a diesel engine pouring white smoke isn’t a good thing in my experience, so why do people want smoke units in diesels? to me it’s always seemed like unnecessary accessory to justify higher cost, but i’m curious what you guys think about them.
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Signalwoman posted:a diesel engine pouring white smoke isn’t a good thing in my experience, so why do people want smoke units in diesels? to me it’s always seemed like unnecessary accessory to justify higher cost, but i’m curious what you guys think about them.
My experience has been; because "smoke", and all the other "steam exiting features", are for play factor in the toy train world.
You are correct. A diesel will put out some black smoke when it is working hard, If it is putting out a lot of smoke it's time for a trip the repair shop. I run my diesels on low smoke.
Jim D.
No idea. I just don't turn them on. Looks more realistic that way.
Unless it's an ALCO with a 244. Then turn it on for starting a train and shut it off.
The market demanded it. Why? Who really knows. Play value is a somewhat dubious reason, particularly given the recent Asthma and Train Smoke thread.
After I verify they work, steam or diesel, I turn off all my smoke units. And yeah, I used to like smoke some 25-30 years ago, (I once had a postwar 736 I rescued from scrap and it could really lay down a fog...) but smoke is no longer important or a selling point to me.
To my mind, many folks seem more interested in the features than the actual hobby of model railroading. Lionel could probably offer motorized 2x4's with smoke and sound and folks would buy them...
Rusty
Not all model train manufacturers include smoke units. Try Williams by Bachman....nice, sharp looking trains. And I believe older K Line diesels dont have smoke units...
for the record i like smoke, from a steam engine. i don’t normally run smoke but that’s beside the point. i just don’t like my diesels to look like they're burning oil, and i certainly wouldn’t pay extra for it. maybe i’m just boring and cheap lol
How about a dose of realism. A diesel engine is a combustion engine that burn diesel fuel and has an exhaust. Realistically the exhaust is much less present than the vapor exhaust of a steam engine. Diesel exhaust should be kept to a minimum.. BTW I prefer to run my diesels with the smoke unit OFF.
good topic...
I find it to be another toy to play with, steam or diesel, sometimes smoke on sometimes smoke off but, I like it available.
Ray
L.I.TRAIN posted:How about a dose of realism. A diesel engine is a combustion engine that burn diesel fuel and has an exhaust. Realistically the exhaust is much less present than the vapor exhaust of a steam engine. Diesel exhaust should be kept to a minimum.. BTW I prefer to run my diesels with the smoke unit OFF.
good topic...
i live about 250 feet from an active rail line, i’m not saying smoke is never detectable, but you have to look hard for it, and when you can see it, it’s black. the only times i’ve seen white smoke is if an engine is really sick or worn out. apart from that, sometimes a little humidity in winter.
Signalwoman posted:a diesel engine pouring white smoke isn’t a good thing in my experience, so why do people want smoke units in diesels? to me it’s always seemed like unnecessary accessory to justify higher cost, but i’m curious what you guys think about them.
Because idiots such as me like them. And we are disappointed when manufacturers try to make more “prototypical” models with limited smoke output at idle or low rpm.
That said, the finest model diesel I have, the VL GE Evo, has a simulated eco-friendly smoke output that does not run continuously but only in stages depending on speed and the load on the engine. It’s fascinating to watch.
Sorry, ultimately all of this is about play value, IMHO.
Jim D posted:You are correct. A diesel will put out some black smoke when it is working hard, If it is putting out a lot of smoke it's time for a trip the repair shop. I run my diesels on low smoke.
Jim D.
Unless you are running early ALCOs which produced LOTS of smoke.
I do enjoy having the option. Smoke units have been become so ubiquitous that I was shocked and disappointed recently when I received a new MTH SW1200 (30-20587-1) with no smoke unit.
Signalwoman posted:a diesel engine pouring white smoke isn’t a good thing in my experience, so why do people want smoke units in diesels? to me it’s always seemed like unnecessary accessory to justify higher cost, but i’m curious what you guys think about them.
Because an engine like this has coolant. If that coolant can get into the combustion chamber somehow, you have an effect that looks like steam!
Here's a new generation engine that has this condition. I think it's cool. (OK, I forgot to turn down the effect)
watch the end!
here's what a good looking one is to me
I think it adds some excitement to the (imaginary?) struggle effect that the engines are doing to yank a train up the hill. The pros might say it's not correct. Our grandson said once, "don't wreck my fun!"
