Who Runs Conventional with DCS?

Are most of your locos MTH with proto-sound???  if not you can run all your engines conventional with Lionel cab-1 with powermaster unit to control track power.

On our modular layout, we have two DCS tracks and one conventional track.  The conventional track is run from the TIU so all three tracks are controlled by the handheld.

 

It works great!

 

The conventional locos are in a world of their own running at whatever voltage the TIU provides (controlled by the remote) and the DCS locos do what DCS does well with all the bells an whistles, uncoupling, multiple trains on one track, etc.

 

I would suggest you get a DCS setup (remote and TIU) and use it for both.  Even with conventioal trains it controls two separate tracks.... and it will let you do DCS when you want to.... win/win!

 

IMHO,

Ed

Only 1 protosounds and 1 proto 3. The only reason to go DCS, at least at the moment would be to access the features of proto 3, and to be able to do the same with future purchases although may be few, and to be able to reset them. Where if I get another one like this one, the basic Remote Commander won't function. But if conventional operation is not good, or a pain, or problematic, and I have to switch back and forth, I'm not sure I can see a good reason to try it. So I was trying to find out how conventional operation worked for others. In many cases, Posts, I see were the conventional locos get shelved, but it seam more for the lack of the new features, but I don't know that for sure.

First off, IMO, buying a CAB1 and a PowerMaster is a rapid advance backwards.  With the DCS system, you can have two channels of remote controlled conventional operation and full DCS command capability as well.

I don't have any conventional, and am by no means an expert on this, but I can think of 2 ways to do this.

 

1. You can use a conventional transformer with a fixed DCS channel. Turn voltage all the way up for DCS. Control the voltage with the transformer handle for conventional. 

 

2. For conventional, use a variable channel. Full transformer voltage to DCS TIU and regulate the voltage with the thumbwheel on the remote. Use fixed channel for DCS engines for another loop of track and you could run both at the same time.

 

Pretty sure there are more ways to do this, I believe I have seen Barry and others describe them, but don't remember where or how. Maybe they will be along shortly, to add more info. I think Barry's book has more about this as well.

 

 

Dlo,

 

What John said.

 

And to reassure you, using DCS to control track voltage for conventional locos works as well as if you had your hand on a throttle control on a regular transformer.  It does take a bit longer to scroll from fast to slow using the thumbwheel, but it works well.

 

Ed

With your dcs remote  and a tiu you can run anything you want. Just wire the tracks up as indicted in manual.

I run conventional through full DCS on my O-gauge layout and it works well. On my Standard Gauge layout I have full DCS and run conventional engines also. The Z-4000 transformers are fully accessible so I just use the transformer throttles.

 

With only 1 command engine i would not buy a full DCS system. 

Thanks this is what I was looking for. I'd rather use one system for both. And if it's just for DCS locos, I'm not really sure I want to go that route, but if it works good to control conventional as well, then win win. I have two separate track, with crossover track, and might want a conv. on one and a dcs on the other, and one unit to control them. This is sounding like the way to go.

I have both conventional and DCS locos.  DCS operation is so far superior to conventional that I rarely run conventional, and have convetred most of my conventionals to DCS.

 

That said, the beauty of running conventional through the DCS system is that you have walk around control--not tied to staying at the control panel.

 

Forget all the nonsense about special wiring.  If I want to tun conventional, I use the track (TRK) control on the remote.  If I want to run DCS, I use the ENGine button.  No switches to throw.  Any loco can go anywhere on the layout.  I have also run both conventional and DCS at the same time on the same TIU circuit--just make sure the conventional train is heavier (= slower) than the DCS train, since you can slow down the latter without affecting the former.

It's not really a question of 1 engine. It's how do conventional locomotives work under that system. I need to do something, and maybe for once I shouldn't cheap out and end up spending more in the long run. I do like the sound and the idea of the proto couplers. But don't want to give up some of the conventional engines I have. I've added sound to a couple, just not command control.

