Who makes the Best "mass produced" 3R Scale EMD F units?

If you want the best, take a look at 3rd Rail’s offerings (okay, maybe not massed produced).  They have done most F versions.  And if you are looking for PRR F3s, 3rd Rail has been the only one to do an accurate version (not counting high end brass).

3rd Rail makes the best "mass produced" F units in 3R and 2R.  Atlas is a close second.  MTH is getting close, but still not quite there.  I would consider K-Line to be inferior to all the others.  Lionel is a little inconsistent in my opinion based on the recent questions related to colors.  Just my opinion of course.

My other argument for 3rd Rail is the variety of F units produced.  They have done the FT, F3, F7, FP7, and the FL9.

While 2 rail, these are my 3rd Rail F3s.

3rd Rail FP7

3rd Rail FT

3rd Rail F7

3rd Rail FL9

As with everything, it depends on how you measure.  When I was a kid all I wanted was the 2343 Santa Fe ABA and the aluminum cars.  The other choice of course was the NYC but who had ever heard of the NYC.  The Texas Special was a great addition but it would not pull anything with just one motor.

My choice goes to MTH.  I fully admit that I do not run them but beginning in 1994 through 2000 they out did themselves in production of road names.

So, "the best 'mass produced' 3R Scale EMD F units?" Simple: Lionel. I've had 5 ABA F3 sets and 1 ABA F7 set over the years. All have worked very well, with fine graphics and detailing. My favorite is the Santa Fe TMCC F7 set from 2007.  Hard to beat.

My vote would go to Sunset/3rd Rail. The photo shows my Boston & Maine F-3 model locomotive released during 2021. Note the fixed pilot. Another outstanding Sunset/3rd Rail model is their New Haven FL-9, released around ten years ago. After Sunset/3rd Rail, my preferences are MTH, Atlas O, and Lionel - in that order.

MELGAR

Definitely 3rd rail. I added lift lugs to my A unit. The B unit is also powered. I love em !

+1 for 3rd Rail, with fixed pilots and road-specific details like no other.  Here's the lead unit from my B & O A-B-A (all units powered) F3 set:

My vote for “best value” which is what Mainline said he was looking for is late K-Line. You can get two ABA sets, six engines with 8-12 motors for the price of one 3rd Rail engine. Further many came with both scale fixed pilots as well as movable pilots for smaller layouts.

You were on the right track Mainline, you just need the other two engines that went with your trailing A.

Pete

This topic was moved from the 3-rail traditional forum to the 3R Scale forum.  Can't figure out why the topic which is obviously about 3R Scale in the title would not have been posted here in the first place.

@Yellowstone Special posted:

So, "the best 'mass produced' 3R Scale EMD F units?" Simple: Lionel. I've had 5 ABA F3 sets and 1 ABA F7 set over the years. All have worked very well, with fine graphics and detailing. My favorite is the Santa Fe TMCC F7 set from 2007.  Hard to beat.

Sorry but, I must totally disagree. Even if Lionel gets the colors correct, which has been rarely, their "China Drive" system with the vertical motors generally does NOT care to pull long passenger train consists.

@OGR posted:

This topic was moved from the 3-rail traditional forum to the 3R Scale forum.  Can't figure out why the topic which is obviously about 3R Scale in the title would not have been posted here in the first place.

Because the question was not about the best scale F3 but rather the best value. Just because the 3rd Rail fans chimed in doesn’t imply its a 3RS question. Some of us don’t agree that a $2100 ABA setup is a better value than a $400 ABA. Obviously others have a different opinion, now waiting for Elon, Bill, Warren, and Jeff to chime in.

Pete

LIONEL, Legacy.

@Norton posted:

Because the question was not about the best scale F3 but rather the best value. Just because the 3rd Rail fans chimed in doesn’t imply its a 3RS question. Some of us don’t agree that a $2100 ABA setup is a better value than a $400 ABA. Obviously others have a different opinion, now waiting for Elon, Bill, Warren, and Jeff to chime in.

Pete

Wait,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,doesn't the subject title state ......."3R Scale EMD F units?" ?????? Absolutely no mention of "the best value".

@Hot Water posted:

Sorry but, I must totally disagree. Even if Lionel gets the colors correct, which has been rarely, their "China Drive" system with the vertical motors generally does NOT care to pull long passenger train consists.

Of course with a question like this one, there’s going to be various opinions. It’s just that for the money, Lionel’s 2007 Santa Fe TMCC F7 ABA set is the best locomotive I’ve had. With this one, Lionel DID get the colors right, and the powered A unit with two vertical “China Drive” motors, pulls its two dummies and seven aluminum passenger cars around my layout effortlessly.

