ferris wheel - ruined but still somewhat useable.

What happens if you connect the two wires going to the TRY ME button (with ON/OFF in the ON position)?   In other words this would be like permanently pressing the TRY ME button.   

Personally, I would not apply voltage to the wires from the "try me" switch.    It could be 2 points on some sort of cheap microprocessor or logic circuit that is not expecting to see the raw 4.5 volts from the power supply.  I'd say the FUBAR probability might be high by doing that.  (whatever the circuit is, it may just be looking for a contact closure for activation)

Do you know for a fact that this unit is intended to be able to continuously operate?  Maybe it was meant to only do one song with motion and then have a break before being activated again.  If you do somehow make it continuously work, if it was for some reason designed to only survive with intermittent operation, you could be shortening it's life, even if it does work the way you want for a  while.

Good luck with your quest.

-Dave

No way would I connect a voltage source across what was built as a momentary switch. Pressing the button completes a circuit on the PC board which necessarily already has a voltage source. There is a good chance you would let all the pretty smoke out and have a pretty brick to look at. 

What happens if you press the button continuously? Does the device then operate continuously or does it still go through just one cycle?

If the accessory was not meant for continuous operation you could use a cycle-timer relay module - less than $5 on eBay.  Set the module to click the relay on for 1 sec every 2 minutes or however long needed to let the accessory "cool down" between triggers.  The relay contacts would go to the TRY ME button.

thanks to all of  you.  very helpful.

Stan2004: that IS my question.

Dave45681: I don't know, the directions only say turn it ON to activate things.

Geysegazer: Kind of what I was thinking.  Somehow the TRYME allows for the voltage from the battery (ON/OFF switch) to kick in.  Your comment about having a pretty brick is my big concern.  Pressing the button a bunch of times does nothing.  Have to press it once, wait for the thing to play, then press again for next song.  Do that 7 times and all of the songs get played.

STAN2004: I'm not familiar with those but that sounds REALLY promising since it accomplishes what I want.  Thanks for pointing me to that idea.  I'll look into what that relay timer is.  Don't have an eBAY account but I'm sure others sell one.

As always, thanks - walt

Sometimes, "try me" buttons have a separate power source, like a flat disk, lithium battery that is meant to only operate the unit occasionally for store display. Connecting power to that button could cause the battery to explode / catch fire.

George

I found a listing for a similar version at Home Depot. Someone had a similar problem. When they pressed "try me" it went around 7 times/songs, then stopped. I could not find any instructions. Check if there is a disk battery on the PC board that can be removed. A lot of times, these decorations are not made for continuous operation, because they are holiday displays and people would get annoyed.

George

Upon reflection, if the ONLY controls on the item are the "master" ON/OFF slide switch and the momentary TRY ME pushbutton, perhaps this item is not meant for continuous operation...end-of-story.  That is, it is battery-operated with (apparently) no external power jack to a wall-wart. 

No matter the outcome to the experiment of continuously holding down TRY ME button, I think you should consider the cycle-timer method simply to make it more realistic.  That is, a real ferris wheel stops to load/unload passengers...then runs for a while...then stops to load/unload...etc.   From your video, it appears 1 cycle/song is about 45 seconds.  So here's a brief video of a cycle timer relay module set to close its relay for 1 second, then wait 90 seconds, and repeat forever.  The idea being it would play 1 song for 45 sec, wait 45 sec, play the next song for 45 sec, wait 45 sec, and so on.  I used a widely available cycle timer relay module - I buy them on eBay for less than $3 (free shipping from Asia), but since you don't do eBay, you can get them on Amazon and elsewhere for a bit more.

This is just an example of the dozens or probably hundreds of different cycle timer relay modules available.  In this example you'd simply apply DC power to the module (the red/black wires on the left), and then connect the 2 relay output wires (shown in green on the right) to the TRY ME switch terminals.  So this would effectively "push" the TRY ME button for 1 sec, wait 90 sec (while the ferris wheel plays 1 song), then push TRY ME again, etc.

There are some minor details to consider since apparently you have 4.5V DC for the ferris wheel whilst this particular timer module requires 6-30V DC.  

GEORGE: yes, the ferris wheel came from Home Depot - to the best of my research it was 10 years ago.  If there's a battery that's one heck of a battery!  But when I opened it up I saw the PC board and where the TRY ME wires connect to it.  There was no visible battery unless it was underneath the board.  If mine went around 7 times and them stopped I'd be satisfied!!!!  Mine only goes around once.  I can get to all 7 by waiting for it to stop and them pressing again, until 7 play.

