Why are some folks selling their new Lionel engines already?

Minds change

Dropping out of the hobby

Spent too much

Probably a mix off all of the above.  I see people obviously trying to flip brand new engines, which is kind of dumb unless a piece happens to be the rare sold-out preorder.

Me personally, I've sold a few new ones because I ended up not liking them as much as I thought I would.  For instance, I have a circa 2006 NYC L2A Mohawk with Railsounds 5.  After seeing and running the recent 2021 release, I ended up liking the old one more.  I must say, of recent Lionel, the Vision Class A was the only one I've been thoroughly pleased with.  MTH and Atlas have nearly always proved satisfactory though.

I think some of this behavior stems from buyers remorse when Lionel produces a model that leaves more to be desired. I’ve seen a lot of Legacy Dreyfus hudsons hit the market and these shipped not long ago. I’m sure the way off colors have a lot to do with this. The Strasburg decapods have been appearing in quantity lately as well. I understand they didn’t run as well as people expected.

Meanwhile other models show very infrequently like the Vision SP GS offerings. A select few have surfaced and seem to be holding their value.

Good thread...

@Ryan Selvius posted:

I think some of this behavior stems from buyers remorse when Lionel produces a model that leaves more to be desired. I’ve seen a lot of Legacy Dreyfus hudsons hit the market and these shipped not long ago. I’m sure the way off colors have a lot to do with this. The Strasburg decapods have been appearing in quantity lately as well. I understand they didn’t run as well as people expected.

Meanwhile other models show very infrequently like the Vision SP GS offerings. A select few have surfaced and seem to be holding their value.

Seeing all the Dreyfuss engines for sale recently is what prompted me to make the post.  And yes those Visionline Southern Pacific GS engines are fantastic!

I'm not aware that "everyone" is selling their new Lionel engines. But I have a comment about mine.

Pictures show two of my Lionel 4-6-0 Ten-Wheelers. New York Central/B&A #1916 has TMCC (6-28098) and was made in 2002. New York Central #1232 is a Legacy model (2131070) made in 2021. Both are beautiful locomotives. But I prefer the older one. Why? Three reasons.

1) The older #1916 has a manual volume control to adjust the sound loudness when running with conventional transformer control - the newer #1232 does not, so its steam sounds are not loud enough for me and cannot be adjusted under conventional control - which is how I run.

2) Note the colors of the smoke boxes on the two engines. In my opinion, the older locomotive has a realistic graphite color - the newer one does not.

3) On the older engine, traction tires are on the rear driving wheels and are easy to change. On the newer engine, traction tires are on the front driving wheels and are more difficult to change.

I think the older product is better. But the points I mentioned are not sufficient to cause me to sell the newer Lionel engine.

MELGAR

I'm guilty of this in the case of the Dreyfuss. It wasn't the color that bugged me. It was more so its sound package felt a little underwhelming.

I'm keeping my Strasburg Decapod since I am happy with it, but I have seen quite a few of the second run Vision Big Boys pop up second hand.

I think a lot of us are guilty of buying on impulse riding the hype train, and once that effect wears off for the next flashy thing, old thing becomes yesterday's news.

@Mikado 4501 posted:

I think a lot of us are guilty of buying on impulse riding the hype train, and once that effect wears off for the next flashy thing, old thing becomes yesterday's news.

   I think this is one of the most true statements in this thread thus far. More so for the younger modelers, IMO.

   Dave

Just another example of changing societal norms...

Sorta like throw-away short-lived marriages...Dear today, gone tomorrow.

Been-there-done-thats........  (Peggy Lee sang about it in 1969..."Is that all there is?")

Buyers' remorse...about everything: Material goods, political choices, interpersonal relationships, educational/career choices, blah, blah...

Never really in the "budget"...but gotta keep up with the crowd.

Etc., etc., etc..

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Heyl!!!  Where'd that mirror come from??

I think the negative comments about the Dreyfuss online have affected people's willingness to keep or accept delivery of the model.  Social pressure .  No one wants to think they've been taken for a fool or own a lemon.  And some folks genuinely want a loco to look a certain way.  As in darker gray.  Closer to what most people think the prototype looked like.

Back in the day, say 1980s and early 1990s,  when supply was constrained, lots of folks bought Lionel locos for immediate resale.  I don't see it as a big issue one way or the other unless buying drops off substantially.  Dave Olson said they are doing a second run of the Base 3 this fall because they wildly underestimated the demand.   That's a better indicator of the health of the marketplace than secondary sales I'd guess.

I think it is more people feel they have to order them because of BTO, and they think they will miss out if they don't and so they order all this stuff and then realize they don't really want it.

Nothing on BTO has sold out where you can't get one after it is released.   I see Strasburg 90's for 300.00 off!  Everyone thought you wouldn't be able to get one if you did not pre-order.  People can't get rid of them, lol.

