Where you can and cannot photograph

As a former (and long time) newspaper photo editor, working photojournalist, and member of the National Press Photographers Association (NPPA), I found that it often depended on how big the person asking you to stop taking photos is.

My first "detainment" for taking photos was when I was a junior in college, and I had many run-ins with various types of "officials" in the years thereafter (aside from my long stint in the Army).  It all goes with the job, and all the specified freedoms in the world won't stop someone from restricting you in some way if he is really determined to do so.  And going to court to prove that you are right really is a pain in the butt.

Fortunately, I got out of the photojournalism business well before 9/11, because I imagine it's much more of a pain since then.

Too many people think things are illegal that aren't. I just saw a not on another friends FB page that had a bunch of train pictures on it that they friend took locally.

Someone "warned" him that taking these pics was illegal and he better remove him before he got in trouble. I hope the guy was just joking. But with what some people think is illegal these days is amazing.

Did you know in some states that you can take or record pictures, but not sound, unless you post a sign to that effect. I ran into that with a DVR at my business. I can record any pictures in public areas, but no sound without a warning sign.

Yes that falls under the wiretapping laws, same thing as not being able to record a phone call without letting the other party know.

There are several lawsuits going on right now about it, I hope the laws get overturned soon

I hope so, in my case I recorded 2 gangbangers vandalizing a neighbors house, asked what they were doing, had them both pull a gun on me, and of course they skated because I was recording sound. I was not trying to be a big shot just taking out the trash and walked up on it.

Then again there are those who feel the law when it truly in place doesn't apply to them.  They get asked to leave or what have you and they get all bent out of shape.

I carry a large camera lens and a tripod in the bed of the truck. They are welcome to try to interfere with me when I am parked legally.

I am well aware of the increasing hostility towards camera/camcorder shooters... my tatic is quite simple. Get your shot and go. Don't stick around.

Like Allan I have had many run ins with "Official" protectors of government and private areas. After 9/11 it got much worst. Once I was filming a short string of old WP dome cars parked on a siding in the Union Pacific yards in Oakland. I was on a public sidewalk when a electric cart pulled up with two guys in it. They told me to move on and stop filming. I showed them my press ID but it didn't help. They just stood in front of my camera. The video was just for me so I didn't press it. The next week there was a huge chain link fence next to the sidewalk. Many times it depends on your attitude. If you want to take the time and explain what your doing and are nice to them it will work out much better. I hate to say it but the private cops are by far the worst. I've had them grab the lens of my Betacam and almost pull it of shoulder more than once. I got one of these guys fired once because I was on a public sidewalk filming a oil refinery. A private cop came up to me without saying a word and grabbed the end of my lens and pushed me. He started calling me all kinds of names. When I called the PR to the refinery they came out to talk to me. The guy said he never touched me. I played the video back for them. I was rolling tape the entire time. You have to always play it by ear. Don 

God invented the Leica and the Minox to help with this problem.  It also really helps to never be confrontational.

Pete

I wonder if it's illegal to stand on the sidewalk and photograph the York halls 

Since it's private property and leased by TCA for the weekend it could be if they chose to prohibit it. The bigger question is that if you were standing by the large door when it was open and shot towards it from outside, is it a violation ?

That's the joke I was originally going to make but figured that would definitely be a violation. Although, if we really wanted to split hairs, the rule does say "No photography IN any hall" 

Nope, no violation.  Not much to see doing that, but I have photographed the opening day crowds (or lack thereof) both outside and inside the Orange Hall (in the concession area of the hall) on several occasions.  The inside of the hall is visible in the background, of course, but there's really nothing worthwhile to see.  Truth is, there's not much worth photographing inside any of the halls, aside from whatever group has a layout set up in the Black Hall.  Some people just like to make a fuss over the rule just for the sake of making a fuss...nothing better to do, I guess.

But there's no point rehashing the York rule here.  That's not the point or intention of this thread.  You can read my column about the York rule in our August issue. 

Wasn't meaning to make fuss Allan, just some light humor is all. With the title of this thread I was surprised no one had made a York joke yet, lol!

The world has changed in the last few years to free fire zone for photos and cameras.  Cameras are on most cell phones, traffic cameras, security cameras, cameras in class rooms, everywhere, all the time.  If you post pictures on the internet,  the whole world has it forever.

And you better behave yourself as photo proof of you poor behavior probably exists.

Those trying to control things being photographed are losing and better adjust access or hid from view of the public as we are in a new world.

Charlie

I understand, Nick.  No problem.  I do write about the York "no photos" rule in my next column, and I think most here will agree with what I have to say (aside from some York and/or TCA officials, I imagine).

There's actually some bigger industry-related news going on at the moment that I'm trying to get a handle on.  Been working on that this very evening as a matter of fact.

Gee nice teaser Allan

Really!!

I've gotten hassled but never by RR folks. I signed up for the Amtrak ID card and yet to use it....but most of my pictures are from public property so I have not tested it much.

Nothing to get terribly excited about yet...it's just the former newspaperman in me that has had his ears perked up a bit.  Could be something, or could be nothing significant at all. 

This is one of the nice things about photographing trains out in the middle of no-where, or in smaller towns.  Very seldom will you get hassled.   Mostly locals just curious if an "old time (or tyme) train' is coming through!   When I tell them no, their interest is lost and they leave....   Even the local police seldom give me a second look.  Only once did the local "Barney" stop to see what I was doing.  When I told him I was a railfan, and photographing trains, he bid me a safe day and vanished.   I do however still chuckle when a local comes up to me after seeing me with my camera around my neck, and ask me what am I doing?   I usually point to my camera and in a light hearted tone say, " isn't my camera a dead give away?"   I will then explain my hobby to them which usually does the job of satisfying their curiosity.

