Why 2 Rail???

Perhaps it's misinformation, or being just plain naive of what 2 rail is about and what is currently available in today's marketplace. I'd like someone to tell me my modest collection is not reflective of a wide variety, available to anyone:

Engines: GG1, E7, FA/B, F3, GP9, SW9, RF16A/B, RS3, RS11, E6s, FMtrainmaster, Brill660

Every one of these were originally produced as 2 rail models. Most of them new in production over the last 10 years. And only 1 of them cost more than $500.

DCC and DC can co-exist on the same layout within the same engine.

This is not the 1980's.

Man! Tons of great information and points of view to absorb. I have taken much of this into consideration. My modeling interests revolve around modern diesels, yes I like the steam era as well, but I would be focusing on the 6 and 4 axle diesels we see today. I have a strong passion for scale everything. I understand there may be a couple sacrifices to achieving a look of true scale, but those are based on my artistic abilities or lack there of.  I am a big fan of MTH simply because I love their DCS system. I notice that just about all their diesel engines are available in 2 rail. I also love Atlas rolling stock which is available in 2 rail. I still don't mind converting 3 rail stuff over. Actually I enjoy it. I only have about 100 pieces of rolling stock and maybe 15 engines, so converting these in time is fine with me. I don't think I will ever fix the pilots on the Hi rail engines, I will just buy scale wheeled engines going forward. I still have an operating 3 rail layout that I use, built at my folks house, but for my new home, I will go two rail. Even though the design thus far is an island type layout, I am designing it with R54 22.5 curves in RR track. I'm a big fan of multiple engines running and a freight yard so that is where my mind set is pointed towards.  I'm really not a "collector" I don't plan on buying 5 - 6 engines a year or any of the fancy limited edition stuff. Maybe 2 - 3 engines a year, maybe none. I just want to enjoy this incredible hobby for another 40 years with the realism 2 rail offers. I'm seeing more and more 2 rail interest and a heck of a lot of folks wanting to change over. I'm no clairvoyant, but I am willing to bet that we will be seeing more and more 2 rail items as time goes on. One thing for sure is I've re-kindled my desire for model railroading in a totally new fashion.

Robert many of the articulated engines out there today will negotiate as tight as a O-72 curve (36" radius) yes it will look silly but they will do it...heck most of the 3 rail stuff looks silly doing it for that matter.  The cost up front in many cases is in line with the 3 rail offerings from Lionel or MTH, one just needs to shop around.  When you reference "lots of real estate" that simply is not true in many, many cases...and Marc has stated he is in to diesels so a 36" radius is very do able. 

     Now the swinging bells is nice, provided the proto type had one that swung, and whistle smoke is cool to look at but in reality they are just more things to break that I have to fix later, that is purely my own opinion.  If the modeler is in to weathering his or her stuff the smoke can damage that plus it settles over time on to everything on the layout.  I have seen many 3 rail layouts that are running on bare plywood, soooo I don't know what that argument is but I would suggest you look at more layouts and especially the work here by John Sethian and Christopher N&W, they have some amazing scenery going on.  

      Now as for looking beyond the track I agree completely, there are many things to consider but cost and space are a moot point, equipment availability is important because not everything is available out of the box in 2 rail, but there is oohhhh so much that can be converted from the 3 rail side, and as John pointed out the costs are not that great, but that comes down to opinion and the ole' wallet.   I am operating MTH's DCS system on the 2 rail side and love it...plus I still have all those features if/when I choose to use them....truly a easy system to adapt to the 2 rail side.

Hey guys, let's lighten it up a little. I always enjoyed this cartoon:

You misunderstood.  Only 3 bought new that were produced over the past 20 years; one being from SMR and another from Sunset; the 3rd may be older, actually. so make that 2.  I have an order of magnitude more than that total which is almost silly given my layout.  I rarely feel any compulsion to run out and buy anything new.  In fact, it's rare that I think anything new is worth running out, checkbook in hand, foaming at mouth over, and getting as fast as possible, too.  It's called patience and being in a hobby for fun and for a long time, and for a long time to go.  I have no burning need for the little gee-gaws that seem to fascinate but rather look for models that fit in with my modeling objectives; that failing, I'll build something that does.of

I actually suspect you've misunderstood quite a lot regarding 2-rail modeling expecting it to be something entire different than what you expected and that's the primary reason why you left it. 

