When do Modern command controlled locomotives become obsolete?

I think the PS1s tend to do okay in that many that I see for sale are the Premiere or Scale units.  Even if they have PS1 boards the prices are still decent for the sellers.  Maybe not what they would like, but by the time you add a PS2 upgade you still get back up in price compared to buying a PS2 railking new.  Scale is important to many in the hobby so any of the scale units do better. 

In the long run the prices will drop significantly, there just are not enough young people who give a rip about this hobby to come buy this stuff as our older statesmen need to sell off their collections, forget PW this is true for the modern stuff too. 

My #1 rule is that nothing on my layout was bought as an investment.  I will never look at anything I purchase as an investment.  It is for my pleasure and enjoyment,  If I buy it for $250 and later sell it for $150 then I figure it cost me $100 to enjoy myself and I can live with that. 

I don't keep stuff, I sell it and upgrade or upgrade then sell it.  I just don't form attachments to any of my trains as I know there will be other things to enjoy coming up in the future.

I ran my trains on average 6 hours a day every day of December. If I wore out a train from a ton of use I would be happy.  The LHS near me says they run their trains 8 hours a day and they get about 3 years out of them before they die completely. 

I figure there is a baseline value to modern command control trains because just the cost of the PS2 upgade kit is a known value.  A used train that can accept the upgrade is a known value.  So IMHO the value will always be a function set off a baseline from those two values.  i.e.  I will not pay for a PS1 if the value of the PS1 engine and a PS2 upgrade kit exceeds or equals the value of a brand new PS2 engine or a used PS2 engine for that matter.

There is no single definitive answer to your question, just as there is no answer really to "when does a laptop PC or or a car become obsolete?"  It is partly a matter of personal preference for features and performance.  No matter how old, if cared for and kept in good repair a computer or a car will do what they did on the day you bought them, ten, even twenty years later.  It is the same for the earliest PS1 or TMCC locomotives.  I have several of both that perform perfectly.

But newer locos have better features: finer and more linear control, much better sound, nifty if almost silly things like a swinging bell and whistle steam, and perhaps better detail on which the eye can feast.  At some point, as with the car and computer, you decide that repairing the old model isn't worth it versus buying a new replacement, when you consider the better performance.  And perhaps the gap gets so wide you do that even if the old one needs no repair at all.

With that caveat - that a lot of this is my preference, and noting that I own some early PS1 and TMCC locos that run perfectly, I the current pace seems to suggest that premium model trains become obsolete in about fifteen years, give or take.  Data points for me that support my opinion are that I have some very early PS1 and TMCC locos which I don't really like to run because the sound and linearity of response aren't as good as modern - they are getting closer to fifteen than ten years old, and my JLC Big Boy, which is approaching ten years old and still very much good enough for me. 

If you are buying trains as an "investment" I would strongly recommend getting into a different market.  

While you may not be able to find the electronic components that were "original" equipment you can find replacements that are usually cheaper, easier to deal with and often better performers than what came with the engine.  If you buy the trains to actually play with/use this is a win/win.  The toy doesn't really get old.  You can "refresh" it whenever you like.  

If you buy the trains as models that will sit on a shelf (aka shelf queens) the internal electronics don't matter because they are never used.  Admire the model for it's detail or whatever it was about that engine that caught your eye.

This only becomes an issue if you try to apply true "mint in the box" collector mentality.  These items were not produced in small enough quantities to become "collectors" and, as you stated, an operator will be more concerned with how it runs rather than it's alleged intrinsic value.  This is why some of the engines are not "holding their value".  In some cases they were  overpriced to begin with and no one noticed or cared.

I agree with Mack, Lee and Chuck.

It, is difficult to say, or choose from.

It, is unfortunate, after desiring a specific locomotive, for its' bells and whistles and if, affordable, sometimes the price, that after running the unit a short while, it brakes down.

Hopefully, there is still a warranty period left on it, if, not then more money has to be spent to get it up and running.  For the most part these newer bells and whistles locomotive, regardless of how cheap it originally cost, is still costly!

That, is my penny worth!