If you don't think diesels should emit smoke, you haven't been track side long enough. I fear that even some pros sitting in the cab don't get to see what's really happening up on top.
Engineer-Joe posted:Signalwoman posted:a diesel engine pouring white smoke isn’t a good thing in my experience, so why do people want smoke units in diesels? to me it’s always seemed like unnecessary accessory to justify higher cost, but i’m curious what you guys think about them.
Because an engine like this has coolant. If that coolant can get into the combustion chamber somehow, you have an effect that looks like steam!
Here's a new generation engine that has this condition. I think it's cool. (OK, I forgot to turn down the effect)
Really ? Come on - who really triple heads a 100 plus car consist. I mean REALLY ??
So do you have any other cars sitting or all the y all on the layout !
JK, Joe - looks great 
trumptrain posted:Jim D posted:You are correct. A diesel will put out some black smoke when it is working hard, If it is putting out a lot of smoke it's time for a trip the repair shop. I run my diesels on low smoke.
Jim D.
Unless you are running early ALCOs which produced LOTS of smoke.
Except,,,,,,,,,,,,it was ALWAYS black smoke!
They have them because real diesel-electrics smoke. Period. How much, under what circumstances, what color smoke is produced are all variable based on brand, load and condition - and era. There are stringent unburned hydrocarbons standard for locomotives, just like for your internal combustion car.
In the past, Alcos (and GE's) were known for lots of black smoke. This was due to turbo lag, causing an overly rich mixture. Also, a malfunctioning turbo will cause this constantly. These were and are 4-cycle engines.
Until relatively recently, EMD prime movers were non-turbocharged 2-cycle units, and, like your Yamaha dirt bike back in the day, they blew blue/white oil smoke. It was normal.
For both steam and diesel, the model white "smoke" (it's oil vapor in the model, not smoke, BTW) is incorrect most of the time. "Smoke" (that is, from combustion) tends to be black/gray/brown. Oil smoke is blue/white, and steam - water vapor - is very white in light as it begins to condense into tiny droplets.
Also - a steam loco at steady speed with good fuel and a good fireman makes very little "smoke" of any kind. This does, however, vary wildly. Some of the smoky photos of steamers were done for the benefit of the cameras, also.
When the proper color of smoke can be replicated and it is present when it needs to be. For instance, cold start up, in a hard pull or push, and advancement to higher notches up to 8, I'd be interested. Until then, I'd prefer not smoking up the room with diesel smoke that doesn't look realistic to me.
I don't mind the smoke on the many postwar steam locomotives I have or my only LC steam engine, a Pennsy 0-8-0. Sometimes I prefer if they don't smoke, for I quit smoking almost 5 years ago, myself. I still like the smell of smoke though.
Rusty
D500 posted:They have them because real diesel-electrics smoke. Period. How much, under what circumstances, what color smoke is produced are all variable based on brand, load and condition - and era. There are stringent unburned hydrocarbons standard for locomotives, just like for your internal combustion car.
In the past, Alcos (and GE's) were known for lots of black smoke. This was due to turbo lag, causing an overly rich mixture. Also, a malfunctioning turbo will cause this constantly. These were and are 4-cycle engines.
Until relatively recently, EMD prime movers were non-turbocharged 2-cycle units,
What do you consider "relatively recently"? The EMD turbocharged 16 cylinder 567 prime movers appeared in the SD24 and GP20 models of 1959!
and, like your Yamaha dirt bike back in the day, they blew blue/white oil smoke.
When cold and first started and or first loaded.
It was normal.
Not really.
For both steam and diesel, the model white "smoke" (it's oil vapor in the model, not smoke, BTW) is incorrect most of the time. "Smoke" (that is, from combustion) tends to be black/gray/brown. Oil smoke is blue/white, and steam - water vapor - is very white in light as it begins to condense into tiny droplets.
Also - a steam loco at steady speed with good fuel and a good fireman makes very little "smoke" of any kind. This does, however, vary wildly. Some of the smoky photos of steamers were done for the benefit of the cameras, also.
One way to look at model train diesels smoking. It was converted to steam.
The old pill type pellets left a chalk type residue. Not sure if the new type does. But what caused it make it turn grey. If it could be added to fluid.
How about electrics with smoke?
Mth Bipolar electric has smoke. it is for the steam heat generator but is an odd feature for an ELECTRIC .
I ran it once with the smoke on, but it looked so odd smoking between the pantagraphs that I haven't turned it on again.