Stan: yes, I am going to look for one.  I have several wall worts.  I will use the 4.5V one to power the board using the ON/OFF wires that I already snipped.  I can snip the 2 wires coming from the TRY ME to the PC board and connect them to the relay and then use a separate wall wort to power the relay ( I already have relays that require external power but off-hand I don't recall their voltage requirements).

thanks so much guys, I really appreciate the helpful input

as always, thanks - walt

went to amazon where I do have an account.  Found this - looks like what Stan talked about:

the review mentioned that there are not directions. STAN: any tips about how to program it that you can share will be appreciated.  Found some in reviews but wonder if you, who has actually used it for its intended purpose, has comments.

the darn shipping always ticks me off.  it's 50 cents less that the selling price!

thanks - walt

Walt, I think I found your Amazon listing but it is a different item.  It has only 2 black programming mini-buttons whilst mine has 4 mini-buttons.  But I believe it will work for your application.  The following review of your 2-button version seems to have usable programming instructions:

The Amazon listing suggests your module can be powered from a DC voltage range of 10-16V.

Separately, I was thinking how this method might be useful for any layout where the public can activate an accessory (car wash, diner, whatever) via pushbutton.  By wiring the cycle-timer-relay module in parallel with the public activation button, you could have the accessory automatically turn on every 5 minutes (or whatever) in addition to being activated on demand. 

If the accessory doesn't have a momentary activation button and it simply operates when powered, then the module could be programmed to apply power via the relay to the accessory for 2 minutes (or whatever), then turn off for 3 minutes (or whatever) and repeat. 

Note that these relay modules require DC power...so if you want to retrofit into an existing layout that only has Accessory 14-16V AC power, there are AC-to-DC voltage converter modules for $2-3 on eBay (free shipping from Asia).  

If this helps, here's one from Amazon that appears to be just like the one shown in Stan's first picture above. With shipping it might be a bit less too? If it matches the ones Stan has, might be easier for him to help you with? 

I already ordered it.  Wonder if I can cancel - I"ll look into that.

I did think of another, possibly negative, thought about using this device.  I do have the proper DC wall wort to power it, but my concern is that the 10V, or so, used to power it will 'go into' the PC board where the TRY ME wires connect and ruin the board.

Right now, the TRY ME wires have no external source of power so somehow it seems they make a connect thru the PC board that triggers a momentary power on effect. If that's true, then the TRY ME connection at the PC board doesn't need another power source applied to it, right?

Won't my feeding it an extra, external 10Vdc cause problems?

I will look into cancelling and changing my order.

As always, thanks - walt

Well, luckily the item hasn't shipped yet so I put in a request to cancel my order.  Hope it goes thru.  I'm still worried about ruining the board by hitting it with unexpected external power.

Maybe my understanding of what the relay is doing is causing my concern.  Maybe it is NOT passing thru the power that is used to power the device itself.  But if it's not doing that, what is it doing.  How does it simulate pushing the TRY ME button?

As always, thanks - walt

walt rapp posted:

I already ordered it.  Wonder if I can cancel - I"ll look into that.

I did think of another, possibly negative, thought about using this device.  I do have the proper DC wall wort to power it, but my concern is that the 10V, or so, used to power it will 'go into' the PC board where the TRY ME wires connect and ruin the board.

Right now, the TRY ME wires have no external source of power so somehow it seems they make a connect thru the PC board that triggers a momentary power on effect. If that's true, then the TRY ME connection at the PC board doesn't need another power source applied to it, right?

Won't my feeding it an extra, external 10Vdc cause problems?

I will look into cancelling and changing my order.

As always, thanks - walt

Yes, you don't want to put any power into the connections of the TRY ME button.  The TRY ME button is a switch. The relay can perform the same function as the switch. Here is a picture of the back of the relay Stan recommended. 

On the left, you can see the labels for the 3 connectors on the output side of the relay. You would connect one side of the TRY ME button to the Com position (common) and the other side of the TRY ME button to the NO position (normally open). You power the relay on the other side. No power passes through the relay. When the relay activates, Com and NO will be connected together on the output side and it will act as if someone is pressing the TRY ME button. Again, it will not send any power to your Ferris Wheel PC board. You will need to power the Ferris Wheel with the batteries or the adapter you already connected and you will need to have the Ferris Wheel power switch on.  On the input side of the relay, you will need a switch between Trigger and GND_T or you could jumper those together so that whenever the relay is powered, NO will be connected to Com. 

