Will steam engines become irrelevant to future generations?

Will they become irrelevant? Well it's hard to explain... As long as there are things like Thomas the Tank Engine then yes. Kids liking Thomas generates interest in real trains like Strasburg which of course generated people like me. So I'd say it's beyond even my lifetime before kids start not knowing what a steam locomotive is.

Perish the thought!

I am 38 & I have never seen an operating steam locomotive & because I have only been in the US for the last 15 years, I have no appreciation for or interest in steam locomotives & other historically significant but obsolete train models like the California Zephyr or the EMD F-units. In the past I also used to get annoyed with model train importers who focus a lot on older generation models over modern equipment. But now I have chosen to enjoy the somewhat limited models of modern equipment available & vote with my wallet.

These are just my opinion,

Thanks,

Naveen Rajan

I believe there will always be part of our culture that is interested in the past. Look at how many are interested in The Civil War,WWl&ll. Old cars, the Old West. And nothing gets someone charged up more than seeing that WWll aircraft fly over, or that steam locomotive go by.

And don't forget the Polar Express. But the truth be said the further you get away from something, out of sight out of mind. With no real exposure to Steam Engines and what kids see in real life on Railroads it may just be an all Diesel hobby down the road. We are the ones that expose them to Steam Engines and hopefully that will make some of them want to have them.........Paul.

Steam locomotives will more or less live on in one form or another. Think of all the locomotive's already in restoration. B&M 3713, C&O 1309, RDG 2100

In my opinion,,,,,,YES!  In fact, steam locomotives are already "irrelevant" to the CURRENT generation, since they have generally not seen a real live one in operation, and most likely neither have their father & mothers.

While there's many folk that will come out to see a steam locomotive, it's probably more because it's something different.   For most non-railfan type folks the steam locomotive is a curiosity or an excuse to get out of the house.  Then they go home.

However,  a steam locomotive may still stir the soul of a select few, as do all things historical.  It's what helps to create historians and archeologists.

Rusty

I can say I believe steam will always have its charm. I'm 34, too young to remember steam locomotives running the rails, but I was always drawn to steam. As a child my first train set was a diesel HO set and while I never showed it, I was hugely disappointed opening that up Christmas morning because I was hoping for steam!!!

I got a big surprise yesterday morning by my 6 year old nephew. I am giving him and his cousin some postwar sets for Christmas this year after I do some light resto work to them. He doesn't know it yet but it's kinda funny what I did. I got his set down to make a test run, a 2018 with a mish mash of cars, I hadn't tested it yet because I don't have a new layout built, so I gave it a light coat of oil and ran it around a circle of track and let him run it. I also recently bought a set of 2343s for myself (I've always wanted a set!) and got them down to run them. He really liked the F3s when I found out the horn worked (I was under the impression it didn't, the man who sold them to me threw in a little extra, thanks again Ray Sorenson!!)  so it drew his attention away from the steamer. That is until I got down a whistle tender and put it behind the 2018!!! He loved the fact it smoked, whistled, and had those awesome drivers chugging along. So guess who's going to have to dig up a couple whistle tenders and rethink what transformers to use for the sets?

Never! As long as there is history, steam power is/will be acknowledged.   It's a phenomena of the continued use of the basic science of physics. 

My two cents:

You'll always have those that are interested in toy trains, whether they be diesel, steam or whatever.  And, then some folks find great enjoyment in "X" and are contented to stick with that.  Then you have that stratum of the population that is myopic and has little interest in anything outside what they see firsthand, so they will have little interest steam locomotives (or the surrounding Industrial Age history from which arose such engineering marvels).  Finally, you'll have folks that are interested in learning, or that saw the Polar Express film (or other films with steamers), or are mechanically inclined and/or enjoy things with visible moving parts, etc.  I tend to think the O Scale hobby segment has a preponderance of the folks that are interested in expanding their horizons and that are mechanically inclined.

Peter

The larger question is whether railroads will seem irrelevant to later generations. A large portion of the American population never rides on passenger trains. Many folks view freight trains only as a nuisance that delays them at grade crossings. The nationwide plague of unsightly graffiti on railroad freight cars degrades the public image of modern railroads.