Ralph

Basically the only thing that make an engine obsolete is when you can no longer get repair parts to fix it and even then there is some value as a shelf queen. From an operators perspective as long as you can run an engine conventionally, and so far the manufacturers have not taken that away, you should be able to go forever

Steve

No train ever becomes obsolete.  All the command systems today allow a user to run non-command engines as command engines.  Both systems (MTH & Lionel) support backward compatibility.  Upgrades are also an option.  Any non-command engine can be upgrade to command control.  No - it won't have the latest features on it, or the finer details, but the upgrades allow the train to be used in a command environment.  As for parts availability, its rare when an engine cannot be repaired.  Usually the secondary market picks up and makes replacement parts when the manufacture no longer makes parts.  The parts issue has been debated over many years.  And there are those that will state that parts for the new stuff will no longer be available.  Usually, there are options out there to fix a locomotive even if the parts are not the original ones.

As for the value of trains.... Modern locs tend to lose their value when remakes are made.  Who wants to spend retail price for a 10 year old engine when a new version is out for the same price?

This is a very interesting thread!

And the more people who poast answers, the more and you will see why it is impossible to answer the question definitively.  Aside from differences in the very personal preferences about how important people think it is to have the latest "best" technology, some people interpret obsolete differently.  To me, it means the features/performance/compatibility of the device/thing have fallen so far behind current offerings as to render it undesirable by comparison.  Others think it means they are so out of date you can't get parts, etc.  

Something to think about is that postwar locos are "obsolete" by just about any standard, yet they are still very sought after and treasured locos.  Still, as I said above, the earliest PS1 and TMCC you asked about, as I said - at least to me, have fallen noticeably behind the newer equipment - at least as I see them - particularly in the areas of sound quality, cruise control, and linearity of running in conventional.

quote:

 As for parts availability, its rare when an engine cannot be repaired.  Usually the secondary market picks up and makes replacement parts when the manufacture no longer makes parts.  The parts issue has been debated over many years.

Lots of third party replacement parts are available for prewar and postwar Lionel trains. I was not aware of there being third party replacement parts for Modern era Lionel. What sort of stuff is available?

They're already obsolete!  Just like that brand new latest "mobile device" or peecee is even as you take delivery.  A sad fact of the digital world.  The good news is you can always gut the electronics and still use them conventionally.

Pete

Most of the trains I have are "obsolete", being that they're mostly Lionel engines with RailSounds 1.0 and 2.0. Really the only thing I have to worry about is the electronics going bad, but they have held up extremely well in my view, and if you go to a good friend or an electronics expert there is hope to replace them.

My Lionel B-6 Switcher from 1989 had the circuit board go bad about a year ago after 6 years of continuous use, and a friend gave me a replacement board that he stripped from an older engine he was upgrading. My B-6 operates just as good as it originally was.

Plus, in my POV, prices of certain TMCC locos have been going down and some have stayed high. Mostly the rarer stuff, such as the majority of equipment from 1999, have maintained their value. On the other hand, stuff from 1995 to 1998, as well as 2001 to 2003 have gone way down.

IMO, obsolescence is just the presenting question.  Product durability and the ability of one to be content with what one has is at the core. 

Many times obsolescenence is merely the product of effective advertising and industry promotion.  In the hobby world, what is true need?  Sometimes I wonder if my "wanter"  is in need of adjustment. 

I love it when some otherwise excellent models are perceived as obsolute.  They make great purchases. tt

Part of this is market stuff and others specific to trains.

Part of the reason prices were high on early MTH is there was no other comparison.  Lionel was not producing a Premier like engine.  Since there was demand, MTH could command a high price.  Then Lionel got going and volume went up and prices dropped.

As far as obsolete electronics I think that is a big red herring.  MTH has made replacement boards for each board that parts to build are no longer available.  Lionel has the ERR upgrades.  So life goes on.  At the basic level a train is a train.  It has a chassis, wheels, and gears and a motor.  How you power that motor is up to you.  Even on a Post war engine you can pull a bad e-unit out and hard wire the motor for one direction.  So keeping an engine running is easy.

After market parts, and machine shops can make what you need to keep them going.

As far as Command control specific, things just keep getting more features and smoother control.  G

Jay, I agree with statement made in above postings relating to locomotive value and purpose for buying new locomotives.

If you are going to buy a new locomotive hoping that it will hold its value then, I agree, go into a different hobby.  The majority of forum members and O gaugers as a whole enjoy operating their trains, having fun, helping others and do NOT worry about the future value of their trains.

If you are worried about new locomotives going obsolete (for whatever reason) then you should definitely pick another hobby.  I agree that the closest a new locomotive will get to being obsolete is the lack of repair parts/electronics in the future.  I believe O gaugers will prevail one way or another in the future.  Reproduction parts being made, small business which will repair your boards, etc.  But the bottom line here is enjoying the trains now, having fun and sharing the hobby with others.