I do not Preorder anymore at all - I wait and see what it looks and sounds like at the dealer and then decide.

Every time a catalog comes out everyone jumps on the Pre-order bandwagon, lol.

So now I just let everyone else buy them and wait for the discount when they don't want them and sell them at a lower cost.

@dkdkrd posted:

Just another example of changing societal norms...

Sorta like throw-away short-lived marriages...Dear today, gone tomorrow.

Been-there-done-thats........  (Peggy Lee sang about it in 1969..."Is that all there is?")

Buyers' remorse...about everything: Material goods, political choices, interpersonal relationships, educational/career choices, blah, blah...

Never really in the "budget"...but gotta keep up with the crowd.

Etc., etc., etc..

.

.

.

Heyl!!!  Where'd that mirror come from??

Sir, you have no place on this forum adults are not wanted here…….LMAO

I buy my trains like I buy my automobiles. Let the me, me me I want it group rush in pay the big money then I will buy it from them for less than they paid and I have what I want…..LMAO. Again!

a perfect example of this is I just purchased six Long Island railroad passenger cars for the price of less than four, like my father always would say stand back and watch then when you want it, move in and get it at a good price.

I'd say at least 90% of my locomotive purchases have been 2nd hand.  Of the new ones I've purchased, I haven't felt the need to sell any of them within a year or two.  I've turned over a few that were 8-10 years old, but I don't see that as the same thing.

@MELGAR posted:

3) On the older engine, traction tires are on the rear driving wheels and are easy to change. On the newer engine, traction tires are on the front driving wheels and are more difficult to change.

Putting the traction tires in front always mystified me.  I can't understand why that happens, and it does make them a PITA to change.  My Vision CC2 is one example, that looks like a giant PITA to change the tires!

They sell their Lionel engines so they can buy more Lionel engines. Dave

How could you not want to look at the hot dog Challenger the rest of your life?? What a beaut!

If I’m going to sell an item I have usually had it a few years and enjoyed it. My way of thinking is that if I see something that I think I might want I will check it off and look at it for a few days and then either buy it or delete it from my list. It’s not a spur of the moment thing. That’s much the same way Eric of Eric’s Trains goes about doing it.

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

How could you not want to look at the hot dog Challenger the rest of your life?? What a beaut!

Too funny!!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'd say at least 90% of my locomotive purchases have been 2nd hand.  Of the new ones I've purchased, I haven't felt the need to sell any of them within a year or two.  I've turned over a few that were 8-10 years old, but I don't see that as the same thing.

Putting the traction tires in front always mystified me.  I can't understand why that happens, and it does make them a PITA to change.  My Vision CC2 is one example, that looks like a giant PITA to change the tires!

Same here. Almost all of my collection I bought second hand. I bought the latest release of the Visionline big boy and I love it.  It was expensive but I saved for it.

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

How could you not want to look at the hot dog Challenger the rest of your life?? What a beaut!

Norm, I didn't understand your hot dog reference because I'm not a big steam guy, so I'm not very knowledgeable about new steam product offerings.  I just did a Google search and found it.  Now I can't stop laughing!!!

@Sean's Train Depot posted:

I think it is more people feel they have to order them because of BTO, and they think they will miss out if they don't and so they order all this stuff and then realize they don't really want it.

Nothing on BTO has sold out where you can't get one after it is released.   I see Strasburg 90's for 300.00 off!  Everyone thought you wouldn't be able to get one if you did not pre-order.  People can't get rid of them, lol.

I do not Preorder anymore at all - I wait and see what it looks and sounds like at the dealer and then decide.

I don't preorder, either. (By the way, you're lucky if you can see items at a dealer. Many folks, like me, don't have any large dealers around and can only see items via photos at places like Mr. Muffin or the Forum.)  And yes, most items you can find after they're released. That said, while there are exceptions, I've found that with many items, and probably the majority, if you don't pick one up within a reasonable time after release, you're going to have trouble finding it. They're gone.

@Grampstrains posted:

What do you mean by "everybody"?  I don't know if I'm included with everybody.  I have 25 new Lionel engines.  None are for sale.

It’s called hyperbole

You, like others of us, have done it “right” in the sense we make careful decisions about what we buy. Doesn’t always pan out but often does. Others get caught up in the hype for a new model or don’t think through their decisions about pre-ordering from the catalog. Then buyers remorse kicks in or they get a lemon.

I went a bit nuts with my Vision GS orders but I was calculated about it. Models and paint schemes were released that I always wanted and I already had prior GS-2 and GS-6 releases so I knew what to expect. Overall, Lionel did a great job on this release albeit there were still little things they goofed but I can live with it. These models will stay in my collection for a very long time.

