Whatever happened to Q scale ?

You are just baiting me.  I need to get off the couch and solder some piping on one of the Challengers.

But I cannot resist!

Q- gauge was 1 3/16" gauge, using standard 1/4" scale rolling stock and .172 tread wheels.  Obviously even 1 3/16" is not the correct track gauge.

Enlarging the rolling stock was still O gauge, but it was called 17/64 scale.  Lionel, Scale Craft, and others produced 17/64 in the pre-war period.

Proto-48 is the correct way to have truly scale models, and it has caught on better than Q- Gauge ever did.  It is not for the faint-of-heart.  It requires precise track laying skills.  But it is beautiful.

O Scale is a compromise - it is driven by inertia, just as the 3-rail part of the hobby is.  There is no reason for the incorrect track gauge, and absolutely no need for a center rail in 2016.  There are some of us (me) who do not have the skills to operate anything less than a .155 tread wheel, and at least for me, 17/64 is the way to go.  I routinely mix 17/64 locomotives and 1/4" scale cars.  Nobody can tell.

My first excursion into O Scale - in 1955 - was with 1 1/8" gauge track.  I still have a loop, four locomotives, and maybe ten freight cars.  Truck sideframes are where they are supposed to be, and I get to keep wide wheels.

Is that more than you wanted to know?  Off to solder that generator pad.

Thanks Bob2, that's great information. I'm interested in the history of model railroading.

Some of the other forum discussion I saw suggested that Linn Westcott (editor of Model Railroader magazine 1961-1977) kept the "Q scale" designation going for a while but it was overtaken by Fine Scale advocates for O-gauge.

I will contest your statement of "absolutely no need for a center rail in 2016". O-gauge encompasses true O-scale and a traditional "toy train" faction, real diversity. Three-rail track allows easy operation of wyes and reverse loops on small layouts. For me, O-gauge is more of a toy-train hobby with vintage trains. I do my scale modeling in HO and I definitely don't want a center rail there!

Q gauge and fine scale are two different things. 1 3/16 is not 1.177, although probably the wheels would fit.

The center rail is absolutely necessary for Lionel collectors.  But have you noticed that there are some extremely realistic looking model railroads with three rail track?  That is where the third rail is useless - those folks know how to deal with wyes and loops - just like the HO guys.  And our wide gauge is a serious liability - we ought to narrow it up a bit.

Opinion.

ACE,

I spend many hours thinking about the train

Just found some related discussion here in a thread since locked:

https://ogrforum.com/t...822#3963862652681822

I wondered if it had morphed into Fine Scale, or "Proto-48"?  Sorta depends on how fine a nit you want to pick.  Micrometers and microscopes are beyond my level of interest.

the old Chicago Museum of Science and Industry layout was Q-scale, sadly replaced by an HO layout.

I'd not even heard of Q Scale!! Fascinating stuff.

Of course here in the UK we have several variations of scale all lumped under 'O' or '7mm'.

British O scale is 1:43.5, with a track gauge of 32mm - a bit too narrow in fact. 'Scale7' (our equivalentvof Proto48) uses a correct gauge of 33mm.

Continental European O is 1:45, with 32mm gauge, which I believe is accurate for the scale, or at least very close indeed. Then US O is 1:48 as you all know, but 3-rail here is very much a minority/"collectors" interest. No one here frets about short circuits or wiring problems in 2-rail. From my viewpoint this side of The Pond, 3-rail seems to be a serious drawback to the popularity & availability of 2-rail - especially Modern Era stuff - in the USA itself.

Again, just an opinion...

Wow....fascinating topic. My pal has 2 PRR steamers that are 17/64" to the foot in scale. These locos were hand built by a gentleman from Pitcairn, PA. The models are timeless beauties. They originally ran on outside 3rd rail. Now, they have a middle rail pick-up. Someday....they will be converted to 2 rail. While slightly larger than current 2 rail O Scale models....they look fantastic!

Still not sure why Q-Scale never caught and O-gauge took over.

Growing up with the MSI layout l was disappointed that Lionel was too big and AF was too small and no one was making Q.

One of my favorite "Model Railroader" articles is the November 1964 article of the Cambria and Black Mountain railroad.  This was a Q scale model railroad, which was owned by Marion Charles, but much of the equipment was supplied by Minton Chronkhite.  The article specifically mentions Q scale, and 1.177" scale.  From what I've seen in the "Model Railroader" archives (they offer a CD of everything thru 2009), it looks like Minton Chronkhite was doing 1 3/16".