If you are worried about the questions you are asking in your initial post then I suggest moving on to another hobby that your worries might not exist.

Steve, Lady and Tex

My sense of this is that while no one expects a reasonable return of profit in reselling engines with obsolete electronics, it is an financial investment none the less. Durability from example to example is random from the days of MPC to  today's Legacy models. Some last, some don't. If you are looking the predictability, it isn't there. Just read the contrasting reports "I have had such and such for years..no problem" versus "It fried without warning" Just like any electronic device. 

As far as future repairability I look at demographics..look at K-Line. Here today, gone tomorrow. The market will shrink as we older heads move on. Lionel came out of bankruptcy in 2008..Could it happen again? Who knows? 

I would not be losing any sleep over durability. The only suggestion would be conventional engines but they are prone to failure as well but most often, its an easier task to repair them. Asking for predictability and durability in the same sentence is like asking for a perfect summer day 365 days a year.

Trains may not be a money-making investment, but they certainly hold their value a lot better than some other collectables.

Frankly I sense some "wishful thinking" in the original post. "Gee I hope the value drops like a rock because I want some of those locomotives..."

Right there is exactly why they hold their value. People still WANT them. They're not going to lose value because of "obsolete" electronics because people still buy them anyway.

...Or less.  A great example is the Lionel H-7.  The TMCC version MSRP was $1650 new.  The Legacy version MSRP was $1350.  So, for $300 dollars less, you got Legacy.  And that's at full price.

With careful shopping, you could find a Legacy H-7 for $1150.  Which is what I did.  Difference of $500 from the TMCC version.  Plus, easier to locate one.

HMM...Easy choice there.  Hated to spend the money for a new H-7, but realize now it was worth it.

However, the Legacy Big Boys are still selling strong as of now.  It'll be interesting to see what happens to those prices when the Vision Line Big Boy is out.  My prediction (not worth anything) is they will remain somewhat strong sellers.  I think the VL BB will be in such small numbers people will still want a Legacy version who can'/won't pay the money for a VL BB.

Someone will always make electronics to fix/upgrade engines when needed.  I am sure of that.  Which is why I have made the investment in the steamers I have bought this year.

Just my thoughts.  Great topic, have really enjoyed reading this!

>>>This only becomes an issue if you try to apply true "mint in the box" collector mentality.  These items were not produced in small enough quantities to become "collectors" and, as you stated, an operator will be more concerned with how it runs rather than it's alleged intrinsic value.  This is why some of the engines are not "holding their value".  In some cases they were  overpriced to begin with and no one noticed or cared.<<

You've made good points here. Also you've given a valid reason as to why true collectors place the importance of collecting within an established era above the product itself no mater how expensive or intrinsic it may be. 

They are just toys, and I play with my toys.  I love my MTH PS-1 locomotive fleet, and when I want to add a "new" locomotive to my fleet, I first look to see if there was a PS-1 version.  But then I run them on a FasTrack carpet layout in my living room where my 1 year old is crawling around after it.  And sometimes he catches it!  Sure, I've had locomotives get broken that way, and I could get some parts but not others, so I figure out a way to make it work and keep going.  They are toys that have brought great joy to many old and young within the walls of my home.  And if it gets to the point I can't run it anymore, then I gut it, strip it, and clean it making it dummy that I leave out on the floor for the kids to pick up, and push around on the floor or on the track (Usually to the "grating" sound of it running on the roadbed instead of on the rails.  I love FasTrack for this, it's some tough stuff.).

Some really good comments in this thread...

I don't view trains as becoming obsolete.  Like many others, I also don't purchase them as an investment nor do I pay much attention to marketing hype.  I buy what I like and what fits the needs of my layout / prototype / financial situation.

My trains get very light use by the way.  Layout construction is occupying most of my time with little running.  That might change as major pieces of scenery get done.

Technology creep / obsolence?  Well, after 30+ years in software / hardware development work I can tell you that reliability is the key asset there, IMO.  DCS never fulfilled its promise in that regard; it's off my list.  Legacy is overkill, plus it's a closed system.  TMCC is right in the sweet spot as far as I'm concerned; it does everything I need.  I have backups of critical components (command base, CAB-1 remotes) that will probably outlast me. 

