Where Is Plug and Play?

The problem with doing something like plug & play in O gauge is there is too many companies that make some type of control system and use what ever electronics with them. O gauge doesn't have a set standard to conform to like H.O. or G scale, so the companies do what ever sells. Lionel, MTH and Williams have some type of control system that is for their own equipment. Lionel & MTH have a version of command control for their own stuff, Williams now has remote control for uncoupling & unloading on certain Williams by Bachmann freight cars.

DCC is used with both H.O. and G scale from what I know, maybe others use DCC, I am not sure.

Lee Fritz

In the HO and N world, there's even "drop in" DCC decoders that replace the lighting circuit board in some locomotives.  No 8 or 9 pin plug required.

S-Helper Service included an 8 pin plug on all of their S Scale locomotives, but it looks like MTH may do away with it.  Won't know until they start to ship product.

Rusty

Electroliner, your suggestion is a very good one.  Therefore, it will never be implemented.

O always seems to be the quirky stepchild of scales and it cannot seem to agree on much of anything and splitting the market in two seems.well..stupid. Then you split it further without thinking of the economies to the buyer and seller. I posted a separate subject asking why production could not be streamlined using the robotic techniques of assembly that are used in adding small parts in computers..or automated jet cutting by CAD  instead the expense of making molds and ownership of same.It seems O has one foot in the past and one foot halfway into the present. As this scenario develops of channeling the buyer into A versus B it seems overly convoluted..make one engine that can be upgraded does not seem to be rocket science.  

Rusty, some very good information. I did not know about S scale using plug & play.

Like I have mentioned before, maybe not here, I feel that O gauge needs to have a common remote control system for everybody to use and not one for each brand(K-Line, Lionel, MTH, Williams by Bachmann). 

Currently Lionel has a new version of command control called Legacy, not sure if they will license or lease the agreement for other companies.

Lionel has tried to make a system more standard for O gauge by licensing TMCC for use by other companies. That is a good starting place! Now if other companies would follow.

Lee Fritz

HO and N, where DCC rules, did not have one dominant manufacturer, unlike large scale and O three rail.  In large scale, there were at least two systems, one by Märklin and one by LGB.  As LGB and Märklin faded somewhat from large scale, other manufacturers became more prominent and DCC got some traction, although there are various radio control systems in use.  In  O three rail, Lionel was basically the only major player when command control was introduced in 1995-96 or so.  As a second major player evolved in the late 1990s, MTH, they felt a need to have their own system and not depend on Lionel in any way.  There you have it. Different histories and different imperatives.  Never say never, but I'd be surprised if Lionel and MTH ever settled on a single system, unless one acquired the other, and they'd probably put their own system in the equipment (not DCC), as MTH has done with Lionel Corporation Tinplate, which comes with either conventional or DCS/PS3.  Legacy isn't an option, nor DCC, in these Lionel branded trains made by MTH.

If inexpensive DCC systems suitable for O three rail became available, that would change things, but DCC systems for three rail are currently more expensive by far than the existing options with TMCC/Legacy and DCS, and not widely available.

Also I'm pretty sure Legacy and DCS have far more options than DCC.

I can say DCS does for sure.

DCC is great for standard ops, but DCS can do more engine specific items.

And it can be different in each Engine and Even then can be Changed by Uploading a new sound file.

Not even Legacy can do that.

The amount/number of O gauge trains manufactured doesn't warrant the investment in a robotic line.  The production numbers just aren't there.

The lack of standards regarding the electronics is also partially traceable to this factor.  There just aren't enough units produced to make this viable.  Even if you combine ALL production of ALL the players you would still come up short of what N, G, or HO does from any one of those scales from any one manufacturer/importer.  Lionel did look at DCC (and some other options as well) BEFORE embarking on developing TMCC.  Both DCS and TMCC/Legacy include the ability to continue to run older conventional train WITHOUT MODIFICATION.  This was part of the deal breaker regarding DCC for Lionel.

Lionel TRIED to offer plug and play upgrades for TMCC engines back in 98.  These went over like a lead balloon.  The units came with a modular chassis and an E-Unit board and basic signal sounds (horn/bell/whistle) which could be swapped out for a TMCC receiver and/or RailSounds.  These did not sell well.  People who were so inclined to do upgrades were using much more capable boards/assemblies from TAS, DD and ERR.