And yes, mine is a smaller layout with no grades. But if I opened up the throttle more than I do, the F7 would leave the track. I suppose that if you’re a rivet counter and don’t mind spending huge sums on toy trains and want to pull 18 dozen cars at the club, then yes, brands like 3rd Rail will shine.

But for my money and layout, I’ve been happy with Lionel’s scale ABA Fs.

@Hot Water posted:

Wait,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,doesn't the subject title state ......."3R Scale EMD F units?" ?????? Absolutely no mention of "the best value".

You didn’t read the body of the post which apparently neither did most here. Mainline clearly stated he wants opinion on best value. All the engines listed are scale models that run on 3 rail track. 3rd Rail wasn’t even mentioned.

“I am looking for the best Value.  Now some questions.

The K-Line 3rd generation seems like a good choice, is it?  (if I get the full-set)

Are the Lionel the same as the 3rd generation K-Line?

Atlas seem to sell for the most, are they really that much better?

How do the MTH Premiers stack-up?”

Pete

I have to agree with Norton. While “ best value” doesn’t appear in the OP’s title, it does appear in his introductory paragraph. 😉

@Norton posted:

Because the question was not about the best scale F3 but rather the best value. Just because the 3rd Rail fans chimed in doesn’t imply its a 3RS question. Some of us don’t agree that a $2100 ABA setup is a better value than a $400 ABA. Obviously others have a different opinion, now waiting for Elon, Bill, Warren, and Jeff to chime in.

Pete

Perhaps you didn't understand my post.  The subject title specifically asks about a 3R Scale product.  Secondary to that is his statement that he is looking for the best value.  So....it was taken that he was looking for the best 3R scale F unit that is also the best value.

Value is more than just numbers. 

@MainLine Steam posted:

I am looking for opinions on who made/makes the best mass produced (plastic) 3R Scale EMD F units.  I buy used (NIB if I can find them).  The only one I purchased so far was an "error" on my part.  It was the 3rd Generation K-Line, unfortunately it was the trailing unit A unit, so powered, but no control board.  I am looking for the best Value.  Now some questions.

The K-Line 3rd generation seems like a good choice, is it?  (if I get the full-set)

Are the Lionel the same as the 3rd generation K-Line?

Atlas seem to sell for the most, are they really that much better?

How do the MTH Premiers stack-up?

Do all brands require "sets", or other than K-Line, will all the powered units operate independently?

Am I missing any, or are those the 4 brands I should be considering?

Thank you - Jim

It would be helpful to quote the entire post and not leave out the last line stating "Am I missing any, or are those the 4 brands I should be considering?"

Clearly 3rd Rail is a brand to consider.

Value is not always about cost.  While the K-Line version will often be the best price, it is a poor representation of a scale F7 compared to the others on this list.  Beyond riding high, the locomotive is a Phase IV F3 and is labeled as either an F3 or an F7 on the box in name only. 

Good grief.

A question like this is about as useful as asking "what's the best steam engine". You're going to get a million opinions (all valid in their own way), but it's gonna be up to you to make the final decision.

Mark in Oregon

@OGR posted:

Perhaps you didn't understand my post.  The subject title specifically asks about a 3R Scale product.  Secondary to that is his statement that he is looking for the best value.  So....it was taken that he was looking for the best 3R scale F unit that is also the best value.

Semantics.

If the title was best Scale 3R F3 would you have understood the question better?

Pete

Pete...this was referred to me since you obviously want to debate the issue here.  This has NOTHING to do with "semantics" rather it has more to do with the title.  Our software as well as about a half dozen alerts we got from other members focused on the title as being the most important part of the post since it specifically mentions 3R Scale.  The body of the post then goes on to mention value.  Regardless, this was originally put in the traditionally sized 3-rail, 027 forum which it did not belong.  Lets get back to trying to help the OP.

If we're talking about "best value" F units, I must observe that for better or worse no one has mentioned the Menards F3 (FP7).

Lionel Legacy would be on my list because of their Legacy operating features but as others have opined, their color is a bit inconsistent and interpretative these days for my tastes.  E.g. I'd consider their new Legacy UP WP Heritage SD70ACE but in the catalog mock-up the green looks like it's been adjusted to some crazy over-saturated version of the original instead of being the prototype's decidedly dull green (as correctly done in the previous Legacy version 10 years ago).  Who knows what would show up?  So for new Lionel stuff, I really prefer to see a picture of the as-produced item first -- something not usually possible with BTO.