If American Railroads can do a better job of improving their image in the public eye, the steam locomotive can retain its place as part of the American railroad heritage. An improved public image would also keep more people interested in the hobby of model railroading.

dgauss posted:

Never! As long as there is history, steam power is/will be acknowledged.   It's a phenomena of the continued use of the basic science of physics. 

I don't see many physics classes going on around steam locomotives... 

Rusty

When the apocalypse/geomagnetic storm/electro-magnetic pulse happens and fries our electronics , there will be a stampede back to the archaic knowledge of steam engine fans and engineers. Fear not, diesel-eers, your knowledge will also be needed. 

Places like Strasburg will actually become strategic repositories of knowledge for all those doodling on their dead iPads with chalk.

Paper magazines and slide-rules will also see a stupendous come-back.

Hot Water posted:

In my opinion,,,,,,YES!  In fact, steam locomotives are already "irrelevant" to the CURRENT generation, since they have generally not seen a real live one in operation, and most likely neither have their father & mothers.

Ditto !

Ron H

Define "irrelevant" in terms of what you mean relative to steam engines? It may or may not be irrelevant in terms of a detailed understanding or appreciation for the  technical aspects and specifications and physics of how a steam engine operates, or the history of their development and operation.   But many people who drive cars can't explain how an ICE operates either.  Will future generations recognize and know what a steam locomotive is? I have no doubt they will.  We still know what a horse and buggy or a catapult is.  Reminds me of walking in older parts of Boston and asking my kids if they knew what the this item is and what it is used for...they know what a horse is but they didn't really comprehend or appreciate that horses once were everywhere and left stuff everywhere.

"boot scraper" 

Rusty Traque posted:

dgauss posted:

Never! As long as there is history, steam power is/will be acknowledged.   It's a phenomena of the continued use of the basic science of physics. 

I don't see many physics classes going on around steam locomotives... 

Rusty

It's not just Physics. The curriculum and teaching methods these days is nothing short of pathetic. How does force = mass * acceleration make you "feel". Give me a break. At some point, children must learn classic principles, or we stand to lose the sum knowledge of the last 1000 years.

This past summer I had to explain to an intern (VCU Summa Cum Laude Engineering candidate) that the words "There", "Their" and "They're" each have a different, and distinctive meaning. Ask them about a Carnot Cycle and eyes roll into the back of their heads.

There is hope. When my 2 year old granddaughter sees one of my N&W model steamers it's always CHOO-CHOO, G-Pa, CHOO_CHOO !!! She loves them. As for diesels, she is already ho-hum. That, my friends comes from good genes. Can't teach that behavior...

Worst mistake I ever made as a parent was allowing my older son to have a Nintendo. My younger son could care less.

I love steam and grew up in the 50's seeing the End of steam. Although I really like my model steam locomotives I also like modern diesels like the ES44, SD70ACe's, etc. 

Yes I can see in the future where steam is no longer cared about by the masses but I think there will always be modelers who will keep it alive.

bostonpete posted:

...they know what a horse is but they didn't really comprehend or appreciate that horses once were everywhere and left stuff everywhere.

"boot scraper" 

And today are reduced to using a stick to perform the same task, or worse yet end up tracking it through the house. Don't know about the rest of you guys, but I still have one of these right beside my front steps.

There are always history buffs. Those who like to study history and learn from it. Yes, steam locomotives have gone the way of antiques but people collect antiques. People still build trebuchets and build and fly bi-winged WWI aircraft. Railroads helped build this country and the history of the railroad will always have it's followers. Steam engines are an important part of that history.

No.  I am a Toy Train Layout, and visitors to my "Train Room / Man Cave" Enjoy the action that they can watch and operate with a steam engine.  The Lionel Challenger & Hudson are a favorite. 

In recent years, I have seen a frightening amount of younger train buffs who have zero interest not only in steam, but anything from the past, RR-related. They're only about the newest stuff and nothing else.

I had never seen this among the train buff community until a few years ago.

If that continues, there won't be nearly the interest in steam that there is/was, when so many train buffs recall daily mainline steam or talked with people who did.

p51 posted:

In recent years, I have seen a frightening amount of younger train buffs who have zero interest not only in steam, but anything from the past, RR-related. They're only about the newest stuff and nothing else.