Yup!  I'm a Happy Boy!  (That's a Beat Farmers reference for you kiddies out there, )

 Modelrailroader,

 I'm not sure you're making any valid points. You talk about a Lionel Vision line with swinging bells like it's not expensive?? You act like no one offers a large steamer for a reasonable price in two rail? My MTH Allegheny costs less and is fine on my smaller layout. Settle for less?? I don't even understand how you can say that. I'm pretty sure plunking down some three rail track with three rail equipment running on it is settling.

 Lighten up? I thought we were discussing stuff but maybe you don't value other's opinions?

 Remember please, you're on the two rail forum trying to persuade someone from running in two rail?

 If you like Atlas rolling stock's detail as much as I do, and running MTH diesels in large consists with them, You will be pleased that you selected the proper track to run them on. You can build a layout or like me, I just run the heck out of them!

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrkZo35c08E

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P51LXHTylo

That's always humbling for me. I may have to actually build a layout soon!! Thank you. Watch the guys here like John, Chris, etc., etc., to see the right way to build a layout.

Yes you do...slacker.    You have done some great work and shouldn't sell yourself short.  Your diesel servicing bldg. was off the charts good. 

That explains the lights dimming all over the country.

Enginear-Joe:  {Settle for less?? I don't even understand how you can say that.]

Well Joe, sorry I struck a nerve with you. And I agree MTH has come out with some nice stuff in the last few years. But then what if MTH doesn't make the engine you might be looking for? Do you buy an expensive brass import and then put DCC in it? What whistle DCC module will you find? A K27 sound board put in say a PRR Duplex?

Show me a 2 rail engine that has the same PROTOTYPICAL working features as Lionel Vision Line Hudson in 2 rail. Oh wait, what's that, there aren't any? OK, you just settled for less. My point indeed.

Actually those nice folks at MTH make Northerns that will go around a 21" radius in 2 rail.   Just buy the hi-flange version and through the magic of Duo-Track -- oops, sorry, that was Kusan 50 years ago -- the magic of the "3-2" selector switch, set it for '2'.  That version might also "solve" the traction tire "problem".

Best regards, SZ

I'm really not sure what features you are describing. The extra smoke? How much did that engine cost? Yeah, they didn't sell many!! I'm pretty sure my PS3 engines have all I need. I've installed ps2 up til now in about every engine I've wanted. I put it in my 3rd rail Allegheny. I could put in blow down smoke too. That would leave you feeling empty?

I got a second Lionel 180 watt brick when I went past five engines. If I run smoke and too many G scale engines, I pull out the "bigboy". My Bridgewerks 25amp power!! I also have a pack that "tank" gave me here on the forum for another 25 amps. I can run a ton of engines on it too. I bought some MTH bricks also and just got another Bridgewerks 15amp, and may buy a third (25 amp). I used to own a rock'n roll sound and light show. I like power!!!

 where's Tom ZZZZZZZ.

Robert you can have all the bells and whistles you want but I wouldn't get all hopped up about the Vision Line Hudson, a great model yes but in the end just a remake of the 700e with the whistle smoke ect...cool yeah but not a show stopper by any means.  Now if you want to inhale all that smoke go right ahead, you want to listen to that completely realistic crew chatter ah hem...go right ahead but in the end you have the middle rail...and that is the compromise you made or "settled"....if you don't change out your lobster claw couplers....you settled again, and unless you get scale wheeled offerings from MTH you once again have settled for pizza cutters. 

    My point is that I don't think you settled you simply like what you like and compromised on certain things.  For me having the middle rail gone....huge leap at realism...the middle rail there....settled...I mean compromised.     

If there's a feature (moving bell or blow down smoke) that a person doesn't want...is that "settling for less"   by getting an engine that doesn't have it?

If a person only wants engines for a given RR and chooses not to buy everything that is offered...is that "settling for less" ?

I'm still 3-rail, but the ONLY reason for remaining 3-rail is I have enough invested (time and $$$) that it would be difficult for me to change over to 2-rail.  As it is, I have enough (10 engines, 50 pieces of rolling stock, and a 12x12 layout with 2x14 extension, 15 switches and no telling how many feet of 3-rail track) to keep me busy for a long time.  If I never buy another engine or boxcar I'll be fine.  I have 3 engine-related projects in the works and after that I don't know if I'll do anymore modifications or scratch builds.

But I sure do admire all the 2-rail stuff I see on this and other forums.  Most 2-railers appear to not be into "collecting", instead they spend their time making their layout as much like the prototype as possible and finding/modifying/building things that fit their RR.  It's not about who has the most stuff, it's about building a layout and trains that LOOK and OPERATE like a real RR.

