Would this work? Reimagining the 282 Gantry Crane Controller

I think you should be able to do it. Get the wires from the crane, see which is the ground, see which wire goes to the motor right ,the moroe left,  the motor up and down. Then connect the joystick wires for up to the crane up and so forth. Make sure there is a ground in the joy stick.  Just thinking about it - it should work.  try it. good luck. rjs.

It will work for left-right rotate as-is, but for up-down hoist you will need two relays. I would wire the clutch solenoid to the joystick up-down switches, each of which will also energize a relay to run the motor left(down) & right(up).  This is so the clutch is activated first if hoisting so the boom doesn't wander off before the hoisting starts.

The drawback will be that the boom will rotate as the motor "coasts" to a stop after the joystick is released... this can be minimized by using lower voltages for operation(but enough to engage the clutch firmly).

Thanks guys.  That makes a lot of sense to use a relay to slightly delay the motor after the clutch engages for hoisting.  Rob, I saw another thread where you recommended different voltages for the magnet vs the motor.  I suppose I could employ 3 different voltages for magnet, motor, and solenoid if need be to limit boom drift. 

@JD2035RR posted:

...makes a lot of sense to use a relay to slightly delay the motor after the clutch engages for hoisting...

That's a by-product. You need the relay to isolate the rotate command from the hoist commands.

Rob, I saw another thread where you recommended different voltages for the magnet vs the motor.  I suppose I could employ 3 different voltages for magnet, motor, and solenoid if need be to limit boom drift.

I was thinking the same thing as I typed. The magnet control is pretty critical, you want to use the lowest setting that provides the action you need, without usurping power from the crane motor & clutch and without burning up the magnet... which is why I use a separate small transformer.

I have used a 165, 282, crane over the years. These units were hooked up to the constant voltage out on the Z and ZW transformers. I forget the voltage but whatever the instructions said.  There was never any problem with the magnet buying up. If you let it on over night that would do it.  The controler is a simple lever contact switch that when you move it forward it make contact and the action works. Any simple push button - a door all button would work. One button for each action. The controller is not a complicated device.  So the joy stick with a common point for the ground and one wire from each position will work your crane.  should not be a problem. some folks seem to make it so.

@Repairpartsman posted:

Any simple push button - a door all button would work. One button for each action. The controller is not a complicated device.

The 165/182 controller IS actually quite complicated, those simple-appearing buttons do a lot of work. If you can draw a diagram to get this joystick to work in place of the 4 buttons, I'd like to see it.

The 282/282R controller is a SPDT (on)-off-(on)  switch for the motor-left/right operation, a SPST off-(on) switch for the hoist clutch, and a SPST off-on switch for the magnet. If the joystick doesn't have DPST(OFF-on) switches for up-down hoisting positions, the relays are needed.

So I have tried to map this out as best as I can.  Rob, as you point out you need to isolate the solenoid signal from "backfeeding" the unintended motor direction.  I've only shown the signal wires (thin) and load lines (thick) for simplicity's sake.   I'd still like to institute some sort of delay between the solenoid and motor functions when hoisting - not sure how to do that.

Does this look ok?  Any recommendations?

Looks good, the backfeed issue can be addressed using just two SPDT relays instead of the four SPST in the diagram.

@JD2035RR posted:

...   I'd still like to institute some sort of delay between the solenoid and motor functions when hoisting - not sure how to do that.

Does this look ok?  Any recommendations?

...

I don't quite understand the required timing/delay relationship, but if you are willing to use 12V DC as what you are calling the "signal" wire, there are all manners of "delay relay" modules that can insert a short settable delay (e.g., 1 second) between activation and relay closure.

Additionally, by using 12V DC as the "signal" voltage (instead of Accessory AC), you can then use inexpensive 12V DC SPDT relay modules...less than a buck per relay in example below!  The relays themselves would still switch Accessory AC as the "load."  Unless you have a stash of AC-coil relays, you might spend maybe $10 each for an AC-coil relay.

And if you go the 12V DC route for the signal wires, it is generally easier to implement "logic".  By logic I mean for example having two inputs where either can activate the relay...the so-called logical "OR" function...which can be implemented by a pair of 10 cent diodes.

You would need a source of 12V DC for all this, which could be a 12V DC wall-wart.  Or there are modules which can convert Accessory AC to 12V DC for less than $5.

It's not quite clear from the joystick datasheet, but the photo suggests you actually have 4 completely independent SPST switches, 2-terminals per switch, and of course only 1 can be active at a time.  I don't know if this can be used to advantage but always good to know what you're dealing with.

@stan2004 posted:

I don't quite understand the required timing/delay relationship,

It's difficult to grasp if you've never actually used a 282 that is running well and lubed properly, but if you release the joystick from the "up" or "down" position, the solenoid will immediately release the hoist clutch while the motor is coasting down, causing the boom to swivel left or right until the motor comes to a stop. There is no flywheel, but it is flywheel action, from the little motor that was adapted from the prewar OO Hudson steam engine, so they were well designed.