I had never seen this among the train buff community until a few years ago.

If that continues, there won't be nearly the interest in steam that there is/was, when so many train buffs recall daily mainline steam or talked with people who did.

Which brings up EXACTLY why the National Railway Historical Society is struggling big time. The "younger generation", is not generally interested in attending NRHS meetings and interacting with other people and viewing RR slide shows. The "younger generation" do pretty much ALL the social interaction via social media, i.e. on a computer/smart phone. Generally railroad museums and historical societies are having increasing difficulty in attracting sufficient "hands on" volunteers. Wonder why, what with all the current "instant gratification"?

Firewood posted:

When the apocalypse/geomagnetic storm/electro-magnetic pulse happens and fries our electronics , there will be a stampede back to the archaic knowledge of steam engine fans and engineers. Fear not, diesel-eers, your knowledge will also be needed. 

Places like Strasburg will actually become strategic repositories of knowledge for all those doodling on their dead iPads with chalk.

Paper magazines and slide-rules will also see a stupendous come-back.

 

You beat me to it!
I think some steam operations must be subsidized by the gov't.. or at least should be ;-)

Hot Water posted:

p51 posted:

In recent years, I have seen a frightening amount of younger train buffs who have zero interest not only in steam, but anything from the past, RR-related. They're only about the newest stuff and nothing else.

I had never seen this among the train buff community until a few years ago.

If that continues, there won't be nearly the interest in steam that there is/was, when so many train buffs recall daily mainline steam or talked with people who did.

Which brings up EXACTLY why the National Railway Historical Society is struggling big time. The "younger generation", is not generally interested in attending NRHS meetings and interacting with other people and viewing RR slide shows. The "younger generation" do pretty much ALL the social interaction via social media, i.e. on a computer/smart phone. Generally railroad museums and historical societies are having increasing difficulty in attracting sufficient "hands on" volunteers. Wonder why, what with all the current "instant gratification"?

I for one think your wrong. I'm part of the younger generation. I'm part of the Raritan River Chapter of the NRHS. I enjoy viewing RRRR slideshows, but I'd rather find film of the RRRR. It's wrong to say that all people of the younger generation aren't interested in NRHS meetings. I usually attend meetings and we have a very important meeting tonight as a matter of fact. I have many friends who are the same way. In a sense the way people enjoy trains as a whole is drastically changing. I think we can accept the new ways while incorporating the old ones.

Railroads are well on their way to becoming a thing of the past, perhaps.  The infrastructure they represent will become unnecessary and expensive, except perhaps in urban areas and heavily populated areas like Western Europe.  People will prefer transportation in their own vehicle which they will call with an app on their smart device .   Robotic, self-driving trucks, cars and perhaps even locomotives will render these older transport methods purely functional within the lives of many of the younger generation. 

People used to get excited about saddles, wagons and riding crops.  Now it's a fringe hobby.  The same thing almost certainly will happen to motor vehicles and trains in due course.  They will be transportation, pure and simple, with no romance or personal aesthetics attached to them.  Probably within the next few decades.  I hope to be able to read the NY Times during my commute to work some day soon!

Saddles notwithstanding, I would tend to agree with the idea of steam locos becoming irrelevant - except, actually, they should have already become irrelevant to most hobbyists - but they are not. The excursion locos help, and certainly so does the presence of many older model RR's - but, again, many an "old" person today (I am one, at 68) was perhaps born after steam or at the tail end of its presence in daily life.

But, here we are, in 2016, looking at valve gear, learning wheel arrangement names and why some roads preferred certain FWH types.

I'm old, but never saw (OK, once, on a trip, when I was 5 or so) working steam. I grew up in the South, which dieselized earlier,in general, than the rest of the country. Of the 5 railroads serving Mobile, one was dieselized before I was born (1948), and all were by 1950, except one, and that one did in 1954 or so in our area. I was 6. We didn't live near the tracks, so I never saw their steamers.

So even us old guys who never saw steam like it; I run very few diesels. The diesels interest me, the steam fascinates me. It - in models - will probably continue for quite some time.