I would have loved to see this railroad.  While the article shows quite a lack of scenery, these guys were doing timetable and train order operation (T&TO) all the way back then, and having a great time doing it. 

Others mentioned were Marion Charles, Herb Stone, Aylmer Keith, Jack Graham, Art Fowler, and Russ Miller.  From what I can see, it looks like Marion Charles formed the Balboa Park Model Railroad club.  A few mentions of him in MR from 1947 thru 1967, and then nothing.  Aylmer Keith is also mentioned in conjunction with the Balboa Park club in a 1947 issue.  Was the original club O scale, or Q scale? 

Regards.

GNNPNUT

I did not know any of those guys, but I knew Bud Cantlay, who at one time knew all of them.

The previous thread did not get "locked" - it apparently just died of old age, and the software won't let us post more comments.  It is worth re-reading.

Apparently some of us do get a bit uptight when errors are pointed out.  Most, in that old thread, seemed to indicate that the 1/16 nominal error cannot be seen.  Indeed, it is fairly easy to ignore, and most of my store-bought models remain 1/4" scale on 5' gauge.

I fly over Black Mountain once a week, and I used to fly with Minton Cronkhite's kid during lunch breaks.  I saw some Cronkhite locomotives, but I believe they were O gauge, not Q.

bob2 posted:

... The previous thread did not get "locked" - it apparently just died of old age, and the software won't let us post more comments.  It is worth re-reading... 

Apparently some old posts get "locked" after a certain time to prevent additional responses - I don't know why.

Thank You all for your comments on this subject.

If you ask the moderator the thread can be reopened?

I have a 17/64" scale trolley interurban knocking about the residence; it's a large bronze cast beast made by a chap named Elmer Norman before WWII.  Also have a 17/64 scale bronze Atlantic City Brilliner, which I plan to put into action using an MTH PCC floor one of these years. 

My writing chums and I have adopted "Q Scale" as a euphemism for 1:1 scale modeling nowadays...  ;-)

http://spontoon.rootoon.com/SPwRdoR3.html

Mitch

What happened to the rolling stock and buildings from the awesome Santa Fe Museum of Science and Industry Q scale layout in Chicago?

Does anyone have any of the original pieces? Are pix available?

Bill

aterry11 posted:

If you ask the moderator the thread can be reopened?

Apparently some old posts get locked, but that one wasn't, my oversight I guess. I just revived it.

Of gauge and scale

Ace posted:

bob2 posted:

... The previous thread did not get "locked" - it apparently just died of old age, and the software won't let us post more comments.  It is worth re-reading... 

Apparently some old posts get "locked" after a certain time to prevent additional responses - I don't know why.

Thank You all for your comments on this subject.

Just a FYI for future locked threads you might find.

Some threads got locked in error a while back due to a forum setting or something. If you post a question in the tech support forum to the webmaster about opening a locked thread, he will usually unlock it for you. In your post, be sure to include a link to the thread so he can easily find the thread.

Of course this would not apply to threads deliberately locked by the moderators.  

rtr12 posted:

Just a FYI for future locked threads you might find.

Some threads got locked in error a while back due to a forum setting or something. If you post a question in the tech support forum to the webmaster about opening a locked thread, he will usually unlock it for you. In your post, be sure to include a link to the thread so he can easily find the thread.

Of course this would not apply to threads deliberately locked by the moderators.  

 OK, thanks for the info. I was puzzled that some old threads were locked, and not because of any foul play.

gnnpnut posted:

One of my favorite "Model Railroader" articles is the November 1964 article of the Cambria and Black Mountain railroad.  This was a Q scale model railroad, which was owned by Marion Charles, but much of the equipment was supplied by Minton Chronkhite.  The article specifically mentions Q scale, and 1.177" scale.  From what I've seen in the "Model Railroader" archives (they offer a CD of everything thru 2009), it looks like Minton Chronkhite was doing 1 3/16".

I would have loved to see this railroad.  While the article shows quite a lack of scenery, these guys were doing timetable and train order operation (T&TO) all the way back then, and having a great time doing it. 

Others mentioned were Marion Charles, Herb Stone, Aylmer Keith, Jack Graham, Art Fowler, and Russ Miller.  From what I can see, it looks like Marion Charles formed the Balboa Park Model Railroad club.  A few mentions of him in MR from 1947 thru 1967, and then nothing.  Aylmer Keith is also mentioned in conjunction with the Balboa Park club in a 1947 issue.  Was the original club O scale, or Q scale? 