Conventional locomotives run fine with the DCS remote.  You can run conventional and DCS on different tracks at the same time, all from the DCS remote.  Best of both worlds.

 

Dlo, the beauty of DCS is more than just the sound.  The ability to run locos, even close to and on the same track as others, with full control over each, is great.

That's one of the things I like. I have a walk around system now. But a couple of my Lionel with sound sometimes do strange things, and the new Proto 3 does not like it at all. I could keep this engine and downgrade it. But I'll probably end up in the future with another one that won't like the system I have. I am also a little paranoid that I might damage the electronics since sometimes they act a little goofy. Sound Only.

I did know that. I've read quite a bit on this forum. I know if you have the command engines you can do all kinds of cool stuff. I was concerned that conventional operation would not be satisfactory. I'm also still a little concerned that it might be too complicated, (the remote), for me to remember how to use it, short of looking up stuff constantly.

I think my fears of conventional operation with this system have been put to rest. Now I know you can get real complicated with this system, can it still be as simple or complicated as you want? I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer anymore. I have trouble remembering some things. And am not able to think through those complicated problems like I used to. Do you think I'll be in over my head? Right now I only have two loops, basically, 2 sidings, and plans for a small yard and engine facility. The present is a 4x8 with drop down sides making it 6x10. I'm going to do another 4x8 to connect to it. So it's pretty basic. I don't see any control of switches, possibly a couple of accessories for now. But I don't want to paint myself into a corner for the future either. I just don't want complicated until I'm up to complicated. Does that make sense?

Dlo,

 

Simplest way to go:

 

Wire all blacks together and to black on TIU.

 

Connect a red wire from each track (loop) to a banana plug.

 

If you want conventional on Track 1, plug banana 1 into Variable 1 red.  If you want DCS on track 1, plug banana 1 into Fixed 1 red.

If you want conventional on Track 2, plug banana 2 into Variable 2 red.  If you want DCS on track 2, plug banana 2 into Fixed 2 red.

 

Pretty easy to do and to understand.

 

Of course, right now, it seems like DCS sets (remote + TIU) are "on the water" so the usual discounted places are out of stock and prices are high.

 

Ed

 

 

If the OP had a loop with 3 blocks and they were connected to outputs 1,2 and 3 on the TIU, could he run conventional on the entire loop? 

With full DCS and a Z-4000 and 1 more part all 4 channels can be run conventional independently. 

Do NOT buy the DCS......unless you want to be forced into buying more PS2 and 3 engines! Which you will want to do...no, have to do after the first test run.

 

Running via DCS seems to be about as close to running real trains as you can get on a board! Yes, you can run and control your conventional and will do so, but running those command control engines is something else.

 

I think from listening to the above and the more to follow, you will know which way to go. As some others say, "Come on over to the dark side!"   You will have so much fun.

 

Greg ( Write back to us a month or so after you get it and tell us how much fun you are having....and how many new toys you are running on it.)

 

 

 

I just watched 3 video's on YouTube and after the second one I decided I will NOT BUY a full DCS system. All those hours wasted pushing buttons, making noises unheard before, even train wreck noise, who needs to waste all that time.... I'd rather go mow the grass. Psssst you wouldn't know where to pick up a dozen PS2 boards cheap...............................

 

I just hope it doesn't get too complicated. And I diddled around just long enough to miss my best deal on a system while I watched that third video.

"The Force is Strong in this One"

Jeff,

 

If you connect all 3 blocks to Variable 1, you could control 1 conventional train on the whole layout (with the ability to control another on a different track).

 

Not sure what cngw and dlo are talking about.  Dlo originally asked if he could run a couple of conventional trains.  He can with DCS.  Even the DCS loco could be run as a conventional loco via Variable 1 or 2.

 

None of the features that Dlo cited are "required", but some of them might be fun (under DCS)!  You have a PS3 loco already - use it via DCS or conventional - what's the big deal?

 

Ed

 

ps.  I have a cell phone with email, so I don't use text messaging.  Does that make it a bad phone because it has features I don't use?

