Williams Northern Pacific 72' Streamliners

I believe they produced these in the late 90's early 2000's.

They are a nice looking set.

Thank you for your help.  It is quite a chore to document Williams years of production and variations.  I have often thought of seeking collaboration with other Williams collectors to pool resources and information to publish a definitive follow-up to Hubbard's early work.  It would be a difficult undertaking, I believe, but well worth it.

Can you post a couple of photos of them for us to see?  Having multiple domes is quite a nice bonus as the new Williams has discontinued them I believe?

My only criticism of the dome cars is that the dome is on the wrong end of the car. I noticed this when I bought a U.P. five car set that has one dome and I saw that the dome didn't line up with the windows on the lower level as they should. I contacted Williams at the time to find out what happened to my car. I was told that there was a mistake in the tooling and it was found too late in the development stage to correct economically, so production continued with the flaw. Perhaps they aren't producing them anymore because of this issue.

I took these pictures with flash (it's going to rain all day), and they do not do the paint scheme justice.  The pictures of the baggage car and observation car are a bit too fuzzy and washed out.  The dark and light green colors in the dome car pictures are more accurate.  Methinks I like the two-tone green.

You are quite correct.  The dome is at the wrong end of the car.  This is especially evident in the second picture.  Another issue is that there are no doors on these cars.  I suppose that passengers would have to board from the observation car and work their way forward to find a seat in one of the three dome cars.

At first, I was not sure whether I wanted to keep these cars or find a new home for them; but then they started to grow on me.  Despite their flaws, they are pleasant to look at.

I am wondering whether Williams made any other Northern Pacific 72' Streamliner sets -- perhaps without the domes -- in later production.  I know they made 60' Aluminum and 72' heavyweight sets.

They look beautiful to me and would be keepers if I had them.  I have the Lionel traditional size set from 1990-91, which I love, but yours are nicer.  What motive power will you use with them?

It might work to find a used Williams NP Alco PA set to match the cars.  Williams doesn't currently make these.  I keep getting into the same bind of having cars without engines or engines without cars.  What would you recommend, given my "tightwad" budget?  I run only conventional, and used at that.

If I get desperate, I will use my Lionel Lines PW 2035 to pull them.  I'm afraid I have nothing else Northern Pacific at this time.  But it sure as heck is a pretty RR.

Well, if "tightwad" is THE operative word, as it was for me, and you can't find the ALCOs I don't think you could do better than to pick up a beatup AA pair of the large plastic Marx E7 diesels to repaint.

The 2035 is certainly a fine loco, and I have used a similar 2026 to pull my cars occasionally.  But I think they really look best with a streamlined diesel at the front.  I sense that you do as well. 

You're right.  The only right solution is a pair of diesels.  I don't care for the Williams F7.  Repainting Marx is not to my liking.  Williams didn't make Northern Pacific in F3 or E7, as far as I know.  That probably leaves the Alco PA in Williams.  Williams did or does make a semi-scale NP Hudson.  But diesels are the best match.

How about flipping the topof the dome around 180?

How about the MTH RK RS-1 in the 2012 Vol 1 catalog? You can run it conventional and they can be had for $260 new.

If I ever get my hands on one of these dome cars, I plan on doing a long and slow complete roof removal to move the dome to the correct side.

Fred

Gordon,

As I recollect regarding the history of this particular car was that it was approved without anyone noticing the flipped dome. By the point it was noticed, the tooling would have to be completely redone and it was opted not to do that.

Personally, I don't understand why it couldn't have been made a separate casting in the first place.  I believe flexible tooling is the best decision.  It just requires more initial investment.

I like this one because it's the only plastic 18" car with a Budd dome.  K-Line's 18" aluminum Budd domes are out there, but they are extremely pricey for something I'm planning to repaint anyway.

Fred

Fred,

I agree with you about using separate castings.  It could have saved them time and money in the long run.

I had a Santa Fe set with three dome cars at one point.  I wonder how many 18" sets Williams made with three dome cars.  I suppose they were all made about the same time.

Edit to add:  MTH made this NP set:  http://www.mthtrains.com/content/20-65114  The picture on the MTH site shows only one dome car, but under "Features" it says: "5-Car Sets Feature: (4) Vista Domes, (1) Sky Top Observation."

We managed to pick up a set of the K-line 21" NCL cars, with the two optional cars.  Pretty nice stuff!  The paint on the Williams seems a little "green" ...

Here are some new pictures.  I made a composite of two of the dome cars, as well as the baggage and the observation car.  I hope the color is more accurate.  I took the pictures without flash, since the cars reflect otherwise.