George

I read a lot of this thread, and I wanted to contribute, but something about it kept gnawing at me. Then, like a Flash! (yeah, right) I realized that I feel that the entire

point of the thread, indeed, the original question, is perhaps, with respect, bogus.

Our models have no purpose in life - yours or theirs - other than visual, aural and tactile

stimulation (we won't include museum or commercial displays). They cannot become

"obsolete" any more than a fine spring morning can become "obsolete". We are supposed

to be model railroaders, and if one finds a nice piece at a good price that contains

yesterday's electronics - working or not - that do not satisfy, he or his agent should be able to repair, replace or discard said guts and make the piece useable in the current

or chosen environment, or put it on the shelf as a display, or find another field of interest.

So long as model railroading and model railroaders exist, no piece can become "obsolete":

Every one of your DC can motored O-gauge PS-X, TMCC/Legacy locos could be electrically/electronically gutted except for wires from the motor(s) to the frame and to the rollers, placed on the track and sent plain old DC current down the 3-rail track

in order to function. No sound, Command, blah-blah - but it would pull your

trains. We lose sight of this sometimes. 

Worn out, abused or junked - yes, but that's the owner's fault. Not obsolete.

As long as parts can be cannibalized, the locos will run. For example, the Arkansas and Missouri RR is mostly all Alco, today, after how many years?

They're only obsolete if you decide or want them to be.

I would say only when you can not run them anymore. Providing parts are always available then they hold a very long future.

Value is in the eyes of the beholder. I got into the hobby for one reason, and that is personal satisfaction. I have many early TMCC engines (and some converted to TMCC) and hold them as valuable to me today as when I purchased them.

If you worry about value, find a new hobby or you will  constantly be taking antacids. 

It all goes back to the old Adage:

It is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. No More, No Less.

Last year I traded in my 13 year old SUV on a new one.

The old one was starting to get rust and that's the death sentence around here.

Otherwise Obsolete is what ever you make it to be. Nothing Else matters.

I still prefer the sounds in my old PS-1 Galloping Goose to the sounds in the brand new gift this Christmas PS-3 one. I will be adding Command control to them (yes, I have 2, different numbers and paint jobs).

Once I get them in Command Control I see no reason to ever retire them.

And I'm another one of those guys watching for Old Premier PS-1 engines to upgrade. I can't afford new Premier so that's my way in.

Will the Vision Line Big Boy make the Legacy Big Boy obsolete?

No Way, it is being made in far too limited numbers and at far too much price to affect the Legacy units.

I don't think anything becomes obsolete. I still run trains that are more than 50 years old. I have added electronics to numerous older locos with no previous electronic control. Anything that is recently, (last 10-15 years) made, same deal, all electronics can be upgraded. All you need to do is provide proper maintenance to the mechanicals.

When something so cool and neat comes along that you forget the old stuff?

This post is so hard to read. Suggest you create paragraphs.

When they go brain dead!!!!!

I've bought a number of 'dead' command locos.....only to transplant a WbB DCU in place and run like new.....minus sounds and gadgets!!!

As far as I'm concerned only the electronics become obsolete not the locomotive.  This is the advantage we conventional operators have over the others.   If you're looking for your purchases to increase in value you're in the wrong hobby.  You'd be better off collecting stamps.

Agree with the above....I think this is a great topic.  My short answer is that there is no real answer because so much depends on the individual.

I own a smattering of locomotives, about 6 post-war classics through inheritances and 15-20 through my own purchases over the last 12 years.  My purchases started with conventional traditional-sized locomotives with railsounds, but then I caught the TMCC bug.  I even had TAS upgrade two modern conventional locos.  After that, I realized I wasn't using TMCC near to the degree I could and, after downsizing my layout, I realized I couldn't run more than one train on any mainline, so I switched to conventional Williams since I wanted variety, not gingerbread. 

Additionally, my widest mainline right now has 42" and 34" (old Marx track), so I was becoming extremely limited in options as the TMCC and Legacy options were moving to the scale engines needing 54" minimum curves and above.

With power masters, I can use my CAB-1 and get most out of what I ended up really wanting from TMCC.

So, now I'm probably 1/3 post-war conventional, 1/3 modern conventional no sounds, and 1/3 TMCC with sounds.

Since I'm not nor expect to ever be a Scale Guy, I don't see anything I own as obsolete.  I really like every engine I own, and I can justify everyone of them as belonging.  My PW engines are 50-65 years old and they're as great as they were then.

