Why no more 611 trips this year?

Building demand?

Maybe because the passenger train set must soon have to be moved to Ft Wayne, IN for operations later in the month with NKP 765.

No additional excursions are scheduled for No. 611 in 2015, and plans call for the engine to be drained and moved to its home at the Virginia Museum of Transportation.

That's kind of sad that a newly restored historic locomotive is raring to go but there are no passenger train sets available for it to pull. 

Well, there IS a passenger train set, however Norfolk Southern Corp. has other steam operations on other parts of their system. Thus, #611 is finished with HER portion of the NS steam trips, and now it is NKP 765's turn.

Passenger cars, like steam locomotives cost $$$$ to own, operate, insure and maintain.

Rusty

The crew on Saturday was extremely non-committal regarding any further excursions. Guess we'll have to wait to see what comes out in 2016. Bev Fitzpatrick did mention that VMT has purchase three cars of their own. We'll just have to see what comes of that.

"gotta leave'm wanting more" still, a lot of people have wanted 611's return for a long time, shame to see her parked so early in the year.

Although not vintage equipment I would not mind if the 611 pulled a train made up of rented Amtrak cars. The vintage cars now being used are Amtrak compliant and do not operate as they once did - HEP, retention toilets, and the like.

After NS discontinued their steam program before, the Susquehanna RR had several of their coaches, still painted in NS colors.  Shortly after I moved from New York, the owner died.  Does anyone know what happened to those cars?  He had two beautiful E9 diesels that were painted to match, too, along with many other historic pieces. 

This would be a good time to do the pilot truck wheel work....and anything else that needs tweeked.

THIS.

Well they could double head 611 & 765 and almost everyone would be happy.

Another thing to consider - if I'm not mistaken, I believe most/many of the 611 crew are volunteers just like the 765 guys. These folks have families, jobs, and other "real world" responsibilities that they need to tend to. They can't always be traveling with the engine. 

Not only will it give them a rest but it will also give the museum visitors a chance to see it. It'll be running again soon....really enjoyed seeing it in Manassas about a month ago. 

From the beginning the operating plan for the 2015 Norfolk Southern 21st Century Steam Program had the 611 running only a few trips this year.

There is only a single train set assembled and available for these trips. This train must be shared among three different groups. The train that ran behind the 611 is now on its way to Fort Wayne. It will run behind the 765 during July, August and on through mid-September. Then the train set goes south to the TVRM folks for their fall trips.

That was the plan which we (NS, Fort Wayne, TVRM and the 611 organization) laid out back in January, so this is nothing new.

Very true indeed.

I acctually didn't think there would be more trips considering these were all her first trais since 94. So as to what Matt A said, in my opinion, I think the 765 & 611 are 2 different ballparks. Sure 611 and 765 would look great together, but they are 2 different railroads and era's. So in my opinion, I don't think the 765 and 611 should be double headed. I know it would be cool, but the more we ask, it probably won't happen for a little while. Also as to what jaygee said for tweaking, I think the whistle should be changed on the 611. I do like the sound of it though, but it's not the original 611 Whistle. And as to what Rich mentions, does this mean the Passenger Set will be put on the NS OCS Train 955 or on another?

I thought the whistle sounded different. What happened to the original?

Indeed she did/does sound different because she is carrying a UP whistle, I believe off a 4000 which is a Hancock (Manning, Maxwell & Moore, Inc).  The whistle she carried during her first excursion career (82'-94') was an original Hancock longbell 3 chime off of a "J" which was owned by Robert Claytor, and after his passing it went to his son Preston Claytor, formerly of the Fireup611 group.  Mr. Claytor left the group back in May because of some disagreements with the group, when he departed so did the "family whistle" unfortunately.  The UP whistle she carry's now is owned by Fireup611 member/fireman Cheri George. 

Another thing to remember here is that this is not the same program as before.  Back in the 80's and 90's the 611 was running almost constantly with excursions and ferry moves and we all were spoiled.  I am a HUGE N&W fan and HUGE fan of the 611, but this is now, not then.  The current steam program is made up of a nice variety of steam between the 765,611,4501 & the 630 and they all are unique and fine examples of main line steam and I for one am excited to now see the 765 stretch her legs.  The 611 will get some time off, and most likely some engine truck work and whatever else is on their punch list.  Lets be grateful to have the 611 back...remember she could still be sitting at the VMT cold.  And lets now look forward to a fine series of trips with the 765 and buy tickets or donate what we can to the FWRHS to help support a fine Berk for the future generations. 

Running these trips has to be a stress and headache to the NS operations folks who are trying to move the freight across the road on time and make the company some money.

While it might be fun at first and a support few runs of these trains, after a while no doubt, it starts to impact work, operations, maintenance, even home and family.   Stories abound that the first excursion era was partly killed from the operations side of the house (anyone else remember the hi-rail trucks that ran a few minutes in front of the steam trains in the 1990's?)

Now a new division gets to have fun with steam and the others can get back to the normal pains of running a railroad!

Bob

I truly don't get the whole whistle thing. Everyone makes such a big deal about the 'musical chairs' whistle thing on locomotives now, but making a whistle isn't really that big a deal if you have the machine shop to make one. I knew a guy who in the 80s took a documented whistle off a NYC Hudson owned by a collector friend of his and made an exact copy using the same types of parts. It was never hooked up to any locomotive at that point (I lost track of both of them years ago) but there was no reason to believe it wouldn't have sounded the same, by the design, anyway.

With CNC especially, it wouldn't be any big deal to make any pattern you wanted, provided you had the right specs.

Sheesh, it's not like they're made out of unobtanium or something.

