Yet another marketing genius weighs in...

Well said!

Exactly why I stay in the conventional/ second hand market, world. All the fancy features in the new locos are cool but way to pricey for a toy IMHO. (Don't shoot the messenger please). 

Check out the new thread about K-line Fans here. Kind of sums it up.

Bob

Mike Wyatt posted:

I guess I don't think "Legacy Control" and a lot of the other whiz-bang stuff is really needed, if you have walk-around control like LC.  The DCC and Legacy systems add $ 300- 400 to the guy's layout costs.

And you're certainly entitled to your opinion.   I don't share it, but I think I'm entitled to my opinion as well.

Interesting assessment Mike -

There certainly are some good talking points.

There are select few that buy only based on its accuracy. I would include that in your analysis.

Not sure I agree on Volume going down based on BTO. When BTO is setting the volume

Warranty may set future volume  based on repaired features from current releases, but again new features draw interest.

I would say reliable added features increases volume and sales.

My enthusiasm is based a little higher:

Top end: VL and Brass Hybrid with full legacy features - with NEW tooling or brass construction -  Deluxe features -They sell every one currently with BTO

Middle end: Legacy controlled locomotives with scale features- reissues based on current dies - new road numbers - non BTO - simplified features

Low end: O-27 or semi scale with simplified control - Bluetooth or LC

Entry level: O-27 with kid based themes sold at big box stores.

I am almost sure many will disagree, but remember in order for this hobby to survive it is going to have to come to par with the new technology that is offered in other scales.

I have always felt as the original poster has.  

Paying so much more money for disposable technology is crazy.  Especially given today's poor quality standards.

Gentlemen & Women... Start your engines.   

Mike,  You need to be the CEO of Lionel and/or MTH.  I'd hire you in a New York minute.

Dennis

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Mike Wyatt posted:

I guess I don't think "Legacy Control" and a lot of the other whiz-bang stuff is really needed, if you have walk-around control like LC.  The DCC and Legacy systems add $ 300- 400 to the guy's layout costs.

And you're certainly entitled to your opinion.   I don't share it, but I think I'm entitled to my opinion as well.

The purchase of Legacy/TMCC, DCS, DCC systems are one time costs anyway.  Once a person has one, he's not going to buy new ones every year.

Technology and features are what's driving the market nowadays and the companies have responded to it.  Whether that's good or bad is simply a point of view.

Rusty

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Mike Wyatt posted:

I guess I don't think "Legacy Control" and a lot of the other whiz-bang stuff is really needed, if you have walk-around control like LC.  The DCC and Legacy systems add $ 300- 400 to the guy's layout costs.

And you're certainly entitled to your opinion.   I don't share it, but I think I'm entitled to my opinion as well.

I'm with GRJ on this one. If it wasn't for layout control systems like Legacy & DCS, I wouldn't have gotten back into the hobby. The first time I ran a DCS engine I was sold on the technology, and Legacy followed soon after. 

Even with the latest LC+ of today, the technical limitations of that system wouldn't have enticed me enough to get back in. The rich features and scalability of Legacy & DCS keep my interest peaked.

While I do like running my few remaining conventional engines every once in a while, it isn't often nor do those sessions last long.

We aren't talking about selling tomato soup here. Model trains are a specialized, limited demand market, which is why Built to Order is the only viable marketing strategy.

Jeff C

An opening door or opening coupler door: maybe the cost to do that is "just" $ 5 per unit.  At the retail end- $ 20, but put three on the locomotive= $ 60.  Is THAT worth $60 and if so, to how many potential buyers is it worth $60??

I agree. When MTH started making subway cars, I went for the most basic models. The additional features of the more expensive models weren't worth the extra money to me. Then Lionel came out with subway cars that had opening doors. It shouldn't be any surprise that the doors were of no interest to me.

Rusty Traque posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Mike Wyatt posted:

I guess I don't think "Legacy Control" and a lot of the other whiz-bang stuff is really needed, if you have walk-around control like LC.  The DCC and Legacy systems add $ 300- 400 to the guy's layout costs.

And you're certainly entitled to your opinion.   I don't share it, but I think I'm entitled to my opinion as well.

The purchase of Legacy/TMCC, DCS, DCC systems are one time costs anyway.  Once a person has one, he's not going to buy new ones every year.

Technology and features are what's driving the market nowadays and the companies have responded to it.  Whether that's good or bad is simply a point of view.