What REALLY intrigues me is the new LionChief Plus.  Had that been around in 2000, I would've bought that instead of the traditional with TMCC.  But, then again, isn't that really the market segment LionChief Plus is going after? 

In fact, I'm so intrigued by LionChief Plus that I anticipate my next purchases to be a Polar Express set with LionChief and the B&O Pacific.  My youngest loves her RC Thomas set.  I've twice been very close to buying a WBB O27 Hudson and then adding TMCC with ERR boards, but I'm thinking the B&O LionChief Pacific is a better choice for me at the moment.

Great thread.

First of all thak you for all the great replies! I have really enjoyed reading everyone's different opinions.

I would like to clarify some of the intent of my original post and see if there are still more opinions out there.

My discussion of value was not driven by any desire I have to see my trains hold their value. I buy trains for my kids and I to play with. I want to pass on a love for toy trains that my dad passed to me. I won't be selling my trains as they will be the childhood memories for my kids. I brought up value because I am continually surprised to see modern locos sell for such a high price. As many of you have pointed out that is obviously due to demand....and as some one correctly reasoned, I would love to be able to buy earlier TMCC locos at a greatly reduced price when compared to their Legacy counterparts. Oh well I will just have to keep saving up for those big loco purchases!

My discussion of obsolescence was driven by my belief that the electronic components used to make early TMCC trains and systems will disappear. This has already been proven with the elimination of the Cab 1 controller. I also believe that this will happen to the earlier boards and components for locos. Once the component manufacturers stop producing parts, even the smaller companies who make secondary parts will be unable to make the components.

I have to agree that a train can never be completely obsolete as we love them as models and can always get rid of the electronics and go old school and have a great toy train. No argument there!

I also appreciate the recommendation to break my post into paragraphs....but sadly when I post on my iPad it seems to crunch everything together. Perhaps that is because I have an obsolete iPad 1!!! Hahahaha.

Again thanks for all the great responses.

Jay in Ottawa

This is a great post.   I'm going to sit back and check out the response!!

Some time ago I needed replacement parts. Got some titanium crews and a bar rod to keep me on the road..then there was that stainless tube they retrofitted into my heart. 

Obsolete parts..yeh but theres always bailing wire and chewing gum. It could be worse. 

Amen to that electroliner!

Jay in Ottawa

I'm in a somewhat unique position in that I have no where to build a layout (although that may change this year), but my focus has been on locomotive building.  Since there aren't many models of Reading locomotives on the market, I've been building my own out of literally whatever chassis fits the bill.  PS1, PS2, conventional, TMCC, I have them all, and it really doesn't matter, because whenever I get around to building a layout, if I'm dead set on having one system, I can gut them all and put whatever guts I need in them.  ERR keeps making their boards smaller and cheaper... I wouldn't be surprised if 10 years from now the full monte will be under $100 (inflation not withstanding.) 

With breakthroughs I'm seeing in rapid prototyping and 3D printing, I think we're about to see an age where obsolescence is less of a thing all across the board.  Want to restore a 1987 Mustang but Ford doesn't make any of the plastic parts anymore?  No worries, someone somewhere scanned a good one and you can get it fresh off the 3D printer.  Circuit board fried?  No worries, this computer the size of 50cent piece replaces EVERY computer in your 90s car.  A new world is just around the corner, and I don't think anything is going to be obsolete.

They become obsolete the same as they always have: the minute you drive them off the showroom floor.

My discussion of obsolescence was driven by my belief that the electronic components used to make early TMCC trains and systems will disappear. This has already been proven with the elimination of the Cab 1 controller. I also believe that this will happen to the earlier boards and components for locos. Once the component manufacturers stop producing parts, even the smaller companies who make secondary parts will be unable to make the components.

If there is a demand for something, some one will make it.  There are still parts being cranked out for PW stuff.  The CAB1's final nail in the coffin may well have been the lack of critical parts but it has been replaced by a more capable CAB-1L.  

I've already replaced original LCRU's in some of my early command control engines with 3rd party "upgrades" so from a functional stand point these engines either work as well or better than they did with the original equipment.

Legacy parts are still available from Lionel.

There are folks on the forum that will do repair work on some of these early model circuit boards.  It is very rare that the critical information chips are damaged on these boards.  It is usually power components that fail and those can be replaced.

I'm not sure what critical parts you are referring to about not being available in the future?  I'd worry less about this and concentrate more on playing with your trains.