Regards,

Gordon

There are two sets of K-Line 21" two cars sets on the bay from Trainz that end on Monday evening

http://www.ebay.com/itm/K-Line...D7263358897746124978

I am looking at a Williams Alco PA-1 A-B-A Locos Northern Pacific PRE BACHMAN engine set. Any reason why I should avoid this engine? I don't know a whole lot about Williams, pre Bachman or after Bachman so any one with any info, good or adverse would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance!

If you can get a set of Williams engines, either A-B-A or A-A, pre-Bachmann would be great to go with your passenger cars. Jerry Williams did a better job of getting the engines correct to the railroad.

It seems that Bachmann has some how cheapened the Williams line by adding non-prototypical engines to the roster, like an SD-38 being subbed for an SD-39-2. Bachmann claims they don't have the money to make all the different engine styles so they make a few close as they can get them.

Another problem with WBB(Williams by Bachmann) early diesels is the circuit boards go bad quickly! When Bachmann first took over the Williams line they had a quality issue with Chinese parts.

Lee Fritz

This thread answers some questions that have been running through my mind as to why there are hard to find 72ft. dome cars.

I can not find a Williams (or WbB) 72ft. Santa Fe dome car for my 6 car set (all silver or stainless looking).  I have not been able to find a good SF PA-B unit match for the Alco SF PA AA engines.  It looks like WbB is no longer making any more 72ft. cars either... at least, not that I could find.

I might be able to find some other make but then I'm in for a work out changing trucks to match.  I still like the looks of this set though.  I have an extra observation car, so maybe I could find a donor dome car then cut & fit it to the observation car (sounds like too much work for just a dome).  I'll still be looking for something, so any suggestions would be appreciated.

Dennis

Thanks, Gordon

Dennis

The MTH RK RS-1 is in NP freight colors, and in any case RS-1s never pulled NP North Coast Limited passenger trains. Even if it were fantasy painted in the NP two-tone green Raymond Loewy scheme, it probably wouldn't match the Williams cars, however. 

It's practically guaranteed that no engines are going to match the Williams cars except (maybe) Williams engines. Your Custom Trains cars you mention were made by Samhongsa in Korea for Mike Wolfe just before he changed the name from Custom Trains to MTH trains. Samhongsa kept making the trains for MTH after the Custom Trains name was dropped (this was while production was still in Korea, pre-China; the MTH Samhongsa Korean production stopped years ago). That's probably the reason for the close color match with your MTH FM. (However, more recent MTH production after it moved to China may have changed paints and colors in some cases from the earlier Korean production.) 

As many are aware, color matchs between different manufacturers are rare. They use different paints and color chips, so there's a very high probability that the colors of cars and engines of a given railroad color won't match if they're from different manufacturers. Therefore, in most cases, if you have a set of cars from one manufacturer, they won't match engines from another manufacturer, and vice versa. How much variation a person can tolerate depends upon the individual, of course. 

The Custom Trains passenger cars, such as in my Rio Grande set, were painted by Frank and Jack Rash of Custom Trains (1983 - 1992) in Wilkes-Barre, PA.  The bodies and frames were made in Korea and bear the "Williams" stamp on the bottom of the frame.  Mike Wolfe distributed Custom Trains products, and I have an MTH brochure that announces these cars made by Custom Trains.  Later on, Mike used Samhongsa and this tooling for his own Madison cars.  But Williams had previously used this tooling for early Madison passenger cars.

This Custom Trains set is pictured, along with others, at Robert's Trains site:

http://www.robertstrains.com/Frank53.htm

And here is the link to the catalog sheet:

http://www.robertstrains.com/PassengerCatalog.htm

On the auction site, there is quite a bit of confusion about these sets.  Some say they are Williams, because they bear the Williams stamp.  Others say they are MTH, because they look identical to MTH Madison cars. 

well, I missed out on that Williams NP PA engine deal, but I did snag a Williams pre Bachman Burlington E-7 AA engine combo. I will post pictures as soon as I get them! 

Gordon, you are so right...I was getting ready for work (I work night shift) & UPS truck pulls up...got the box, opened it up & took out the engine. Put it right on my test track...WOW, what a beauty! So awesome I am so glad I got this one! I will takle pic's & post tomorrow, right now I gotta head off to the job!  I would love to participate on creating a price guide for Williams!

a card inside says a sound board can be added to the unpowered dummy....I wonder if they are still available at the price stated!

Gordon, yes the horn works and sounds great!