Regards.

GNNPNUT

Q scale really represented the track gauge 1.177 [1 3/16] which was correct for 1:48 O scale models, Cronkites display layouts in the 30s were all built using this correct track gauge, after WW2 O scale releases all used 1.250 [1 1/4"] gauge track. I don't really know why but I guess between Tru scale roadbed and Bob Peare track the 1 1/4" dimension was easier to deal with. In the early 50s Bob Smith rebuilt the Chicago Museum layout and replaced all track with 1 1/4 gauged track and replaced the original equipment  with more up to date ATSF models as they were paying for the display. I believe the models were owned by the ATSF and were distributed to their involved execs. Perhaps someone else can shed more light on both subjects. Pre-war Scale Craft had a pretty good line of 17/64s cars and locos correct for the 1 1/4 track gauge. I do not believe they were back in business after WW2.Just saying!

 

Does anyone have any of the original pieces? Are pix available?

Yes  I do. I bought them on EBay. I have all the Control Towers, The Mining set up and a farming building. One of the control towers and the mining operation is on my layout.

All are Minton Cronkhite creations from the 1939 MSI layout. 

This might be my last post for a while. See those two errors in my first three words? I cannot correct them. If I get rid of the keyboard, then go back, I can fix them , but it has become so painful . . .

I cannot post photos. I cannot edit a previously posted comment. I can get a lot of things with a single click, but most of the time it takes two or three. That is 2 or 3 clicks.

I am using an Apple iPad - probably not an uncommon device.

I will just look for a while. But the truly interesting stuff gets locked . . .

Hi Bob

I have my own forum and I'm an Administrator on two others; and we find that a lot of forums respond best to Firefox.  Can you download it and use it as your browser?

It might help.

Cheers

bob2 posted:

Tis mightbe my last post for a while. See those two errors in my first three words? I cannot correct them. If I get rid of the keyboard, then go back, I can fix them , but it has become so painful . . .

I cannot post photos. I cannot edit a previously posted comment. I can get a lot of things with a single click, but most of the time it takes tow or ree. That is 2 or 3 clicks.

Iam using an Apple iPad - probably not an uncommon device.

Iwill just look for a while. But the truly interesting stuff gets locked . . .

Bob if the problem is navigating around the forum website with your Ipad if feasible do your self a favor and buy an inexpensive laptop [they all run windows 10 now] about 350.00 should get you a good laptop, I have been using an Acer for 5 + years running Windows Vista and I have no problems posting,pics editing or any other function on the forum, you can't beat a keyboard JMO 

Ace posted:

Just found some related discussion here in a thread since locked:

https://ogrforum.com/t...822#3963862652681822

I re-opened the thread referenced above yesterday so comments can now be made there if you so desire!!

Alan

Ace posted:

aterry11 posted:

If you ask the moderator the thread can be reopened?

Apparently some old posts get locked, but that one wasn't, my oversight I guess. I just revived it.

Of gauge and scale

I re-opened it and apparently some of you noticed yesterday.....

bob2 posted:

This might be my last post for a while. See those two errors in my first three words? I cannot correct them. If I get rid of the keyboard, then go back, I can fix them , but it has become so painful . . .

I cannot post photos. I cannot edit a previously posted comment. I can get a lot of things with a single click, but most of the time it takes two or three. That is 2 or 3 clicks.

I am using an Apple iPad - probably not an uncommon device.

I will just look for a while. But the truly interesting stuff gets locked . . .

Bob...as you can see, I went in and had no problem correcting the errors in your post to which you referred.  I have no idea why you would be having problems because I am certainly no IT person!  How about mentioning your problem over on the forum tech category and see if Rich can help you....

Thanks,

Alan

Alan - I participate in two other forums about O Scale and three airplane forums.  I can post photos in all of them.  I can edit in all of them.  I can get places with a single click in all of them.

If you corrected my typos, my post then becomes semi- incomprehensible.

I enjoy participating, but I need at least an easy way to edit my typing, which often screws up in between words.

Recently my PC was down and I was stuck  using an Ipad to make posts.  I found it somewhat difficult to position the curser when editing a post.  If I had to use the the IPad routinely I'd buy a Bluetooth keypad to use with it.  Posting pictures and video to the forums with the IPad  was easy as the images were on the device that took them. 

I us my iPad exclusively and have no problems posting pictures, editing any post or anything else.