Also, this relay can be powered with a USB connection on top of the relay instead of the DC power inputs.

George

George, can't thank you enough for that super explanation, as MENTAL RELIEF!!!!!  My plan is to snip the wires from the TRY ME that go to the PC board and connect them to the device.  Thanks to your explanation I now see how the device simulates pressing the TRY ME button.  So grateful!!!!!!

Sadly, I don't understand your last caution "On the input side of the relay, you will need a switch between Trigger and GND_T or you could jumper those together so that whenever the relay is powered, NO will be connected to Com. "  can you elaborate on tis a bit more to help me understand what the heck I"m doing?!

As always, thanks - walt

Here is the front of the relay being powered through a USB connection. You will see the 3 connection output on the right side with NO connection on top.

George

I won't be powering anything with a USB input that's for sure.  No sure how your image George relates to my question about your comment.  I'm a dunce!

- walt

walt rapp posted:

George, can't thank you enough for that super explanation, as MENTAL RELIEF!!!!!  My plan is to snip the wires from the TRY ME that go to the PC board and connect them to the device.  Thanks to your explanation I now see how the device simulates pressing the TRY ME button.  So grateful!!!!!!

Sadly, I don't understand your last caution "On the input side of the relay, you will need a switch between Trigger and GND_T or you could jumper those together so that whenever the relay is powered, NO will be connected to Com. "  can you elaborate on tis a bit more to help me understand what the heck I"m doing?!

As always, thanks - walt

Sorry, my last post was just to show a wiring option if you don't have a separate wall wart for the relay. 

Anyway, to answer your question, the four connections on the input side of the relay are what I was referring to. The top two connections are the power input for the relay. They give it power to operate. The top connection is the + side of DC power. The bottom two connections are Trigger and GND_T. These are the connections that operate the relay. They need to be connected, or the relay will not activate; the timer will not start. You can put a switch on them to activate the relay. If you turn that switch on, the relay will start cycling and playing your Ferris Wheel by connecting Com and NO repeatedly after the timed delay you set. If you don't have a switch, you can just connect Trigger and GND_T together with a wire, but you won't be able to stop the Ferris Wheel except to remove power to the relay.

George

BTW, my USB input is a typical phone charger. It's the same as using a wall wart, except you don't need to cut any wires and figure out which one is +. It's not connected to my PC.

George

I don't have a smart phone thus not a phone charger.  Still struggling undertanding your one comment.

walt

Does this help?

George

Walt, I think the module that Geaorge has pictured will do what you need it to. The power for the board's circuitry is provided by the 6-30 vdc input on the left end, or the 5 vdc USB input. 

The relay contacts on the right end are so-called 'dry' contacts, meaning they are unpowered. No power is output from them. You only need to connect your try me wires to the NO and COM connections.

Rod

rtr12 posted:

If this helps, here's one from Amazon that appears to be just like the one shown in Stan's first picture above. With shipping it might be a bit less too? If it matches the ones Stan has, might be easier for him to help you with? 

This item is more than likely coming from Asia - note delivery date is 3-4 weeks out - equivalent to the typical eBay-from-Asia shipping times.

In my earlier post, I showed what appears to be the same module on Amazon, sold by Excelity and fulfilled by Amazon but has a delivery date of later this week...so presumably being shipped from within the USA.  Of course it is $8.99 plus $5.99 shipping (if don't qualify for Amazon "free shipping") so essentially double the out-of-pocket cost.

Walt, if you successfully cancel your order for the other timer module, if you like I can send you the module shown in my video for the $3 I paid on eBay plus USPS First Class package shipping which is maybe $4-5 depending on your distance from Oregon.  I can even pre-program it to the timing parameters you want (e.g., 1 sec ON, 3 minutes OFF, 1 sec ON, 3 minutes OFF, repeating forever).  Using the 4-buttons to program the module can be a challenge!

But I see there's been a flurry of posts this morning, so let's confirm this module indeed does what you want!  I'll respond separately to today's activity. Do the right thing before doing things right!

Walt; pretty hard to beat Stan's generous offer above IMO! 

Stan; I'll take one too!

Rod

Sorry for the confusion earlier, I didn't realize Stan's earlier example was from Amazon, and also obviously failed to check the shipping times, only looked at costs. The one I posted was just the first one in a list of many others.

I also agree that Stan has the best offer yet, sure can't beat that one!

George S posted:

...