@CNJ #1601 posted:

Norm, I didn't understand your hot dog reference because I'm not a big steam guy, so I'm not very knowledgeable about new steam product offerings.  I just did a Google search and found it.  Now I can't stop laughing!!!

That paint scheme has to be one of the ugliest ones I've seen recently.  Obviously, this is my personal opinion, but I think it's shared by a fairly wide swath of people.

All but one (MTH George Bush UP 4141 in two-rail) of my engines are used and most of the rest are over twenty years old. So I am glad that folks decide to sell relatively new engines!

EDIT: They were relatively new when I bought some of them.

The way some have taken to buy things online, has changed their perspective on purchases.  Many retailers were offering free returns if not satisfied.  Saw where people would order clothes in multiple sizes, than try them on and only keep one that fit best.  These returns were costing online merchants dearly.  So if not sure you want the latest loco, buy it, look it over and then return.  Oh wait can't return, well heck just sell it NIB. 

FYI - Everyone doesn't have to sell them.  I will accept any as a "charitable donation".  IRS may frown on that though since I am not a registered non-profit.

I have accumulated enough engines that I've decided I really, really must be in LOVE with a loco to buy or order it.  I passed on the Virginian Triplex because it was too fantasy -- as cool as it would have been to operate a Triplex, not my thing.  I do very much like my new oil burning ultra gloss Big Boy though, weak whistle aside.

I also have a "most wanted" list of items that I look for on the used market.  A number of them are previous Vision Line models where I'm fairly certain that Lionel will re-run them at some point, so I'll just wait and maybe pick up a few new cool features unless one pops up at an exceptional price.  GG1, Centipedes, Niagara, etc.  Then there are a number of 3rd Rail engines and GGD passenger sets I missed out on that I look for, and am gradually checking those off too.  A lot of times it's a single E unit or car to fill out a consist I already have.

So at the end of the day, I seldom see the need to re-sell a given engine because I really thought about it before pulling the trigger.

@Mikado 4501 posted:

I'm guilty of this in the case of the Dreyfuss. It wasn't the color that bugged me. It was more so its sound package felt a little underwhelming.

Mikado, you nailed it! Very underwhelming.

I bought a pair of RS-11s in 2022 and one trip around the track and I knew they would be on the auction block. They were shelf queens for a bout. year before I got around to selling. The cheesy sounding "rail sounds" were nothing more than Wife Wakers. Super obnoxious. If I turned the volume down to the point that they were tolerable, you couldn't hear the engine. The color was too bright (yellow) and they didn't smoke to my liking. Cost me a couple hundred to get rid of them, but oh well.....

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

How could you not want to look at the hot dog Challenger the rest of your life?? What a beaut!

I'm sure you could do some of your weathering magic on it too make it work. Make the weathering a nice sauerkraut look.. maybe some onions too

A possible but satirical explanation for selling new Lionel locos ...

The wife found out about it and insisted that it be sold ASAP and the cost of that purchase be transformed into a down payment on a SUV for her -- or else sleep in the doghouse in the back yard.

Just saying ...

Mike M.

@MainLine Steam posted:

So if not sure you want the latest loco, buy it, look it over and then return.  Oh wait can't return, well heck just sell it NIB.

Unforunately, that's sometimes a reality for those of us who have no dealers of substance around. If there isn't much information about a given item, including sufficient photos, the only option is to buy one and hope it meets expectations. If not, it gets sold in new condition, almost always with a significant dollar penalty. Ugh! Been there done that more times than I want to remember! 

I’m surprised at the amount of NIB BTO engines available on the secondhand market.  I thought the whole purpose of BTO was to limit supply to only what could be sold. This phenomenon varies greatly by brand. For example, Sunset/3rd Rail seems to do a very good job of limiting production to orders. It’s very difficult to find their engines and cars on the secondhand market these days. Of course, they also don’t produce engines for dealer orders, so that knocks out some speculative buying.  

I think some of it might have to do with the never ending slew of mechanical issues too.

Had I not got such a good deal on the PRR L1s I would have returned it or maybe sold it. It still bugs me.

@breezinup posted:

Unforunately, that's sometimes a reality for those of us who have no dealers of substance around. If there isn't much information about a given item, including sufficient photos, the only option is to buy one and hope it meets expectations. If not, it gets sold in new condition, almost always with a significant dollar penalty. Ugh! Been there done that more times than I want to remember! 

I understand where you are coming from, I don't have a LHS to go to and look it over before buying.  My solution though is to wait until the item gets reviewed online by one of the many social media people.  Usually some YouTube Videos within a week of it being sent out by Manufacturer.  The problem with this approach if it is well received and just plan awesome you may not be able to get it until it is "rerun".  I realize you aren't always guaranteed a second run but..... If it is that well received, the manufacturer has incentive to rerun it, because they know demand would be there.  On the other hand my life doesn't depend on getting ANY Locomotive ever made.  These are nice toys not oxygen.  And if patient, at some point one will become available.