I used to work at the Marathon refinery in Detroit.  Saying that it is not in a nice neighborhood is a gross understatement.  As I pulled in the lot one morning, I noticed someone across the street taking pictures from a public sidewalk.  The Detroit police were on him by the time I got out of my car and halfway up the stairs.  I asked the security guy at the desk what was going on and he said (laughing) that it was illegal to take pictures of an oil refinery.  I said "thanks" and moved along.  The "official" word came down later that day about how to report this sort of thing in the future and why it was so "dangerous" to have people taking pictures.  Of course, nothing was said about the excellent overheads (and coordinates) provided by Google Maps.

While arguing with an officer about what is legal and what isn't is not a great idea, sometimes quoting the law to a judge is equally pointless.  They can and do bend it until it breaks.

They may just be poking at you to see how you react.  Remember that in most jurisdictions making any sort of false statement to a police officer is a crime.  You may have been perfectly within your rights and not broken any laws but a false statement is a mistake you don't want to make.  A smart mouth will get you in all sorts of trouble and you never know whether the officer is in a joking mood or not.

Careful guy's, This is the wrong place and time to post a thread about over zealous cops. Any other place and I'd really unload. Bad experience with a female county officer last Fall photographing a CSX wreck......FROM PUBLIC PROPERTY! As we say around here, "ya' all have a nice day." 

Allan, relax a little. Your working toooooooo hard. We had lunch at Momma's fish house today. Your taking us there when you visit. No one will stop you from taking pictures. Don

Sounds like a good plan to me, Don!  I don't recall having ever been to Momma's, but from the looks of it I sure could enjoy dinner and a couple of vodka martinis there.

Only on private property, theres no expectation of privacy in a public place and the wiretapping law is void.

As a photographer I can tell you that there are quite a few places where, though it is quite legal to take photos, "someone" calls some sort of authority and there is a hassle.

More than ever I find myself "herded" away from locations where I am taking photos from the street and I am well within my right to do so.

Avoiding confrontation when I can get the photo some other way is what I try to do.

A polite "I believe I have the legal right to take this photo" sometimes become, "OK, I'll move on."

Before 9/11, obviously, we lived in a very different world. 

At least, we felt it was different.

I feel some have gone way overboard and often overreact when it is unnecessary. 

We may have lost our perspective.

Some of my train photos were taken on railroad property in the "old" days with "permission" from train personnel who looked the other way. 

Now? . . . . . Whoo Boy !

Eliot

When I take photo's locally at the rail yards, stations or sidings, I usually take a Lionel engine with me and when confronted, take it out of my pack pack and the RR people melt like butter.  Got many RR people into O gauge trains that way. 

Got a free ride on a UP gp38 working a siding when I just held my Lionel one out for the engineer to see and he stopped the locomotive, we chatted for awhile and I got to ride during the switching ops.

TEX

Steve

Allan, then we can watch all the "Thin Man" movies. We have the whole set. Don

You can't take pictures in Brittney Spears' back yard.  Don't ask me how I know.

I have the whole set. FB. Don

A bit off subject, but I've noticed a lot of indoor venues, like my Grandkids plays, dance recitals, etc. are now off-limits thanks to digital cameras. No longer needing eye contact with the camera, people now hold them up in the air to shoot...blocking the view of others. Also, the bright screens of many cameras in a dark room is distracting.

Only two I know of are in the Archives. No one is going to be seeing those any time soon.

As far as the Photo Police... Living in a rural area makes for much easier shooting.

There is also a secondary inroads being made by having data stamp on the video, picture frames including GPS data.

Before 9-11 I have had engineers out west pause an extra moment or two while I took my shot from the shoulder of my rig with a tiny camera (Shows my lack of understanding of lens at the time.) and then give two toots when I got it.

The only time I take shots openly for any time period is when I expect a event such as the UP Challenger or the 844 etc to come through.

Now excuse me while I try to capture the new Ethanol train that has begin daily runs in the morning.

Avoiding confrontation:

To a point, this makes sense.  Where do we draw the line though on our rights and freedoms?  Being polite does not mean that you need to let people walk all over you.  We also shouldn't have to risk becoming criminalized just because we appropriately assert these rights.

Pre/Post 9/11:

Yes, it was different.  Major events like that become defining moments and turning points.  11/22/63 was another.  But the acts of a single person or group should not mean that we need to give up rights and freedoms for the illusion of security.

Great pictures, Eliot! 

Well short of card destruction there is really nothing more permanent available in the field. I went through something similar when I was photographing an old building here in town that happened to house an IRS office. The Rent a Cop insisted that I couldn't photograph the building. After a newspaper article and an few calls to GSA it was proved that I could. I need to go back and reshoot again and see if they got the word.

If they do try to stop me I am more than willing to get cuffed and meet them in court, because that is far less than others have given up to give me the right to shoot the building

I find it pretty hilarious that, in an age where the spy satellites of our enemies can pretty much read a car's license plate in real time, the authorities are concerned with average people photographing military equipment on trains.  That is WWII-era mentality (and was entirely appropriate in that era).  People that are up to no good generally do not stand out in the open with cameras, unless they are of the extremely stupid variety.

Andy

Hear, Hear!

In the news yesterday...The A.C.L.U. has developed a free iPhone app, available to anyone so they can photograph and document N.Y.C. Police Officers, stopping suspected perps on the streets of the city. The Cops can not do anything about this.

So if anyone can be in the way of a Police Officer doing his/her job with a camera or cell phone, I can not see why anyone can hassle people who photograph trains from public property.

Even the ACLU says you cannot interfere with the arrest, only observe, you get in the way  you can be arrested.

Sounds like a handy app