On the input side of the relay, you will need a switch between Trigger and GND_T or you could jumper those together so that whenever the relay is powered, NO will be connected to Com. 

The 4-button module has a variety of modes or programs.  One of them, specifically program mode P3.2, forever cycles the relay ON and OFF just by applying suitable DC power on the left.  That is, no connection is required to either of the 2 "trigger" terminals.

In this application, 4 parameters must be programmed using the 4-buttons.   In the video example, PROGRAM = P3.2, OP = 1.0 (sec), CL = 90 (sec), LOP = ---.  The instructions on how to set these are arguably nothing short of cryptic - all the English instructions I've seen are clearly translations and poor ones at that! .  In any case, I recently described this timer module and programming instructions in an OGR thread applying this module as a modern implementation of the Lionel 132 timed-station-stop.

Rod Stewart posted:

Walt; pretty hard to beat Stan's generous offer above IMO! 

Stan; I'll take one too! 

Walt apparently does not do eBay.  

There are several US-based sellers on eBay that beat my price!  Though I'd be astonished if any of them would pre-program the module parameters to your specification. 

stan2004 posted:

George S posted:

...

On the input side of the relay, you will need a switch between Trigger and GND_T or you could jumper those together so that whenever the relay is powered, NO will be connected to Com. 

 

The 4-button module has a variety of modes or programs.  One of them, specifically program mode P3.2, forever cycles the relay ON and OFF just by applying suitable DC power on the left.  That is, no connection is required to either of the 2 "trigger" terminals.

In this application, 4 parameters must be programmed using the 4-buttons.   In the video example, PROGRAM = P3.2, OP = 1.0 (sec), CL = 90 (sec), LOP = ---.  The instructions on how to set these are arguably nothing short of cryptic - all the English instructions I've seen are clearly translations and poor ones at that! .  In any case, I recently described this timer module and programming instructions in an OGR thread applying this module as a modern implementation of the Lionel 132 timed-station-stop.

Wow, that's pretty cool. I didn't know it had that many program modes. I haven't used mine yet, because I ended up using basic relays while my timer ones were on the way from China. I just went back to the eBay seller for mine, and they have a lot more pictures and instructions posted. Still, the instructions are a little confusing. $2.25 each + 1.29 shipping. I am always amazed at how low the shipping costs are from China!

George

Yes, very cool.  If willing to wait a month or whatever for eBay-from-Asia shipping, the cost even seems to be going down.  I've purchased several over time and it seems the cost goes down each time to where it's now less than $3 and still free shipping!  The instructions are indeed confusing.  To wit, the program mode proposed for Walt's application is P3.2.  I wonder if this is obvious from reading the following description 

• P3.2: after connecting. no need to trigger signal, power relay on time OP, CL shutdown time relay; then the operating cycle above timea cycle (LOP) can be set
  

Separately, for anyone wanting an economical, general purpose relay module with timing capability, I'm thinking this 4-button will be my "go-to" module for OGR applications. 

One easily overlooked mode of this module is Program P4.  The description is as clear as mud! 

• P4: keeping the function of the signal; if there is no trigger signal, the time will be canceled, relay stay connected; when the signal disappears, timing OP turn off the relay; over time, if no signal again, the time is cleared

In OGR language, P4 applies to an insulated-rail triggered relay because it has de-chatter and delay.  Once triggered, the relay will close and remain closed as long as the train sits on the insulated rail section.  Additionally, if there is any intermittent wheel contact, the relay will still remain closed for a settable delay during the interruptions.  And if you set the delay long enough (say, 10 seconds), it performs the additional function of what ITAD occupancy detectors do to keep the crossing gates down and flashing even after the train passes the sensor.  Over the years, I've been suggesting adding capacitors or a few discrete components to the $1/relay eBay modules to provide de-chatter and/or delay capability.  But I believe lots of guys don't want to mess with tiny components.

stan2004 posted:

Yes, very cool.  If willing to wait a month or whatever for eBay-from-Asia shipping, the cost even seems to be going down.

They now also come with a new strain of virus at no extra charge.

So this looks like the new re-incarnation of the previous version with 4 buttons: Totally different and better looking digital indicator but otherwise about the same. Still with lousy instructions I bet. About 6 bucks, free shipping, up to 66 days out, and yes maybe additional built in virus!

Rod

thanks to all of you!!

STAN: the first thing that I want to do here is to say 2 things to you:

1. Thank you for providing the instructions which I saw when I logged on Sunday morning,

2. I apologize for forgetting to thank you on Sunday for the instructions.  Rude of me.  I was so excited reading George's comments about NO POWER going thru the relay that I got distracted as it was my BIG concern.

