WILLIAMS BRASS UNION PACIFIC 4-6-6-4 CHALLENGER

Very basic details or lack there of, dependably runner.  Listen to it run b/4 you buy.  Some have a loud gearbox.  The ones with a loud gear box have a low top speed.  2021 estimated value in average condition $350++.

The above is just my opinion.  I had three of them.  My first purchase in 0 scale early 90's.  Big mistake!

There are two of them, one in Williams's Crown Edition (Model 7000, Road No. 3950, c. 1990?), and one in its later Masterpiece Series (Model BS-04, Road No. 3958, c. 1995).

From what I understand 3958 has, at a minimum, additional detail and sound; 3950 does not.  Paint appears to be identical between the two.

Tom's comments, about a loud gearbox vs. perhaps a quieter one, suggest that the gearbox might have been redesigned between the two releases.

I'd go with the Masterpiece Series model, but they are more expensive.  Probably $600, instead of $350 as @Tom Tee mentioned for the earlier Crown Edition.

The earlier Crown Edition model (3950) came in a dark colored box with a large grey stripe and smaller red and white ones:

The later Masterpiece version (3958) came in a silver box with red stripes (which is marked "The Crown Edition Line" on its cover):

Mike

Thanks for the input.  It is a Crown Edition, ad says like new in the box, wheels show maybe just test run war, but think I will pass.  Maybe if it had the 'make offer' option I'd throw one out there.

Williams could be a gamble, MTH more of a sure thing in my experience.

Mine runs well, but is being super detailed. Here are the lead trucks with correct wheels and spacing. Will have to trim the backs of the cylinders to provide enough clearance for 60 inch radius curves. Next I'll close the gap between the pilot assembly and the first truck wheel. All measurements are derived from the real loco's shop drawings.

Interesting day on the "Big E" today.  There are three Williams 3-Rail Brass BS-04 Masterpiece Edition Challengers currently posted, one of with has in it's title the phrase "VERY RARE".

Of the three guess which one has the highest asking price.  For two of them the asking price and/or current bids are reasonable.  For the "VERY RARE" one, not so.

Q1: How can an item be "VERY RARE" when there are three of them up for sale at the same time?

In my opinion something that only comes up once every five years is perhaps "VERY RARE".  Anything less is hype so ridiculous that sales to the seller making the claim should be avoided under all circumstances because of the blatant lie.

Mike

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Q1: How can an item be "VERY RARE" when there are three of them up for sale at the same time?

I hope this is a rhetorical question!   I normally quickly pass by descriptions that emphasize the "rare" quality as they're obviously shooting for a different audience.

Mine is an excellent runner and I've had it for at least 12 years.  Maybe longer?  It is the original Crown edition.  The Seuthe smoke units need replacing, but I only run smoke when I run it outdoors.

Hmmm, I must have the early 2 rail one? Loud as heck! Slow too.

@Engineer-Joe posted:

Hmmm, I must have the early 2 rail one? Loud as heck! Slow too.

My experience with any of the Williams Samhongsa built brass locomotives is that they are simply inconsistent.  I have a total of nine different ones now of which the Challenger is one.  It runs like clockwork and is fairly quiet.  I have some others that wobble a little and are are much louder.  They are kind of like a box of chocolates?   Generally I have had decent success with mine with only a few exceptions.

@GG1 4877 posted:

My experience with any of the Williams Samhongsa built brass locomotives is that they are simply inconsistent.  I have a total of nine different ones now of which the Challenger is one.  It runs like clockwork and is fairly quiet.  I have some others that wobble a little and are are much louder.  They are kind of like a box of chocolates?   Generally I have had decent success with mine with only a few exceptions.

Good observations, I think.

Of my (only 2) Williams examples, one runs great; the other, as you put it, is "much louder" ... even with a replacement motor.  And what's with the very shiny, bright wheels? 😳 Thank goodness for stuff like NeoLube and gun blue...🙂

Having said that, I like the fact that they are made of brass (there's just something about that material 😁). Plus, steam examples from that era seem to still be pretty affordable. 🙂

Mark in Oregon 🎄

Some of the Williams brass came with a 44:1 gearbox, that meant they topped out at around 35 scale MPH, and the motor was screaming by then!  Realistically, 20-25 scale mph was max speed.  That's good for a lot of running, but if you ever think you might want to go faster, it's something to consider.

The first Williams steam locos through the Crown Edition line were indeed inconsistent runners about half had 42:1 gearing which required the motor to turn near 10K just to run 30 smph this high rpm at the motor shaft caused the bearings on the worm shaft to wear very fast which further added to the noise from the gearbox.  Add to that some had the hole in the flywheel drilled off center these were the loudest of all.  Some however had 21:1 gearing and are quiet smooth runners, TILL the bearings on the drive axle get some wear and cause noise and binding at low speeds.  The Masterpiece series locos are indeed rare being only 100 of each were made. Even if two are listed on the E at once they are still rare and run very well.   So the one listed as Very Rare on eBay is indeed rare and a much different loco than the standard Crown Edition Challenger.           j