When using a discreet lever for the clutch like on the original controller, this is a non issue, unless you physically release the clutch intentionally while the motor is coasting down.

Yup. I've never used a 282 so struggling a bit to translate the words into a black-box electrical problem.

Just pondering if this might be solvable with "modern" inexpensive 12V DC relays and timing circuits.

Likewise, if doing a complete re-wire anyway, perhaps "modern" inexpensive diodes - using the diode-dropping method - can be used to generate the multiple AC voltages rather than requiring multiple transformers.

All in the spirit of OGR being a discussion forum of course...

You fellows are really getting imaginative and technical in improving the Crane controls that Lionel made.  A joy stick control will be very neat.  I did this simple and low tech improvement to my Lionel Gantry Crane 12834 control so I did not have have three hands to operate it!

Making the  Crane Control be a Two Handed Operation

I have found I need three hands to operate the Crane control.  One for Up and Down Lever, a second for swinging the crane boom Left and Right and a third for holding the magnet voltage ON as there is not a lock on that control, with justifiably concern for burning out the magnet.  I made a small wooden wedge out a piece of pop sickle stick, added a red handle to the stick.  The red handled wedge used to force the magnet voltage to be ON without using a third hand.  Care must be taken not leave the wedge in.

Charlie

@Choo Choo Charlie posted:

.. a third for holding the magnet voltage ON as there is not a lock on that control...

We have been referring to the original 282/282R controller here... which does have a lock, and a little bit different operating procedure than the new version with can motors.

ADCX Rob

Rob

Thanks for the info on the original crane controller.  I had to reinvent the wheel.  Question is why did Lionel leave the lock off the new magnet controls?

Charlie

@Choo Choo Charlie posted:

Question is why did Lionel leave the lock off the new magnet controls?

It was probably a CPSC issue for the reason you mentioned - concern for burning out the magnet, and causing burns to children.

@Choo Choo Charlie posted:

Thanks for the info on the original crane controller.

The operation of your crane is very straight forward.

@stan2004 Thank you for the information, Stan.  I have received the joystick, and you are correct that it is actually 4 separate SPST switches.  Pretty nice quality for about $11.  I have the relay module and 12v supply on order - shipping may take a few weeks.

I had trouble finding a DPST relay that I was comfortable with and still cheap.  Most had small pins designed for a PCB and I really prefer the screw terminals.  So I went with a SPST module with 4 relays.  I'd like to keep the whole package relatively small to contain within a project box, so we'll see how it works out.  I'll test it like that without a delay between solenoid clutch activation and motor activation.  If that isn't satisfactory, I will try one of those delay relays.  I wonder if those delay relays would delay both the activation and the release of the relay, or if it only delays the activation? 

Given the insanely low per-relay cost of these multi-channel 12V DC relay modules, note that you can simply pair up 2 SPDT relays to "make" a DPDT relay.  So on the input/trigger side you simply are turning on (or off) two relays at once.  And if all you need is a DPST relay, then it's not like there's any cost penalty when relays are less than a buck!

I have nothing to contribute as to the need (or not) for a delay between activating or de-activating a relay for the purposes of crane control.

In general, there a two basic types of low-cost 12V DC delay relay module, Delay ON and Delay OFF.  Again, these are a couple bucks a piece and widely available.

The lowest cost modules use a screwdriver delay adjustment as on the left in photo above.  A Delay ON module will wait some settable delay following application of 12V DC before the relay turns ON....hence the "Delay ON" name.  A Delay OFF module will immediately turn ON upon application of 12V DC, then some settable delay before the relay turns OFF...hence the "Delay OFF" name.  For a few bucks more, say, $5-10 you can get delay modules that have all manners of time delay functions with digital precision as on the right in photo above.  So you can set the delay to exactly 0.3 seconds, or 0.4 seconds, and so on.

I can't recall needing a delay relay that delays both when turning on AND when turning off.  I wouldn't be surprised if such an animal exists but just haven't looked.  My first inclination if such a function is under consideration would be to cascade or pair-up two or more regular delay relay modules to cobble together that dual delay functionality to see if that is truly what's needed.

I take it from the context of your comments that you would prefer to stay with screw-terminal-level of interconnections at the modular level versus working at the component level and soldering tiny individual parts like resistors, capacitors, and such.  However, if it turns out that some configuration of delay modules is exactly what you want...but the modular level is just too bulky to fit in a suitable project box, then I should be able tell you how to convert a generic non-delay multi-relay module into one with time-delays using a handful of individual components (diodes, resistors, capacitors, etc. that are, say, 10 cents each).  So the cost would be negligible but we can decide later if the DIY assembly task is worth the effort.

I guess what I'm trying to say is let's figure out what you need (I like your phrase "re-imagine") with regards to timing, delays, relays, etc.. and I am confident something can be put together to do so.