Rusty

I agree that technology is driving not only the model train market but all markets.  For example, it is almost impossible to buy any mass produced automobile with a stick transmission or without some sort of radio, heater or air conditioner.  My parents first car had a stick and no radio, heater or AC much less seat belts or air bags.  I wouldn't buy that car now.  

All of my train friends are buying trains with technology installed.  Hardly anyone runs just conventional once they have tried command control no matter what the scale.

NH Joe

Mike Wyatt posted:

I guess I don't think "Legacy Control" and a lot of the other whiz-bang stuff is really needed, if you have walk-around control like LC.  The DCC and Legacy systems add $ 300- 400 to the guy's layout costs.  

Considering how much money is spent on locomotives, rolling stock, track, benchwork and layout supplies I don't think an additional $300-$400 for a command system is all that much, especially when you consider what you can get out of your trains with them.

I guess I look at it differently because ever since I switched from 3-rail to 2 I can upgrade and fix my 2-rail locos myself. Being self-sufficient in this hobby really helps. Hell, I've learned more about electricity in this hobby than I ever did before. 😉

   Needed and wanted are two different things John, and your wants are still fine and dandy, and in production; the wants of others, not so much. 

 As much as I agree, the price groupings are off IMO.  Command stuff isn't going away...period, and it is your high end.

  Better quality conventional and radio remote (LC+), some more generic sounds maybe? Smoke for sure.

  And low dollar simple conventional with a whistle/horn at best, or radio remote (LC). 

  LC doesn't fill the need of the traditional conventional folks well, we're left with Wlliams and RMT leftovers for now; but that may not last either. Williams seems to be less than content with keeping things simple electronically as well.

  The profit margin of electronics is just too tempting to avoid force feeding of it IMO.  I'll stick to second hand from the big names & Menards cars (you know, the line of cars that couldn't be made at lower costs, let alone sell. )

  I'd want to stagger the grades of electronic features as you would details; a draw into the next "stage" of models.  As I pointed out before, upgrades are always possible.  Or were anyhow.

 IMO The abandoned ERR means either another command system change is in the works or they are starting a play at dissassociation; the sooner or more "do it yourself" thoughts are abondonded, the more sales might be had.  The "destroy the past, but embrace the legacy"(no pun intended by me, but ironic eh? This was my first thought on hearing the name Legacy as well; would they be using the perception of a legacy, but actually try to eliminate it physically). This technique to guide perceptions is not new or limited to air cooled VWs, or street trolleys and buses

    By getting rid of the old or driving a perception of inadequacy, the new sells more. I don't claim to be imune from the method, just a bit more aware that the average Joe on how far companies will run with crap like this. I say crap because a legacy isn't built by the past or present; but both.... if there is a future

New Haven Joe posted:

I agree that technology is driving not only the model train market but all markets.  For example, it is almost impossible to buy any mass produced automobile with a stick transmission or without some sort of radio, heater or air conditioner.  My parents first car had a stick and no radio, heater or AC much less seat belts or air bags.  I wouldn't buy that car now.  

All of my train friends are buying trains with technology installed.  Hardly anyone runs just conventional once they have tried command control no matter what the scale.

NH Joe

I bought a new vehicle recently.  I had a heckufatime finding one without a sunroof...

All this model train technology is stuff we dreamed of in the 60's and 70's.  Personally, it's all neat, but isn't my driving force for purchasing something.  I'm just as happy running something conventionally as I am with all the bells and whistles.

Rusty

New Haven Joe posted:

 My parents first car had a stick and no radio, heater or AC much less seat belts or air bags.  I wouldn't buy that car now.  

 

I would.  I DID.  I just had to buy used, which is what I do with trains, too.

If your top end was only that I wouldn’t be a customer 

I never understood the need for opening vestiblue doors, I have never been running trains and decided to open and close doors.  

I see and hear different points of view. So I'm going to add mine. 

They should never of done away with conventional, there is still a market for it. 

Lionchief/lionchief+ you can have it. I do not care for the concept. Maybe good for someone around the Christmas tree or for a child or someone with very limited space but to me that's it. 

