin with. I would venture to guess that even if, say 12 or 15 people paid full price in advance, such would NOT get that model into production."

Gentlemen,

One of you implies that Scott would not produce a "modern" diesel locomotive even if he had full reservations for fear that some/many would be lost if Lionel or MTH were announce the same model. The other implies that even if those reservations were guaranteed with $$$ (which supposedly Scott doesn't want to do) the model(s) would not be produced. Both of you imply that, by your comments,  you are "close" to the "Company".

I don't wish to offend anyone, but really?.....which is it?....or are you both implying that Scott would not make any of these models regardless of the circumstances and do either one of you claim to officially speak for the company when you make these statements or are these just your opinions, absent of fact, without any connection to Sunset/3rd Rail? Enquiring minds want to know!  

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

I would be interested in a  Torpedo Tube PRR GP7.

I think there were many Torpedo tube Geeps that other rr's have that have not been made.

That would be about the only Geep I would have interest in! Nice clean lines.

Simon

Mike and others, actually, once our customers reserve a model, if we don't delay too long, we don't lose reservations when another announces the same. Customers are not that fickle in my experience. But the reservations do tell the demand. If they come pouring in like the E5 and E6s, then there is a demand for a good quality scale model of these from us specifically. We just follow the orders. We already have 300 reservations for the E5/E6s and only 140 and holding for the SD40-2s. Why, just not enough people want to pay so much for a highly detailed SD40-2, that simple. Gotta find another modlel that people do want in mass.

As the world economy and ours heats up, commodity prices are sky rocketing over here (China). Yesterday I was told the cost of a solid brass steam engine frame has almost tripled from just 2 years ago. Here we go again. Korea is imposing a minimum wage increase of 17%, China not sure, but usually they are in the 20% range. It means everyone will be raising prices in 2018. If they are not, then they are eating these increases.

But you, as customers should just sit back and look for these items that make you excited for your hobby. And we will do our best to make them as exciting as possible at a reasonable price as possible. That's the name of the game these days.

Great Suggestions guys. Thank you so much. Keep them coming. We are listening.

Scott Mann - China

My perspective...a celebration by the USPS in 1999...

in which are 5 iconic engines pulling 5 name trains, storied, colorful, admired into the ages.

Among the 5 are 4 engines which have been modeled in O3R by not just one, but several different manufacturers, different proportions, multiple variations of technology, etc., etc., blah, blah.

And.....yet.....the ATSF E-1 diesel, perhaps THE most heralded diesel creation...engine AND artwork by EMC/Leland Knickerbocker...of the so-called transition era, has NEVER been done in O3R....nor has its concurrent sibling, the B&O EA, surviving at the Baltimore museum to this day.

It really does baffle this common man in this hobby how this engine....this pair of engines...(and perhaps other variants based on the EMC industrial artists' creations to entice other railroads to consider purchase)....has been set aside as something too insignificant in the scheme of railroad history for the O3R market???  And, no.....E6's are NOT the same, good enough, adequate, sufficient....whatever the rationale.   At least as weighed against common criticism for all the other 'near-misses' or 'successful' O3R representations for the other 4 engines in the "All Aboard" stamp celebration.

Someone in another thread response on this same topic suggested (in effect) I get out my collection of chisels, flat b__st__rd files, masking tape, paint brushes, etc., and make my own EMC E1 from an E6.   Brilliant.  I'm sure this approach would solve a lot of frustrations for manufacturers gazing into their crystal balls.  We're all so willing and able to scratch build or bash to achieve our dreams.  It's such a useful answer for all such dreams, isn't it?

Nope.  In the meantime I've spent some $$$ buying THE most incredible HO models of the EMC E1 and EA (latter coming soon) from Broadway LImited....Sound, DCC, accurate-to-the-nines in detail and paint/finish...and will prominently/proudly display them between runs-by-invitation on friends' HO layouts.  

So, just some ruminating thoughts...

Meanwhile, back at the ranch....

Mike Caddell posted:

Gentlemen,

One of you implies that Scott would not produce a "modern" diesel locomotive even if he had full reservations for fear that some/many would be lost if Lionel or MTH were announce the same model. The other implies that even if those reservations were guaranteed with $$$ (which supposedly Scott doesn't want to do) the model(s) would not be produced. Both of you imply that, by your comments,  you are "close" to the "Company".

I don't wish to offend anyone, but really?.....which is it?....or are you both implying that Scott would not make any of these models regardless of the circumstances and do either one of you claim to officially speak for the company when you make these statements or are these just your opinions, absent of fact, without any connection to Sunset/3rd Rail? Enquiring minds want to know!  

Here is a radical thought, and I'm not trying to be a wise guy: Why not ask Scott himself?

Simon

Scott,

Agreed! and Thanks for listening and clarifying. Keep up the good work!

Some Exciting News Regarding the PAs:

We are adding operating (Manually) Louvers on the sides of each unit. They are actually built up from 20 or so brass pieces.  Interesting note, my father imported O Scale PAs in the 1980s and they too had manual louvers.

We will be putting 2 Rail pilots and Kadee mounts in every 3 Rail box.  SF and D&H models will have stainless steel panels (Nickel Plated Brass) applied as we have done in the past, not sprayed on, and the rain gutters will also be made of the same material, applied separately. That's something you don't get from anyone else.

We will make these mounts standard equipment on all our future Diesel offerings. The Alco PAs are going into production now and should be done in January or February. Looking forward to posting pictures of this fine scale offering as they are completed. Reservations are full, but as always people sometimes have to drop out, and that means stand by reservations get those models.  And yes, we never require a deposit, but some dealers do. More later.

Regards,

Scott Mann - China

Hey Scott, can you make sure there are enough 2.5mm screws in each loco to attache the Kadee mounts. All of my F7's were 2 screws short