I was not able to cancel my order.  But Stan, thank you for the kind offer had I been able to cancel.

WOW - there's a lot to digest here! All good information.

As always, thanks - walt

Walt, all's good!  The module you ordered should work just fine for your application.  Let us know how it works out.

---

Separately, I am reminded of an OGR thread where a Menards building had multiple lighting modes  (steady on, flashing, etc.).  Apparently, every time you turn on the building, you press a pushbutton some number of times to choose the desired operating mode.  Imagine the inconvenience if indeed the building doesn't remember the mode between sessions!  The 4-button timer module has a mode where rather than cycling forever (as Walt needs), it will cycle exactly 2, 3, 4 (or whatever number) times and then stop.  The linked thread shows this with a more expensive timer module.

Hmm.  Now I'm thinking of Gabe the Lamplighter where IIRC you need to press a momentary pushbutton something like 20 times or so for Gabe to "climb "to the top of the tower to repair the flood lights.   So at less than $3 per timer module, I'd think you pair a few modules to automate Gabe to do his job every 5 minutes or whatever. 

Stan: thanks for you continuing intervention and helpful info.  To be honest, and to prove that I really am a dunce , when reading some of the above posts I couldn't tell if the discussion was about the one that I ordered or yours   Possibly when I actually get to see the one that I ordered I'll be able to sort the posts into "this is stan's" versus "this is mine".

I will definitely report back here after I try it.

as always, thanks to everyone that helped out here - walt

walt rapp posted:

Stan: thanks for you continuing intervention and helpful info.  To be honest, and to prove that I really am a dunce , when reading some of the above posts I couldn't tell if the discussion was about the one that I ordered or yours   Possibly when I actually get to see the one that I ordered I'll be able to sort the posts into "this is stan's" versus "this is mine".

I will definitely report back here after I try it.

as always, thanks to everyone that helped out here - walt

Hi Walt,

A lot of the posts were about Stan's relay. They are similar. Looking at yours, it doesn't look like there is any trigger connection. There is a continuous cycle mode that Stan mentioned and is probably best for your application. It also looks like there is no USB power port on yours. 

When you get it, post here and we can help you program it. I don't know if it comes with instructions or if you need to find them on the Amazon listing.

George

Thanks George.  Stan did provide a set of instructions for this particular device (at least I think it's for mine!).  But if I get lost you can count on me being a pest here again 

The big decision right now is for me to MAKE SURE that I understand the power requirement for the device.  Stan, if I read it correctly, said that the power source must be in the 10vdc to 16vdc range.  I have a wall wart that can do that.  That's a good example of how I was getting confused: one post talked about a 6v-30v range - but I think now that it was for Stan's.

George, I was remiss in not thanking you too for continually intervening and helping.  So.....thank you!

-  walt

walt rapp posted:

Thanks George.  Stan did provide a set of instructions for this particular device (at least I think it's for mine!).  But if I get lost you can count on me being a pest here again 

The big decision right now is for me to MAKE SURE that I understand the power requirement for the device.  Stan, if I read it correctly, said that the power source must be in the 10vdc to 16vdc range.  I have a wall wart that can do that.  That's a good example of how I was getting confused: one post talked about a 6v-30v range - but I think now that it was for Stan's.

George, I was remiss in not thanking you too for continually intervening and helping.  So.....thank you!

-  walt

I can't tell the exact model you bought from what you posted. The 6V - 30V is what Stan's relay takes. I could look up the exact specs for yours if I saw the actual Amazon listing.

George

walt rapp posted:

...

The big decision right now is for me to MAKE SURE that I understand the power requirement for the device.  Stan, if I read it correctly, said that the power source must be in the 10vdc to 16vdc range.  I have a wall wart that can do that.  That's a good example of how I was getting confused: one post talked about a 6v-30v range - but I think now that it was for Stan's.

I've been referring to "my" module as the 4-button version and "your" module as the 2-button version.  Oddly enough I was able to find what I believe was your 2-button version on Amazon right away yesterday with pricing as you described - but today I can't find that exact listing.  But I found this one which I believe is the same 2-button version from a different Amazon seller:

The "Working Voltage" power requirement wording is the same - that's where I got the idea that the 2-button version can be powered by a DC-output wall wart between 10V and 16V.

And, yes, the 4-button version claims a wider "working voltage" range of 6V - 30V DC.