I know this subject was submitted  a long time ago but just wanted to put my comments in. I looked for a Q scale forum but apparently there is not enough interest in it anymore. Finding this comment I decided to write mine for anyone who may be interested. Q scale of course is 17/64 scale in which the 1.25 gauge track is in correct proportion with the model. A party by the name of Joseph Dorazio of Philadelphia area scratched a lot of PRR steam in Q. The New York Central System Historical Society has acquired the Niagara #6000 in Q and I thought some may want to see it. Now it is crude by today's standards but it was made probably in the 50's. I like the heft and massive appearance of it.  See what you think.

Enjoy, Sam Shumaker NYCSHS archivist. 

I think there's still some confusion in this thread about what "Q" refers to. "Q gauge"  is just a variant rail gauge for O-scale models (1/48), in which the rails are spaced 1-3/16" (1.1875") apart instead of the traditional 1-1/4" (1.250"), and is therefore closer to a 1/48 representation of the actual gauge of U.S. railroads (56.5"), although still not quite correct.

For 1/48 (O Scale) the correct spacing is 1.177 (56.5"/48 = 1.1770833" taken to six places). 

I don't think there was ever something called "Q scale."  

Another way to approach the problem of too-wide traditional O-gauge track (1-1/4") is to increase the size of locomotives and rolling stock slightly so that the traditional 1-1/4" track gauge now represents a full-scale gauge of less than 5 feet : hence the adoption of 17/64" scale, a ratio of 1/45.12 (instead of 1/48, or O Scale). In relation to models built using this slightly larger scale, traditional O-gauge track now represents something very close to a scale 4 feet 8-1/2" inches (56.5"/45.12 = 1.2522").  In other words, in 17/64" scale, rails should be gauged at 1.2522" in order to correctly represent the full-scale gauge of 56.5" -- and this is very, very close to traditional O-gauge.

"Lionel, Scale Craft, and others produced 17/64 in the pre-war period."

Can you provide the Lionel model numbers and types? I would love to see and read more about them.

How long have you been in this hobby of o scale? I have bee in it since at least 1977,  40 years,

 and I can guarantee you there was a Q scale. The old timers at that time used to talk about it all the time so yes there was a Q scale.

Continuing the Q scale discussion my research tells me that Lee B. Green, Miloco and Miniscale companies manufactured Q scale kits. These can be found in Model Railroader catalogs of the 1930's and 40's and possibly later. It was referred to as Q scale.

Good luck with that.  Q gauge was close to the proper gauge for 1/4" scale.  It had nothing to do with 17/64, which is the proper scale for O gauge track.

I have both - sort of.  I build in 17/64 scale.  I have about five  locomotives and a string of freight cars that roll on track gauge very close to Q gauge.  Two vastly different concepts.

I used to fly airplanes with Minton Cronkhite's kid.  Minton was the Q gauge guy.

None of that is opinion.

I've been active in O scale for a long time, too, but I don't remember hearing the term "Q scale." Maybe I just didn't know the right people.

On the other hand, the Wikipedia article on model railroad scales and gauges does define "Q" as 1:45 in its inventory of popular scales (with a comment about its being used by traction modelers).  Apparently Q uses a ratio of 1:45, which makes it sound like another name for 17/64 modeling. Either way, this ratio makes 1-1/4" O gauge track the right size.

By the way, what kind of a guarantee are you offering? 

No. I am telling you that Q gauge is 1 3/16" gauge, or very close to the correct gauge for 1/4"=1'0".  The Muesum and Santa Fe in Chicago was originally built to this gauge by Minton Cronkhite, then converted to 5' gauge (1 1/4") by Bill Lenoir.

I found out about Q gauge when I explained my 1 1/8" gauge idea to Bill Thomas in Philadelphia around 1958.  He said "why didn't you just go to Q gauge?"  Bill, at the time, was as famous as Joe Dorazio.  I never met Joe, but went to high school with a relative of his.

Lionel made the UP streamliner to 17/64, apparently because the scaled- down version looked like S scale on O gauge track.   Is possible that the B6 switcher is 17/64, and I am almost positive that the Williams B6sb is 17/64.

Bob2: To whom are you addressing your comment?  I agree that "Q gauge" properly denominates a track gauge of 1-3/16" for use with 1:48-scale equipment.  "Q scale" (if such a term was ever widely used) apparently refers to a scale proportion of 1:45, essentially the same as 17/64 scale. Is there a disagreement, or misunderstanding, between us?