I am assuming you have a lot of experience with the machining processes, and foundry processes (including exactly what type of brass is used for the castings) involved in producing those 3-chime, deep tone steam whistles. Not to mention whether the steam supply is superheated steam or saturated steam off the turret. Believe me, it ain't as easy as you think.

So basically, people who donated to contrubute to restoring 611 only payed for the amount of trips this year? I really think I t will do a lot of Excursions next year.

People contributed to get the engine operational and it is! I think it was always very clear it would see limited use. It aint like its back in service full time or anything like that. You can make plans in the future to see it run! Couldnt do that 2 years ago.

A little perspective can be a wonderful thing--611 is up and running again. I wish I could say the same thing about Frisco 1522,or 1218.

And more than a few NYC Hudson fans would love to have a J3a back in steam...

Jeff C

Volunteers aboard the 611 fan trip on Saturday heavily stressed the point about contacting the new president of the Norfolk Southern about keeping the 611 running in the future.Besides all the time and money that went into getting the engine back in service,the engine will not run without the involvement of the NS.Letting the new president know how much interest and enthusiasm there is in keeping the 611 running in the future is badly needed.I was told the best way to do this is to send a letter by USPS to the president of NS,Jim Squires,stating how much I want to see the engine run in the future.Any other fans of the 611 should do the same.I will post his mailing address once I get it.

Dan

....And all those Central fans would never be able to decide which version to reproduce ! A serious problem, unless you can find the Hudson hiding in a barn in Michigan !

You are not seeing the big picture here.

The people who donated to the Fire Up 611 campaign did so to breathe new life into the 611. That new life will last for many, many years. If the new CEO at NS wants to keep the steam program alive, 611 will run many more trips in future years.

There is life beyond 2015...

When I started this thread it was to get answers about the 611 future trips and  not to stir up the pot. Had no idea mainline approved excursion cars are so rare - almost as rare as working steam locomotives. By all means support the already scheduled steam excursions. Its concerns me that NS has a new president who by implication may not be supportive of future 611 trips. CEO's  compensation to a big part are based on stock options which depend on future EPS which helps determine market value of a share of stock. So with the coal RRs revenue down this year( NS and CSX) the plan may be to cost expense to the bone. I will write the president of NS as soon as the address is posted on the site. 

I've said it before and I say it again: All it takes is a change in management.

Now whether the new CEO of NS (and I didn't know there was one) allows 611 or any other steam locomotive to operate on NS rails in the future remains to be seen.  It's his railroad, after all.

But a railroad is ultimately responsible to it's customers and stockholders first, railfans are pretty far down the list.  BNSF, CP, CN, CSX, FEC, KCS, would not have any more business with steam locomotives running around on their rails.  Even UP is doing OK with their steam program out for repair.

Rusty

Here is the NS CEO mailing address:

James A. Squires

Norfolk Southern Railroad

Three Commercial Place

Norfolk, Virginia

23510

There are certain things that people have to understand when it comes to a steam program. 

1. The plans for the trips are planned out at least a year in advance and once a schedule is set they stick to it. The only exception this year was when a second Bull's Gap trip was added for the 4501 because of the tickets for that trip sound out quickly. 

2. NS only has one set of passenger cars that are used for the steam trips. Some of those cars are used for other things as well (i.e. Business trains, Operation Lifesaver Specials, etc.) 

So with that being said, they have to move around from one engine to the next once the time for their trips comes. 

3. PRIVATE CARS: The groups that own the locomotives don't always own their own cars.
Rich, correct me if I'm wrong, but FWRHS doesn't have any passenger cars except for the tool car, is this correct? (Don't know for sure) 
TVRM has a small collection of cars which are mainline certified, but only a hand full. 
906

907

3158

899

6604

857

and a few others that I can't remember at this time. 
Everything else has to come from private owners, and those cars are subject to availability and cost to lease them from their owners. 

4. And this is the most important. 
THE STEAM SPECIALS ARE NOT WHAT BRINGS HOME THE BACON FOR NORFOLK SOUTHERN!!!

NS has their own freight trains to run that is making the money so that, maybe, they can donate money to these steam groups and, maybe, keep the program going. 
Also, it is ultimately the final choice of Mr. Squires if the program keeps going. 
Wick is not calling all the shots anymore and we must except that. 
And this IS Norfolk Southern's railroad. So what NS says goes. 

Rant over...

CORRECT.

At one time we owned about 12 passenger cars. However, we soon realized that we could be in the steam locomotive business or the passenger car business, but not both. We sold all of our passenger cars to various organizations and only operate the NKP 765 tool car for now.

We have a passenger car that we intend to make into a handicap accessible car for use on future excursion, but we're a long way from having that one ready to go.

All this concern over the NS 21st Century Steam Program is premature. Let's get the 2015 season out of the way and then worry about whether the program will continue in 2016. In the meantime, all the steam crews involved in the program will be doing everything they can to make the excursions run as smoothly as possible, with the least amount of disruption to the freight business that pays the bills.

Mr. Squires is not a new-comer to NS. In my experience. CEOs are very politically astute. Given the success of the 21st Century Steam program, I wouldn't bet that any changes are high on his priority list. Just my $0.02.  

I'm quite upbeat about NS's support for steam excursions on the railroad for now and in the years ahead.  I just hope the public acts responsibly riding and viewing the excursion trains.  Based on past performance with the 21st Century steam program, their heritage diesels, and their TV advertising it is clear the NS management team understands and values good public relations. I'd like to see NS create a new TV ad featuring a 611 excursion run by followed by modern NS diesels on the point of a time freight.  The theme would be Thoroughbred then, Thoroughbred now - it's in our DNA.

Ed Rappe