How can anybody argue with that approach???

You guys may be misunderstanding him.  I believe he is saying that, for him, having a center rail is not at all bothersome, but doing without smoke and swinging balls would be a deal breaker.  That's a legitimate outlook.

Most of us are the opposite - we cannot stand totally unrealistic track, wheels, and couplers, and smoke makes us sick.  For me, even sound can be annoying.

To each his or her own, I guess.

Robert E said:

OK, you just settled for less

You're right.  Less rails

The practical point in this is if I wanted a vision line Hudson model for 2 rail (I don't want one), I'd simply buy one in 3 rail from Lionel and have it converted.

If there's 2 rails in your way of thinking... you may find that 3 rails will never cut it.  I was in a similar boat as you are, Marc. 

That said... I did something different and looked around at other options in additon to O 2 rail, or returning to tiny HO.  I settled on scale S.  Doing so, I gained 30% more layout in the same space I had to work with when in 3R.  (This is a general rule of thumb: 30% more layout in a given space compared to O scale.)  No way to get as much layout per square foot that I now have in S scale compared to 2 rail O scale.

SOOooooo...

Before you commit to anything and spend lots of money... perhaps consider taking a serious look at S scale NOW and see if it may be a viable option?  Trust me, there are many that truly see scale S for the first time and lament that fact they have so much invested in "X" scale (HO, N, O, whatever.)  Consider checking out scale S NOW before you jump in to O scale.  You can then make a qualified decision and either rule it out, or get more interested in it... either way it's a win with less chance for regrets later.

FWIW: Here's a pic of my in-process scale S layout...

And here's a link to the National Association of S Gaugers website. (A lot of information there.)  Note there is a section for SCALE S modeling.

http://www.nasg.org/index.html

And here's a link to the S scale SIG website that deals only with scale S modeling.

http://sscale.org/

Lastly, here's a Youtube version of the "Tracks Ahead" segment of Ed Loizeaux's NYC based S scale layout.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...t=PLAAA5594BE9AA9C88

Anyway... just trying to help you look at as many options as practical before you commit and sink the $$$ into your choice.

Good luck and have fun!

Andre

One of the reasons I chose O Scale is that it is bigger than S Scale and lots bigger than HO.  Just me.

Thanks - lots of good info here.  I just picked up a brass diner from Sunset (74' scale feet and it won't go thru my O72 curves), so it looks like I'll be doing track mods anyway. Given this, the move to 2R might be closer than I think.  Now to the basement to see how much I can widen those curves!

...gregg

Interesting. I didnt know that a MTH northern could handle a smaller 21" radius curve in 2 rail, as you said with the high flange version.

1.  Disclaimer:  I don't know of anybody that's done this -- certainly not me !.
2.  Only the 1st and 4th drivers have flanges in the hi-rail version, the middle two drivers are flangeless.  This suggests, but does not prove, that the scale drivered

version MIGHT also navigate as sharp a curve if blind drivers were substituted/machined in those positions AND there was no [ significant ] rail climb.

There may be other differences between the two models, and the coupler arrangements would also require attention.

SZ

Actually those nice folks at MTH make Northerns that will go around a 21" radius in 2 rail.   Just buy the hi-flange version and through the magic of Duo-Track -- oops, sorry, that was Kusan 50 years ago -- the magic of the "3-2" selector switch, set it for '2'.  That version might also "solve" the traction tire "problem".

Steinzeit

I was surprised that you posted that. It is misleading and not helpful to Marc, our original poster. 

The three rail versions of the MTH SP GS-4 and ATSF 2900 Northerns that I referred to require 27" radius/54 inch diameter per the MTH web site.

While you might run a locomotive with three rail wheels on two rail track in a circle under a Christmas tree you could not run it on a model railroad.  You would have a problem as soon as you encountered a switch designed for RP-25 wheels.

Then I read your recent post.

1.  Disclaimer:  I don't know of anybody that's done this -- certainly not me !

Let's keep to the facts so Marc can make a well informed decision. 

2 rail lurker I am. So the bottomline with 2 rail MTH and other brands of locomotives your speaking of is that they require at least 6'-10' + of radius, dependent upon what you run.

 My average 2 rail MTH go around a 40 something radius approx. (I'm guessing). I have some tight curves in the yards that are hand bent flex and all my engines run them. I would guess they are like high thirties? (37"?)

 Some will go less like smaller 4 axle diesels and steamers. You can't make a general statement like that about the whole line?