3rd Rail occasionally has customers that don't like the production colors for various reasons too, but Scott offers a generous return policy -- so if in someone's opinion "the color's not right," the engine can go back for a refund.  Not a lot of risk there.

I think the reason it was probably put in the traditional 3-rail forum is because unless the post talks about extremely detailed, fixed pilot, scale coupler'ed, and often scale wheeled models, something three of the brands mentioned do not make F units with. Any post there that doesn't discuss models framed this way is typically deleted or moved with a stern warning.

I'm missing how detached pilots and gigantic couplers are scale?

- Crank

We choose Third Rail.

BUT beauty is in the eye of the beholder (and he who pays the bill). Everyone has great suggestions and reasons which is why five manufacturers exist(ed).

The Menards F3/whatever is cheap, but it does not meet my primary best value criteria of accuracy.  It also doesn’t meet my operational best value criteria.  I just want to OP to know when I apply all my best value criteria to the Menards engine, it is at the bottom of the list.

OH BOY - SORRY ABOUT THE MIS-UNDERSTANDING!!!!  Not what I was hoping to achieve.

I want to Thank everyone for their posts!  I probably should have been clearer in what I was asking.

With my original post I was trying to achieve 3 main objectives.

1) Determine who makes the best Representation / Operating Model.

2) I get some idea of the "hierarchy" of the Manufactures.

3) Get answers to the specific questions I asked.

Once I got this information, I was going to use it to determine the best value to Me.

The problem with best value is it is a personal thing to some degree, I understand that, so only I ultimately can make the decision for Me.  I tend to be the 80/20 guy.  If you can get 80% accuracy at 20% the price it is the best value.  I this case probably more like 95% for 30%.

From what I have seen prior to this post:

K-Line are the least expensive with Lionel and MTH slightly more expensive if you are "patient" when buying.

Atlas are definitely more expensive.

The reason I didn't mention 3rd Rail is to my way of thinking they are not Mass Produced.  Yes, they have injection molded shells, but with all the specific tweaks to make them correct for each RR and EMD model and phase they aren't just banged out the door.  Funny though at this point, maybe no models are mass produced in the classic sense, in that everyone has gone to pre-orders for this higher end stuff.

I do appreciate all the pictures, and yes the 3rd rail are "to die for".  In my case that might be too true, if I bought them, wouldn't have money left for groceries.  LOL

Seriously I am really struggling with the right choice for me.  I wish I would been aware and had used this forum BEFORE I started buying!

I may have been better off buying a few High end 3rd Rail, rather than masses of what I have been buying.

The reason I posted in 3R Traditional as I have experienced Deleted Posts in 3R Scale and was advised if not sure, to post in Traditional.  I was lead to believe that 3R Scale, as cited by some above, is only for super detailing, not out of the box items.  I would like to mention I started a topic about Weaver W-3 wheelsets shortly before posting this, and I believe those in particular that are buying 3rd rail items could really help me answer.  I have had little response, so if you get a chance please take a look.

Lastly, if some one can answer the questions I originally asked that would be most appreciated. - Jim

An answer to your question might also depend on what railroad you are interested in.  There are many different prototypical differences among models based on the railroad being modeled.

I like the New York Central.  I have customers that swear the Lionel abbreviated stripe F3 is the most prototypical and best value when considering the original MSRP of them.  Some modifications to affix the pilots and adding Kadee-style couplers really brings out the best in the Lionel model.  If a scale New York Central F3 you are looking for, I highly recommend the Lionel abbreviated stripe.

I also highly vouch for the 3rd Rail by Sunset Models.  I have a set of New York Central A-B in my store showcase now.

https://jrjunction.com/product...ork-central-f3-ab-2/

I have a set of E7's from 3rd Rail and I like them a lot.  The detail and overall smooth operation are by-far the best diesels I own.  They easily pull a 14-car 21" scale aluminum K-Line Empire State Express passenger train without sweat.  3rd Rail locomotives when properly cared for operates like a Swiss watch.  While they may not have every exact detail perfect, they do come very close.