If you want conventional on Track 1, plug banana 1 into Variable 1 red.  If you want DCS on track 1, plug banana 1 into Fixed 1 red.

If you want conventional on Track 2, plug banana 2 into Variable 2 red.  If you want DCS on track 2, plug banana 2 into Fixed 2 red.

 

 

 

Not necessary.

I agree, not necessary, but as I said in the next sentence:

 

Pretty easy to do and to understand.

 

What would you suggest instead?

How could anything be easier that what I do, as noted above?

What you said above does not explain what wires go where on the OP's layout as he described it.

 

Where do your wires go?  How many TIU channels are used?  Which loop connects where? etc.

 

I think that physically moving a banana plug makes more sense to someone new to DCS and the wiring couldn't be simpler.

 

IMHO

 

Ed

On my layout, I have 6 "loops"/power districts/circuits--6 TIU channels--because when the layout was built in the early 90's, that was the best way for conventional operation of many trains.  Any loco, conventional or DCS, can go anywhere on the layout at any time under its own power, and be controlled solely by the remote.

 

I use 2 TIUs, 2 VARIABLE circuits and 2 FIXED that are connected to outputs from a Z4000 with Z4k control box, which essentially means they are VARIABLE also.  If I didn't have the Z4k control box, I could run everything from the 4 VARIABLE circuits, or move an old TIU from my workbench to my layout and use its VARIABLES.

 

On any layout, if a "loop" is fed by a VARIABLE circuit, both DCS and conventional locos can be run on it and controlled by the remote, using TRK for conventionals and ENG for DCS locos.  If a "loop" is fed by a FIXED, you can set the voltage and the conventional speed by using the transformer handle or with the remote if you convert the fixed to variable by using a Z4000 transformer with the Z4k control box plugged into the back.

 

For a simple layout using both conventional and DCS and not needing more than 2 circuits, simply use the VARIABLE outputs for both and either.  Why limit yourself by requiring that you move wires depending on what loco is in what area?  If you need more circuits, use a second TIU, a Z4000/Z4k, or use the transformer handles.  "Oh, conventional loco #736 is about to go to another loop.  I have to shut down and move wires."  Or, "I want to stop running the old Lionel and run my new PS2.  I have to move wires around."  That is not simple.

 

 

To keep it simple learn to use 10 seconds of soft keys to change variable channels to fixed channels for command running. Following simple instructions is far easier than using some Rube Goldberg setup.

"Any loco, conventional or DCS, can go anywhere on the layout at any time under its own power, and be controlled solely by the remote."

 

BUT THEN...

 

"...2 VARIABLE circuits and 2 FIXED that are connected to outputs from a Z4000 with Z4k control box, which essentially means they are VARIABLE also.  If I didn't have the Z4k control box, I could run everything from the 4 VARIABLE circuits, or move an old TIU from my workbench to my layout and use its VARIABLES."

"...you can set the voltage and the conventional speed by using the transformer handle"

"...If you need more circuits, use a second TIU, a Z4000/Z4k, or use the transformer handles."

 

 

OR

 

"move a banana plug from point A to point B"

 

Banana plug = $.99 each

Z4000 with Z4k control box = a few dollars more!

 

 

I guess "simple is in the eye of the beholder"

 

I enjoyed our debate!  Sounds like the OP is bailing on DCS anyway....

 

Ed

 

 

 

Some above have asked about the controllers being too complicated. I think with all the reading about them and what they can do is making you gun shy.

Both the DCS and the Legacy controllers are easy to use and for the most part buttons are labeled.

If you can find someone or a club or hobby shop that will let you try the controller your fears will be put to rest. You can learn to turn engine off and on, drive it, ring the bell and whistle or horn in a few minutes. As for all the other stuff you can just slowly experiment. They are not complicated for basic use.

Let me make it simple.  There is absolutely no reason why a DCS loco can't be run on  variable track with the variable circuit in variable mode.  Nothing needs to be changed.

"To keep it simple learn to use 10 seconds of soft keys to change variable channels to fixed channels for command running."