The only model trains I run that smoke are Roundhouse steamers (and it is on G-gauge track, outside). It is realistic smoke: Near stoichiometric combustion of butane (nearly invisible) and cylinder exhausted steam.
If there were model railroad imitation black smoke i would strongly consider for my O-gauge steam and early ALCO diesel models.
When I was living in Roanoke in the Eighties I remember looking at the former Virginian yard and watching idling N&W diesel locos putting up a fair amount of visible exhaust. I have no doubt that a diesel emitting smoke could be realistic. In terms of play value I don't see diesel smoke in the same league as steam exhaust. The exhaust cloud a steam loco produces even at 1/48 scale would be far more noticeable than the exhaust from any properly functioning diesel I have witnessed on the move.
That said when I am running my trains for my own enjoyment the smoke units are always off.
As previously mentioned, play value. Just like the sound systems. Like all of the sounds on the toy trains I have, smoke gets old after a while and I turn it off. The fan smoke units make great smoke, but it doesn't take very long to get overwhelmed. Personally I would rather pay less for a diesel without the smoke unit.
All I'm gonna say is that a lot of you look like you've blown a turbo. That is all. LOL
Signalwoman posted:i live about 250 feet from an active rail line, i’m not saying smoke is never detectable, but you have to look hard for it, and when you can see it, it’s black. the only times i’ve seen white smoke is if an engine is really sick or worn out. apart from that, sometimes a little humidity in winter.
Certainly true, and much of the time, the stack of a steamer is also blowing black smoke. This has also gotten a lot of mileage here, the bottom line is you can't get black smoke from model trains without depositing particulate matter all over the room! So, we just have to imagine it's black and move on.
Because it’s fun
I appreciate the above comments, which taught me something about the steam and smoke of real locomotives.
I like the dramatic effect of the smoke for my steamers and diesels. Smoke in moderation works for me. I rarely run more than one locomotive at a time, which helps keep the smoke in moderation. Arnold
doesn't look very black here?
My diesels are to young to smoke. 
Engineer-Joe posted:doesn't look very black here?
That's the first one I've seen with white smoke. You've changed my opinion though I still won't turn mine on.
When I got my first K-line F-7 set and turned it on I thought they put a steam engine inside. I never use it in my diesels. Don
Engineer-Joe posted:doesn't look very black here?
So,,,,,,,,,,what part of "cold start" did you miss?????
Still waiting for one that shoots out flames.
The most smoke exhaust currently comes from damaged GE locomotives.
If you had seen diesel engine powered locomotives between 1950 to 2000 you would have seen them emitting a great deal more exhaust than they do currently.
Old ALCo units in use on switching shortlines still produce exhaust smoke.
The smoke shows that the diesel engine is working hard pulling a freight train.
Andrew
Lots of diesel cold start smoke in this video.
falconservice posted:The most smoke exhaust currently comes from damaged GE locomotives.
They don't necessarily have to be "damaged" as that is the result of turbo-lag, which is characteristic of virtually 4-stroke cycle, turbocharged Diesel engines in railroad locomotives. Thus the exhaust is mostly always black smoke.
If you had seen diesel engine powered locomotives between 1950 to 2000 you would have seen them emitting a great deal more exhaust than they do currently.
Maybe, but certainly NOT white smoke, when under load.
Old ALCo units in use on switching shortlines still produce exhaust smoke.
Yes, but again, it is black smoke.
The smoke shows that the diesel engine is working hard pulling a freight train.
Then how do you explain diesel units that are properly maintained that produce very little visible exhaust when under heavy load?
Andrew
The CN has several BCOL GE C40-8M units that generate a large amount of black smoke.
To create black smoke requires carbon, very fine carbon for scale models. The more realistic smoke unit would have to store, then propel the fine, black carbon through the exhaust stack. The 'puffer' would need to be synchronized with the sound board.
Andrew
Signalwoman posted:a diesel engine pouring white smoke isn’t a good thing in my experience, so why do people want smoke units in diesels? to me it’s always seemed like unnecessary accessory to justify higher cost, but i’m curious what you guys think about them.
Pleasant changeable fragrance. Steamer comes around, a nice nose hit, close your eyes. Then relive childhood memories. Life’s to short. That’s just me, but I had what I thought was an easy answer.
A smoke fluid scent that smells great is JTs Mega-Steam Candy Cane Express.
The smoke unit can pump out the scent that smells just like the diesel fuel scent that can be smelled when some locomotives are running trains through the area.
Andrew
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