D500 - very well put. The only steam engines I "saw" growing up were Thomas, the polar express and the occasional visit to disney world and that was enough to draw me into the hobby. You're quote "diesels interest me, the steam fascinates me" is right on for me.

RaritanRiverRailroadFan4 posted:

Hot Water posted:

Which brings up EXACTLY why the National Railway Historical Society is struggling big time. The "younger generation", is not generally interested in attending NRHS meetings and interacting with other people and viewing RR slide shows. The "younger generation" do pretty much ALL the social interaction via social media, i.e. on a computer/smart phone. Generally railroad museums and historical societies are having increasing difficulty in attracting sufficient "hands on" volunteers. Wonder why, what with all the current "instant gratification"?

I for one think your wrong. I'm part of the younger generation. I'm part of the Raritan River Chapter of the NRHS. I enjoy viewing RRRR slideshows, but I'd rather find film of the RRRR. It's wrong to say that all people of the younger generation aren't interested in NRHS meetings. I usually attend meetings and we have a very important meeting tonight as a matter of fact. I have many friends who are the same way. In a sense the way people enjoy trains as a whole is drastically changing. I think we can accept the new ways while incorporating the old ones.

Nobody is saying ALL young people are doing (or not doing) any specific thing. I am, however, seeing a lot of train buffs in the 40s and younger who have zero interest in anything but the newest RR stuff.

Groups like the NRHS are, indeed, going the way of Moose and Shriner lodges. It's a big shift from social organizations which used to be big things in previous generations, maybe more so that the topic for the NRHS's existence. I recently read someone from the Masons was worried there wouldn't be any masons in 30-40 years once the current ones die off as hardly anyone is joining groups like that, whereas in the past, it was an almost automatic thing that a son of a Moose/Shriner/Mason would join his Dad's lodge and that just isn't happening anymore.

Just go to any NMRA meeting. They did a good job with attracting folks and doing events to keep them interested (far more so than the NRHS does), but the average age of most meetings is well past 60. There are younger members, no doubt, but not very many of them and not a lot showing up at the weekly meeting at the local library.

Don't worry gang, all is not lost: here's a project that involved young people, with a technology that pre-dates steam locomotives by a long chalk. http://hollandtour.org/voc-merchant-ship-batavia.html

Let's not forget about groups like Tri State Railroad HS or the United Railway Historical Society. There are many preservation societies out there. One thing about steam engines is that they are irrelevant in certain parts of the country. It all depends on your viewpoint. If you live around the Strasburg Railroad, then steam isn't irrelevant to that person. But let's face it, most of those people are Amish and they live life in a more simpler time. I guess steam railroading fits their time period.

Once the baby boomer generation starts to die off, I would imagine any sort of practical relevance, especially in the context of associating it with real life experience, would die off along this them. That's not to say that the concept or idea of steam locomotives will demise, but rather will become a romanticized symbol of a by gone era, probably relegated to certain societal niches (think the steampunk movement).

Well, who can say? Steam engines, sailing ships, etc. do have a certain charm that the efficient but rather sterile TGV does not.

If you had told me ten years ago that there would be bins of new vinyl records in Barnes and Noble, I would have been pretty skeptical (but hopeful!).

Bob

Hi Guys, interesting subject. I live in Scotland, I'm almost 63 ,we still had mainline workaday steam here up till around 1967 and small industrial steamers lasted at some coal mines up till the last fire was dropped in 1981.  Steam generally lasted a lot longer in the UK and Europe than in the states. I notice the time-difference in attitudes between American and European train buffs. Like..,  I notice many American layouts where steam locos don't feature at all. I notice American enthusiasts of my age enthusing about F7s and Geeps and various other diesel locos , where over here the same age group enthuse about steam types. I suppose its just down to what we experienced as kids.  I think a lot of rail-enthusiasm in general is based on childhood nostalgia. Time was when I wouldn't even give a diesel loco a sideward glance,to me they were just totally  boring boxes on wheels.  Since my childhood the UK rail-scene has changed beyond all recognition, there has also been mass de-industrialisation , as a kid  a short suburban train trip from my hometown of Hamilton into Glasgow,I would observe steam locomotives galore,working lines of freight wagons and passenger coaches in umpteen railyards and industrial sidings,steelworks etc., along the way, I'd also pass by Polmadie locomotive terminal where steam was abundant with all the infrastructure that went with it. These days just about everything from that era is gone. No freight trains pass thru my town anymore,all the steelworks and other rail served industries are long gone and all the sidings and infrastructure gone too , so its no wonder that many kids today have no relationship with the past I and my generation knew. Preserved steam still fascinates though,and when kids do get a chance to see it they still re-act pretty much with the same fascination as kids of my generation. Personally over the years I have developed less of an indifference towards diesels and electrics and have taken a more universal interest in railways. Whether kids will maintain an interest in steam when the steam generations are finally gone ,who knows..., whatever ,it won't be a disaster for me because I'll be gone too.... nothings forever . I suppose we are all animals of our time. 