I am a very big supporter of MTH Electric Trains.  I like the technology, quality and overall attention to detail.  I happen to have a set of Santa Fe 2-Rail Scale F3 A-B-A in stock now.  The metallic plating on these are (in my humble opinion) beautiful.  These also sport a fixed pilot and ready for Kadee-style couplers.  Sorry, I don't have an actual photograph handy and this stock image of a 3-Rail model doesn't do the locomotives justice.  The Santa Fe warbonnet scheme is beautiful....I like to call them the '57 Chevy of trains!  I am only selling these MTH 2-Rail Scale Santa Fe A-B-A as a set.
https://jrjunction.com/product...7-2-santa-fe-f3-35l/
https://jrjunction.com/product...8-2-santa-fe-f3-35c/
https://jrjunction.com/product/22-21498-3-santa-fe-f3b-35b/

Speaking of MTH Electric Trains, their new Premier Scale F3 A and B units are about to ship to authorized retailers now.  We have two custom-run sets shipping soon for the New York Ontario & Western Railroad.  We have chosen to have these produced because there has been much demand for a re-release of NYO&W F3's that are as prototypical accurate as possible, including the colors they are painted.

https://jrjunction.com/product...-nyow-821-f3a-b-set/

https://jrjunction.com/product...-nyow-822-f3a-b-set/

When a set of locomotives operate as they are designed and intended, sound great and painted a prototypical color, no mater which manufacturers model you choose, you will find value in them.  I hope this perspective from a dealer's side of the sales counter helps.

I think "best" is the wrong word to use in a question like this.   There will be no agreement.    Best it different for everyone and I think changes as modelers mature.

I think the more a person becomes a modeler vs a collector, the more they are interested in more accurate details.  

I think the more a person "operates" somewhat prototypically, the more they are interested in how well the unit runs, especially at low speeds.

For me the best has to have fixed pilots to even be considered - my opinion in seeking better scale models.   It also has to be accurate in major dimensions - height, width, length etc.    And it absolutely has to run well.   Then I look at the details.    Are the details correct for the F3 or the F7 or whatever the model represents based on the roadname and number.     Something with an F7 number and F3 dynamic brake slots instead of a fan is not good.     And then I consider the paint.   Is it done well and are the lettering and numbers clear and crisp.    Are they basically in the right place and are they the right size again for the specific model.    And the color is important.    For example a Pennsy F3 or F7 in tuscan is not acceptable to me.

Finally I consider price.    Price is important, but only after I decide if the unit in question is a good model (in my opinion) of the prototype. 

So what is best for me may not be best for someone else.

Jim,

I don't have all the answers to all your questions and some of the answers really bring up additional questions, but I can offer a little more detailed help.

• I still feel the K-Line models are the least desirable for many reasons.  In addition to my previous posts, the master / slave relationship of the units does rely on the lead A unit to run the set and the tether is not very pretty.  If the lead unit fails your set is dead in the water.  Again, there are prototypical issues I have with it as well.  Having said that, I do own a gutted ATSF B unit I picked up for about $20 that I sometimes run in the consist of my EL Capitan set.  Using the 5 foot rule it is fine.
• Lionel does not use the K-Line tooling.  If you like the Legacy system, these could be a good choice.  Buying second hand you can judge color accuracy for yourself.  I can't speak to how they are set up in terms of sets as I don't own any modern Lionel diesels.
• Atlas makes excellent models and prior to my ability to obtain 3rd Rail locomotives, they were always my first choice for scale fidelity.  Their F units are generally accurate and are good runners.  The quality is clear in the slightly higher resale values.  These were not required run as sets and you could choose powered or unpowered units as needed.  TMCC may or may not be a drawback for you.
• MTH Premier models have come a long way.  If you like DCS the recent production models are a solid choice.  Up until around 2012 (going from memory here), MTH used a shortened wheelbase on their Blomberg truck which is visually less appealing to my eye.  It may not make a difference to you.  In short, know what you are buying with used MTH as they are not all equal.

The questions to ask yourself might include:

• What command system am I interested in investing in, if any?  Conversely, you may opt to run Legacy and DCS so as to not limit yourself.
• How important is multiple powered units for the layout(s) I plan on operating on?  I own with only a few exceptions all powered units as I like to pull long trains.  However I have a club that affords that opportunity.
• As already asked, do you have a favorite road?  This may lead you in a direction not only for F units, but for future locomotives.

As to the discussion of 3rd Rail product, you can see that there are supporters and detractors.  I am personally biased in my support.  I consider the product to be mass produced as all the F unit production runs have been in excess of 500 units on the first run.

If I were more objective about it I would say that if you are looking at just  F3 or F7 models, then you really can't go wrong between Lionel, Atlas, or MTH.  The market has lots options.

Of course with this being the 3RS forum, eliminating the floating pilot and putting a scale coupler on the nose goes a long way towards improving the look of any locomotive.

Hope that truly helps.

I think we should take the comparisons a step further. While its true that K-Line has used the lead A unit to control the trailing units, this is not necessary a bad thing. One control unit to change or upgraded if needed.