The folks that wanted higher level of tech either bought it out of the box or kitbashed it.  The ones that didn't bought conventional and enjoyed what they had.  Not much of a market for plug and pray upgrades.

I think the mainstream future of O gauge and G are likely in some advanced version of LionChief Plus or a similar system.  This system works and plays well with the other command systems (Legacy/DCS) and with any power supply. It operates on conventional.  It doesn't need a Legacy base or DCS TIU. All that's needed is setting it up so that it allows you to use a remote with more than one engine and they're in full command business.  It wouldn't cost much to do this, so I'm expecting it's going to happen, eventually. That's the closest we're going to come to plug and play in our lifetimes .  DCC is a non-starter for cost reasons, and anything else is a non-starter for the reasons Chuck mentions. Just no real market.

S Scale is about to be infested with Legacy and DCS, but the common thread will be DCC. 

The new Flyer SD70's and ES44's are DCC compatible (works pretty good, too) and MTH will be installing Proto 3 on the former S Helper service stuff, which I understand is DCC compatible.

Rusty

quote:

 As a second major player evolved in the late 1990s, MTH, they felt a need to have their own system and not depend on Lionel in any way.

Let's not start a new round of brand wars. MTH had their reasons.

MTH gives you the closest with PS-3.  Whether in G, O, S, or HO the PS-3 system can run on DC or AC (early HO no AC).  They can run DCC or DCS or conventional.  So if DCC or conventional is your thing, the MTH products will be plug and play.

Not sure how Lion Chief even Plus will give you all that.  Is Lionel going to under cut Legacy and CAB-1 L?  I think LC may be doing the Lead Balloon also, at least by what is going on with the Internet pricing.  Time will tell.  G

The older K-Line remote operating cars have a remote by K-Line that needs to be used with them, WBB remote might work but not the other way around.

WBB or Williams has a remote controlled operating log unloader that only the WBB remote will work with it, sorry no command control here. To make it TMCC or DCS usable you must install that system inside it.

While most engines can be run in conventional mode, some operators want to run one system that will work with all brands.

Lee Fritz

I didn't know that MTH stuff was plug and play. I know it has more options then most other companies.

Lee Fritz

Read the post again.  I said "closest" and caveated "if DCC and Conventional".

Is anything really plug and play in the train world?  Even DCC has it's quirks.  G 

3rd Rail tried something like this and unfortunately the effort failed due to a certain individual at a reseller who became.... ****y....

I hope 3rd Rail tries again.  The trick is MTH and Lionel have all sorts of "issues" that restrict what a manufacturer can do.   It becomes a "value add" at the reseller.   So basically the resellers got to get their act together and support such an effort.  I honestly don't see that happening.

That said 3rd Rail has really done a bang up job at pushing the limits of sound/performance of TMCC.   MTH on the other hand is entirely too restrictive.   I keep hoping MTH opens up PS/2 to companies like 3rd Rail now that they have PS/3.... but that is likely too much to ask.

I've personally cornered Mr. Wolf and told him straight up that I don't buy his engines because they are NOT prototypical Santa Fe. He skimps way too much compared to Atlas and 3rd Rail.    I happily buy his PS/2 kits and upgraded older TMCC 3rd Rail engines.   However, the new 3rd Raid engines with what Scott has been doing don't warrant an upgrade.   The TMCC in them rocks.   So now MTH is a total NO SALE from me.   Sorry Mr. Wolf that your greed and intentional grid lock has landed you with a non-customer from me.   

I truly believe that ALL would benefit from an OPEN standard in O gauge.   By "ALL" I mean both the consumer and the manufacturer.   If I could buy the loco I wanted in the road name I wanted, with the scale detail I wanted with the control system I wanted then I would openly buy from Lionel, MTH, Atlas and 3rd Rail.   As it is....   Atlas and 3rd Rail get all of my business.  Lionel is so closed minded with Legacy and MTH so closed minded with PS/2-3 and neither Lionel or MTH make truly scale steam ATSF so... oh well...

Sure, I'm a minority O scaler that wants accurate scale ATSF with KD couplers etc etc.   However, the O scale market is pretty small in general and I can't help but wonder what all those losses add up to by ignoring the minority I am in.

Anyway, my GDD SuperChief sure looks grand behind Atlas F units.   Sucks to be Lionel and MTH!   That was only a few grand they lost.