This premise of this topic is inaccurate, a classic some/all fallacy, as clearly "everyone" is not selling their new Lionel engines. That said, to the extent that some folks are selling new Lionel engines, which is also clearly the case as reported by a number of Forum members, I have to believe that the economy is a factor.

Pat

@MainLine Steam posted:

I understand where you are coming from, I don't have a LHS to go to and look it over before buying.  My solution though is to wait until the item gets reviewed online by one of the many social media people.  Usually some YouTube Videos within a week of it being sent out by Manufacturer.  The problem with this approach if it is well received and just plan awesome you may not be able to get it until it is "rerun".  I realize you aren't always guaranteed a second run but..... If it is that well received, the manufacturer has incentive to rerun it, because they know demand would be there.  On the other hand my life doesn't depend on getting ANY Locomotive ever made.  These are nice toys not oxygen.  And if patient, at some point one will become available.

You said it best! These are nice toys; expensive but nice toys. I think a lot of people forget that these trains are just that, nice toys.

Case in point with the Lionel & MTH Dreyfuss. A lot of people are upset with the color of the engine for the Lionel version. I’ve read on this forum where people complained Lionel got the colors all wrong and this and that. I’ve read that the Lionel artwork in the catalog was misleading for this engine in showing the color. I can see a difference in color from the catalog to the actual product (see attached photos). But, I can also see a difference in the MTH catalog photo verses the MTH actual product (also see attached photos).  

As long as the passenger cars offered match the engine paint, what’s the difference? Almost all of us weren’t even alive to remember the exact color of the prototype in 1938….

These models were also announced and released at the relatively same time, so I think the BTO pre order system forced some folks into a decision for one over the other. But patience prevails….

I would be happy to have the Lionel Dreyfuss and matching cars, especially now that I can get them at a better price!  I like the legacy controller better than DCS-I have big hands and the legacy remote fits better plus I like the easy quilling whistle control. But that’s my opinion and you know what they say about opinions…..

@irish rifle posted:

This premise of this topic is inaccurate, a classic some/all fallacy, as clearly "everyone" is not selling their new Lionel engines. That said, to the extent that some folks are selling new Lionel engines, which is also clearly the case as reported by a number of Forum members, I have to believe that the economy is a factor.

Pat

Hi Pat,

I changed the title of this thread to say “some folks” instead of everyone.  

I do not understand people buying NIB engines for prices close to or more then what you can buy them for from a dealer with a warranty. The new LEGACY engines seem to have a lot of problems.

I have purchased 6 new LEGACY engines (American Flyer) and five had board failures and went back to Lionel for repairs. The quality of  these engines is very poor.

Gunny

Alex you sound like my wife. It's just a toy It's just a toy. You paid how much for a toy. Well to me they can be a piece of art on the shelf or running down the rail. There a fine piece of detailed machinery!

@endless tracks posted:

Mikado, you nailed it! Very underwhelming.

I bought a pair of RS-11s in 2022 and one trip around the track and I knew they would be on the auction block. They were shelf queens for a bout. year before I got around to selling. The cheesy sounding "rail sounds" were nothing more than Wife Wakers. Super obnoxious. If I turned the volume down to the point that they were tolerable, you couldn't hear the engine. The color was too bright (yellow) and they didn't smoke to my liking. Cost me a couple hundred to get rid of them, but oh well.....

I guess it didn't help that I received mine just after getting the new Strasburg Decapod, after having just ridden behind the real 90 during the holiday season before she went to the shops for her 1472.

Say what you want about it, but Lionel really went all in for the sounds on that locomotive, and unique sounds are now a big factor in the new locomotives I buy. Comparing the Dreyfuss' sounds with 90's felt like such a letdown, and I don't say that often about LEGACY locomotives.

Maybe I'm just extremely picky about my NYC sounds compared to most people (and this goes for MTH sounds as well), but I still didn't feel particularly satisfied.

My two cents:

Many of today's locomotives are re-issues of older models.

But they are now VERY expensive.

And for that increased cost, the buyer now gets:   seemingly increased board failures, lack of local dealer support/repair centers, a guaranteed part shortage down the road......and the likely realization that the new model in question will, indeed, be released again down the road.

When you have 400-800 bucks tied up in a locomotive, you tend not to care about the Opportunity Cost of the model.

But when you have 1,500-3,000 dollars into a model.....and you have many models....it doesn't take much to realize that these are likely a very poor financial decision.

So, if you don't LOVE a model,  many think you're better off selling it NOW.

p.s. - there's also the train of thought to sell a locomotive BEFORE the warranty period expires.