I am powering three powered K-Line E8s with a single ERR Cruise M board. This allows running a single A, AB, AA, or ABA. Since the tether exits through the diaphrams its appearance is a non issue.

MTH has been using a similar system up until the past few years when they started putting a control unit in each powered engine. Prior to that the trailing unit relied on the lead unit for motion.

Lionel avoided the problem by only having one powered unit with trailing dummies until recently when they too added a second powered unit with its own control.

If I am not mistaken even 3rd Rail engines offered non powered units??

Pete

Several years ago, I bought a set of MTH CNW F7's with scale wheels and fixed pilots. As Jonathan (GG1 4877) said above, MTH was getting close, but the Atlas and 3rd Rail units I've seen seem to have a better implementation. The feature I like about the MTH units, which I hope carries on in the Atlas offerings of former MTH locomotives, is that you can operate in both 2-rail and 3-rail, and DCC, DCS, or conventional mode. I've run some of my locomotives in multiple environments.

It would seem many agree 3rd rail is the best looking/most accurate to the prototype in the way of F Units. I would say this is true with atlas in a moderate second place.

An additional perspective...
Another way to consider “best value” is which will retain the best price on the secondary market. It has been my experience in selling many 3rd rail/GGD products on the secondary market that they often resell (even in used condition) at, near, or even above the original MSRP (depending on the model). The rarity associated with the limited production of 3rd rail/GGD products combined with the excellent engineering, top notch operating characteristics, and accuracy to the prototype make them the very best in 3 Rail Scale! You will never get this same resale value from any other manufacturer/importer in 3 rail. 3rd rail/GGD are the Ferrari’s of O scale!

Thanks to all that have replied since my second post on this subject.  A special thanks for answering my questions about independent operation after getting "burned" on my K-Line purchase (out of my ignorance).  As I learned in feedback at that time, there is a lot more complexity in the 3R world, than I was use to in HO.

With HO the NMRA developed a standard in the 1990's as digital control came to the market.  This should apply to 2R Scale, although not sure it does, since the manufactures are the same guys that make 3R.  With the NMRA there is one DCC standard for all.  If you chose, you can run old school with transformer regulated DC.  With the standard there was real competition for DCC Decoder Chip sales, so they are relatively inexpensive.

One "Crazy Idea", I have considered, is making my Layout DC and just get rid of all the reversing units and other proprietary high cost electronics.  I am not buying pre-war stuff, so every Loco I have purchased so far has DC Can motors and I don't see that changing.  On the other hand I temper that with Big Johns comment.  When I drop dead, good luck with my daughter trying to unload DC 3R equipment.

One thing I could guarantee with this approach, is good low speed operation.  This is actually VERY important to me.  It literally makes me nauseous, when I try to watch traditional 3R at a train show.  I don't understand it, as I don't suffer from traditional motion sickness. Oh Well?  But back to my point, scale to me is about proportion, but also scale speed operation.  This is better with O.  For the short time I was in N, people would ask me what was wrong with my trains, why did they run so slow?  Well 30 mph = 44 fps / 160x12 = 3.3 inches per second, not what most people expect to see a mixed local freight train running at on a layout.  Oh and to get a steam engine up to that speed takes time ( a couple of minutes).

So all of this helps me.  Thanks again to ALL for the different perspectives.

Johnathan - Thank you for the time you spent preparing the detailed point by point reply.

Pete - As always thanks for your "support".

- Jim

@Norton posted:

Lionel avoided the problem by only having one powered unit with trailing dummies until recently when they too added a second powered unit with its own control.

Lionel's offering of fully powered AA pairs has been spotty. The most recent Baldwin sharks and the recent F7s were both powered and the Alco FAs in the '22v2 catalog list that as a feature as well. However, the last time F3s were offered only one unit was powered.

Buy what you can comfortably afford. That's the best advice I can offer. They are all good choices.

Ron H

Here are some images of 3-rail F-series diesel locomotive models for comparison in order of my preference.

• Sunset/3^rd Rail Boston & Maine F-3 #4227A
• Sunset/3^rd Rail New Haven FL-9 #2043
• MTH Maine Central F-3 #686
• Atlas O Boston & Maine F-2 #4257
• Lionel (I don’t have any)
• K-Line Metro-North F-7 #412

MELGAR

Sorry but in my book 3rd Rail despite its clear merits does not qualify as "massed produced". 

@MELGAR Very nice stuff! Right now I have Postwar and MPC F-3's, and I hope to get more detailed F-units at some point. Looking at your pictures, the Atlas, 3rd Rail and MTH versions all look very nice, and personally I'd think I'd be happy with any of them, including Lionel.