 

Jim,

 

To be honest, when I tried this on my layout, a track which was variable is first turned down to 0 volts, then engine is changed (pick up conventional loco, put down DCS loco).  Then the channel is changed to Fixed (softkey you mention), but I believe a watchdog isn't sent so the DCS loco doesn't always come up in DCS "standby".  So I have to do a TIU power off/on to get the DCS loco in the right state.

 

I'm not challenging, but maybe I've been doing something wrong.  Any thoughts would be appreciated!

 

Ed

 

Jeff,  I concur!

Actually, Eddie, if a variable channel is set to fixed, it comes up immediately at the input voltage, and with the watchdog signal.  Since I usually run DCS, and my conventional locos power up in neutral (except for ancient ones with mechanical E units and transverse motors that I can't convert to PS2), I have set my variables to fixed so that whenever I power on the layout, loco batteries charge (unless they're in a block with the toggle switch off).  With 20 PS2 locos, keeping the batteries charged is a consideration.  I suggest you don't move the thumbwheel after powering up; just set the variable to fixed and see what happens next time you power up.

 

If a variable is set to fixed, once you roll the thumbwheel after pressing the TRK button, that track returns to variable for the duration of the power being on.  Which means you can run conventional without moving your banana plug.

 

I do quarrel with your math.  If I used your approach, I'd need more TIUs, since each of my 6 "loops" would have to have 2 TIU circuits available.  The system I have is needed because my basement layout, a 39' by 16' L-shaped giant, could have 8 or more locos running at once.  In case of a normal layout with one or 2 TIU circuits, you'd save the price of a banana plug.

eddiem,

I believe a watchdog isn't sent so the DCS loco doesn't always come up in DCS "standby".  So I have to do a TIU power off/on to get the DCS loco in the right state.

Two things of which you should be aware...

 

First, a watchdog signal is sent from a TIU channel every time the output of that channel changes from 0 volts to any other value.

 

Second, if a DCS engine (PS2/PS3) misses the watchdog, pressing Startup puts it right into DCS mode with lights and sounds. Pressing Shut Down puts it into DCS mode, dark and silent.

BTW...one of the first things I do w/ the handheld is to move that train wreck feature out of it for each engine! I am one that does not like it or use it.

Greg

Oh I don't know if I'd ever use it myself. Maybe listen to it once, but I'm almost positive my grandsons will get a kick out of it. And with no intention of offending any scale or prototypical operators, these are just toys, cool toys yes, but just sophisticated toys meant to be played with. And we intend to Play with them.

Hee Hee hee! That is one reason I moved it out. My grandson at 4 years old was fascinated by it. The sounds did not bother me, but as I recall, the train shut down! Too often when he had the control! But, you and your grandsons have a ball with it, they will love it! Not sure if you will after awhile!

 

Greg

I agree on the train wreck sound.  I moved it far away also.  One thing your grandson is about old enough to learn is to use the red button at the bottom if a wreck is imminent.  My youngest grandson, who is now 8, has used it for years when, in his judgment, a problem is arising.  His judgment doesn't always match mine, but when he's on the spot, he does what he thinks is called for.  He has saved me from some wrecks too, as when I forget to throw a switch.

 

I'll add a suggestion that I've stated elsewhere. Install an eye screw on the remote and clip a lanyard to it.  Concrete floors are tough on remotes.

 

Dlo Traf:  If you're like me, after seeing those conventional locos sitting on a shelf while you run DCS and really havr fun, you'll start converting the can motored ones (join MTH Club for better prices if you do the work yourself).  After doing all the can-motored locos, I converted a 2950 #736 Berkshire to PS2 by replacing the motor, but the design of the old Lionel worm gear is such it isn't a smooth runner.  But I can run it by DCS control so it does get used.

Yeah my youngest lives with me, 4 also. And I can see me getting irritated after about the 3rd or 4th time in a row he will surely do that. I forgot they shut down. But then too he likes just to watch them run and play with cars around the outside of the layout. I'll live.........................