Seacoast,

That is incorrect. I am assuming you are confusing radius with diameter. My MTH N&W 4-8-4 will easily negotiate a 4' radius which is 8' diameter. It actually negotiates much less than that. My MTH A class 2-6-6-2 engines will negotiate 3' radius which is 6' diameter. The 2-6-6-2 and other large engines can negotiate sharp curves if they are articulated. Again, they look pretty bad on those tight curves but that is subjective.

Also, the importers stated minimums often are not true. They usually give themselves some wiggle room. Often times I'll bet they don't even have a test track under a certain limit.

Boy, I sure missed that - my most finicky models only require a 6' radius, and that includes a 4-12-2 with full cylinders, tailbeam, and closely coupled tender.  Ten foot radius is just nice, but never necessary, and for MTH it looks like five feet will cover everything they make.

Another thing I miss is when you guys repeat a previous post verbatim.  It confuses my pea sized brain.  Why not just select a sentence of interest for emphasis?  And instead of repeating an entire post without comment, why not a simple "I agree"?

Here is my data for all the locos I have run.  (C) denotes converted from 3 rail.

MTH ES 44 Diesel............................40" Radius

MTH L1  2-8-2 Mikado..............:......40" radius

MTH I1 2-10-0 Decapod...................44" radius  (middle driver blind, per the prototype)

MTH H-10 2-8-0 Consolidation............40" radius

MTH GG1 (C)...................................36" radius

Lionel GG1 (C).................................36" radius

MTH Aerotrain (C).............................36" radius

MTH P5a (C).....................................44" radius (pilots fixed, this limits radius)

Sunset GG1......................................48" radius

Sunset M1b (C).................................44" radius

MTH Trainmaster.................................40" radius

Atlas Erie Built A-B-A.........................40" radius

Weaver BP-20.......................................44" radius

Williams K4 Streamlined......................44" radius

Atlas SD-35...........................................44" radius

Atlas RS-1.............................................36" radius

Atlas RSD-7...........................................40" radius

MTH F7 ABBA .....................................44" radius (after being reworked for closer coupling, before was 36" radius)

Sunset K4s..........................................44" radius

Westside PRR 2-10-4 J1a.......................44" Radius

That Westside was an outstanding scale model.  It is a huge locomotive. It had been previously owned by Ed Rappe who reworked it to go around tighter radius curves.  Primarily he added some side play in the drivers, but also trimmed back the insides of the cylinders  I don't think even Ed envisioned it going around a 44" radius curve. To be fair, I did have easements to the curves. Nevertheless this was on a test track I built to evaluate for the real radius requirements for 2 rail.  After watching that monster smoothly glide forwards and backwards through those curves, I came to two conclusions:  1) I am definitely going to 2 rail.  2) The need for humongous radius curves, from an operational viewpoint, is a total myth.

Yes,  your're correct I did confuse my radius vs. diameter.

I've had plenty of 2 rail models running on the old Atlas 24" sectional track when I started out in O scale.  Weaver RS-3s and GP38s, Atlas SW9, 40' and 50' cars.  Have a Sunset Samson that would happily run on it all day long without issues.  Even had some Williams 70' passenger cars that had NWSL wheelsets and Kadees mounted directly on the body without issues.  Had a Weaver GS2 that needed 36" radius, and I've seen the Williams AC-12 take to those same 36" curves without running issues.  Yes, aesthetically, they left something to be desired, but they all worked fine.  The old line of needing broad radius curves are a myth.

Now, DCC has a lot of different sound types so you can equip your PRR Duplex with a PRR whistle.  Got N&W engines?  Get the N&W whistle.  SP engines have SP sounds, and so on.  Run diesels?  Put the appropriate Alco or Baldwin sound in your model.  No, unlike 3 rail where the generic sounds might be a mishmash of sounds, especially the diesels, you can get your model sounding exactly like the prototype.  Heck, if you gotta have that radio chatter in your Hudson, you can get that too.  But at least the rest of it will sound exactly like a Hudson!

On that vision line Hudson, does the valve gear cutoff position itself for the proper direction?  Does the sound emanate from the stack like the prototype?  That steam escaping from the steam chest into the atmosphere is what causes that chuff, and gives us that appealing stack talk.  Does it run on two rails like the prototype?  Do the figures in the cab move the throttle and pull the whistle cord as appropriate?

Life is a compromise.  Verify facts, pick what suits you and don't listen to those who slam others. 

I agree.

I agree.  

Originally Posted by CWEX:

I agree.  

But then we would have to settle for less