Stan, again thanks for your thoughts.  I'm not opposed to soldering small parts if needed - but I'm just not that good at it!   Let's cross that bridge when we get there.  I'll start with the relays without any delay and assess if the performance is satisfactory.

As I wait for the parts to arrive, I began going down the road of adding lateral movement of the entire crane.  I've seen guys use a threaded rod, and Lionel used a small motor/gearbox and wheel.  I purchased a small motor with gearbox and shaft.   I haven't decided if I'm just going to add a wheel and strap it to one of the legs, or go the threaded rod route - or possibly a string and pulley system.  I'm leaning toward strapping the motor/gearbox/wheel to one of the legs so it is more modular and could be moved around to different areas of the layout.  Without knowing exactly how fast this will move the crane, I opted to also get a potentiometer module to control the voltage.

Another thing I would like to do, but I'm not sure how to do it, is adding a safety off for the electromagnet.  This will be powered by AC (unless DC would be better?)

Here are some pictures of what I write about above:

Controller layout:

@JD2035RR posted:

...

Without knowing exactly how fast this will move the crane, I opted to also get a potentiometer module to control the voltage.

Another thing I would like to do, but I'm not sure how to do it, is adding a safety off for the electromagnet.  This will be powered by AC (unless DC would be better?)

...

Yep. That's the ubiquitous N20 DC can motor you'll find in most O-gauge smoke unit for the fan. 

They give you data for the unloaded output RPM for nominal voltage inputs of 3-12V (4 to 1 ratio).  So you can take the RPM and convert to inches-per-second (or whatever) by scaling the RPM by the wheel diameter.  So, for example, lets say you apply 12V DC to the "B" version which says 68 RPM (unloaded) and you use a 1" diameter "rubber" wheel that makes firm (not slipping) contact to the surface.  Each revolution is 1" x pi = 3.1 inches.  So 68 RPM is 211 inches per minute or about 3.5 inches per second.  But this is the unloaded gearmotor speed so under the load of moving the gantry structure, it might be, say, half that speed.  Anyway, there might be some fiddling using the speed control module and/or using a different version of the N20 gearmotor.

As for the electromagnet, by safety I'm guessing you mean some kind of timer?  For example, if you use a Delay-OFF relay module, this would allow you to apply electromagnet power for at most "X" seconds.  The Delay-OFF relay module would be powered by 12V DC, but the relay contacts would switch whatever suitable AC voltage to the electromagnet.  So the Delay-OFF relay would turn off automatically after "X" seconds...and would require the toggle switch to be turned off then back on to turn the magnet on for another "X" seconds.  To keep things simple, yes, you'd let the relay switch AC voltage to the electromagnet since this insures you don't magnetize the electromagnet if you use DC voltage which would then required degaussing the magnet.  Frankly, I'm exhausted going around in circles on the magnetization "argument" of using DC vs. AC so let's just stay with AC voltage for the electromagnet since the actual physics of magnetization is quite nerdy and becomes a circus sideshow with too many experts.

There are other "safety off" techniques such as 50-cent self-resettable time-delay "fuses" also known as PTC switches that will turn off after some number of seconds.  I guess my point is you have bigger fish to fry!  That is, I/we will be able to come up with some method of protect the electromagnet from overheating or whatever.

So in your photo I notice the electromagnet switch has an LED?!  Is this meant to indicate when power is applied to the electromagnet?  In general, these switches are wired such that the red LED indicates that the switch is thrown rather than that the load is receiving power.   Is this what you have?

This may seem like semantic gymnastics but is relevant if you have an external (external to the switch) mechanism to cut power to the electromagnet even if the switch is thrown to the ON position.  To that end, I'd think you'd want the LED in the switch handle to turn off if the "safety off" mechanism for the electromagnet trips after "X" seconds.  I may be overthinking what you intend so just ignore if you have no idea what I'm mumbling about! 

Anyway, I am increasingly finding your project fascinating and am standing by to assist in any which way!

I'm a fan of the PTC, easy to stick in and will do the job.

I finally received all of the parts needed for the controller.  Free time has been non-existent lately to complete the project, but I had an idea to use an old LW case to house the joystick and switches rather than a boring square project box.  I dry fit the switches to try the idea.  The base of the joystick (below the surface) is pretty large and uses all of the space vertically within the case.  I can use binding posts for the wiring connection.  With a little modification, I think I can make the case work while giving it some postwar style to go along with the crane.   I'm debating placement of the traction direction switch (bottom left of photo) to either the front side of the case or to the left of the magnet switch.  I hope for a more functional update soon.  Thanks all for your thoughts and insight to this point.

I have the same joystick and 282R Gantry Crane. I was hoping to see the results here. Did anyone manage any satisfactory results using a joystick in place of the lionel controller?

Can anyone add to this by chance? I'm looking for a schematic for the 282R controller so I could use the joystick for left and right, a dpdt on-off-on toggle lever/switch with diodes in what orientation? Would 1n4001s be OK here? Also I'm upgrading the magnet to a 12VDC electromagnet I tested tonight and works great!!