Have to say Davy, I envy you. The UK steam rail scene went on into the 1960's. That is something that shows the UK steamers were able to hold their own against BR diesels. Just goes to show why the UK has the most steam preservation in the world. As I can recall, Flying Scotsman was recently put back into service..

D500 posted:

Saddles notwithstanding, I would tend to agree with the idea of steam locos becoming irrelevant - except, actually, they should have already become irrelevant to most hobbyists - but they are not. The excursion locos help, and certainly so does the presence of many older model RR's - but, again, many an "old" person today (I am one, at 68) was perhaps born after steam or at the tail end of its presence in daily life.

But, here we are, in 2016, looking at valve gear, learning wheel arrangement names and why some roads preferred certain FWH types.

 

Perfectly said - being in my 40s, I've never seen a steam engine in revenue service (and only a handful operate at all) and that is I think true of most people alive now.  Steam engines are much more interesting to see run with all of their complications and practical engineering brilliance.  If someone is drawn to trains at all, they'll likely be interested to some degree (and perhaps to a large degree) in steam engines. 

Our world just offers many, many more potential activities and interests than have ever existed before.  It's hard for any area to "dominate" the minds and hearts of people anymore like was possible 50 years ago.  And the Internet makes it feasible to connect with others on these increasingly niche interests.   I for one think this is actually a good thing.  Ask yourself: how many of us think the hobby would be in a better position today without the Internet's ability for us to connect so easily to allow us to purchase, maintain, and share our hobby?

RaritanRiverRailroadFan4 posted:

Have to say Davy, I envy you. The UK steam rail scene went on into the 1960's. That is something that shows the UK steamers were able to hold their own against BR diesels.

Much more to do with the blunt fact that the BR diesels were/are JUNK! The British Rail system didn't have any diesel units with outstanding reliability, until Mr. John Yeoman began purchasing diesel ELECTRIC units from EMD.  Those Foster Yeoman "rock haulers" maintained 100% availability, 6 days a week, for more than 3 consecutive years! 

Just goes to show why the UK has the most steam preservation in the world.

In fact the biggest, and most important reasons are 1) they have MANY wealthy people WILLING to finance & support steam restorations, and 2) their society is NOT based upon constant litigation, as is the case in the U.S.. More and more U.S. railroads are becoming VERY concerned with possible liability lawsuits stemming from ANY passenger excursions on the main lines, thus it has been increasingly more difficult to operate main line passenger excursions on U.S. railroads.

As I can recall, Flying Scotsman was recently put back into service..

Correct. However that return to service took some 20 years and well over a million British Pounds, I understand.

After that magnetic pulse hits only steam will be running!

Yip,many British diesels were complete junk ,absolutely true, however that wasn't true of the Deltics which used marine engines and were the most powerfull single diesel units in the world when introduced onto the London-Edinburgh run in the 60s...am I right in saying rated at 3,500 HP? ,and I believe the HST trains have given sterling service since their introduction in the 70s to this day. However am no expert on diesels.....  most UK diesels are now out of Canadian,London Ontario  workshops .. I think ??. Many good modern steam locos with years of life ahead of them were scrapped out of hand in the 60s. many perfectly good 1950s built machines went to scrap long before their time. The German and French railways took a more sensible approach to eliminating steam. As usual in the UK ...,corrupt politicians with fingers in the transportation pie had a lot to do with the premature killing off of steam and its replacement with untried under-researched and under developed diesel junk., ...eh...financed by the tax payer of course....some things never change....