BTO, I will not participate in that concept. Yes I buy off the internet without being able to touch it but I also can return it with no problems. I don't have to wait 1 to 3 years to get it, and have my money held up that long ( when I buy something I set the money aside so I have it. ) 

TMCC/Legacy/DCS etc. they normally are a one time investment. And that part I do like. The basic tmcc or Legacy engine is okay for me but most are more than I'am willing to pay. ( new anyway ) I really can't justify paying $500 - $2000 just for a engine. Fine it has all this detail. To me it's just bragging rights not what the hobby is suppose to be about. The hobby to me is to pursue and share the model railroading hobby. I guess it all comes down to what one is comfortable in spending. My question to you thou ( answer not looking for, just for you to ask your self ) other than all the extra detail Is your engine really any better than mine which is the same thing just not all the details. Ie if I have a conventional 4-4-4-4 and you have a vision line of the same is it really better other than all the little details? (mine just being original TMCC yours being Legacy of coarse ) Just my thought, which I know a lot of you won't agree with. even thou both will perform the same on the track. 

Mike raises some good points but I went for DCS and TMCC but no further.  For fun operations that's good enough for me.

Dennis

rtraincollector posted:

I see and hear different points of view. So I'm going to add mine. 

They should never of done away with conventional, there is still a market for it. 

Lionchief/lionchief+ you can have it. I do not care for the concept. Maybe good for someone around the Christmas tree or for a child or someone with very limited space but to me that's it. 

BTO, I will not participate in that concept. Yes I buy off the internet without being able to touch it but I also can return it with no problems. I don't have to wait 1 to 3 years to get it, and have my money held up that long ( when I buy something I set the money aside so I have it. ) 

TMCC/Legacy/DCS etc. they normally are a one time investment. And that part I do like. The basic tmcc or Legacy engine is okay for me but most are more than I'am willing to pay. ( new anyway ) I really can't justify paying $500 - $2000 just for a engine. Fine it has all this detail. To me it's just bragging rights not what the hobby is suppose to be about. The hobby to me is to pursue and share the model railroading hobby. I guess it all comes down to what one is comfortable in spending. My question to you thou ( answer not looking for, just for you to ask your self ) other than all the extra detail Is your engine really any better than mine which is the same thing just not all the details. Ie if I have a conventional 4-4-4-4 and you have a vision line of the same is it really better other than all the little details? (mine just being original TMCC yours being Legacy of coarse ) Just my thought, which I know a lot of you won't agree with. even thou both will perform the same on the track. 

Your right Bill,

To each his own, and I applaud anyone who can build, operate and enjoys model trains. I think it is a great brotherhood.

But really they have not gone away with conventional, really you can turn the command portion off anytime, and you have to remember the time when slow start can motors were way much better than our jack rabbit pull more motors for switching... I don't see us getting away with any new products without electronics in them.

I believe the point of the matter is not really "mine is bigger than yours ". And mine is much better than yours cause it cost more".  Its the strive for realism in a layout that makes you kick back and feel you are really hitting the mark in modeling it. How many people applaud more realistic layouts? Why is that not true about its locomotives and rolling stock? After seeing and admiring Norm C.s layout I wanted to weather my rolling stock too. I noticed that He did not have rows and rows of locomotives and cars... but just a few...

I feel less is more in model railroading and operating trains. I rather have 20 engines that are realistic than 100 that are ok....

But again, that is my fun. And when we try to generalize everyone into one group nobody will see eye to eye. Important thing is have fun!

You can say the same thing about everything.  Look at what they are doing to cars/SUV/trucks.   I don't want all those new bells and whistles, a lot of it is pointless and will break down the road.  How many can afford a new car without a six or higher year loan these days.  Not I.

"Good enough for me" pretty much nails it    I like the gadgets for a few days or until the novelty wears off; but the novelty of the trains themselves never got old for me.

   I've only owned two vehicles with AC ever, same two had power windows, and never bought another automatic after I learned to drive a stick well enough that I did not need the clutch after 1st gear.   My buddy just spent a good deal of effort to get a new vehicle without power windows. He wanted less than that...but couldn't find one. He would have actually paid more for less options, rather than have to deal with more costly or pita problems in the future (and likely did, having it shipped from the Dakota's)

Used things have also usually had the bugs worked out anyhow.

  I only ran the home air cond. three days this year as well... each after a long day in the hot sun. A cool bath would have done the trick. I must be getting spoiled; soft

Regardless of marketing, in the USA we have a choice to buy or not to buy.

The original poster mentions Lionel, MTH, and Atlas.  Bachmann's Williams Line has a wide variety of outstanding engines and cars for those who want conventional control.  Some companies such as 3rd Rail are only going to make high end products, some are going to serve a wide spectrum of modelers, and at least Bachmann meets the needs for reasonably priced and excellent trains without bells and whistles.  (Actually all Williams engines have great bells and whistles but no other upscale features.)

I have no connection with Williams except for buying and operating their trains.

NH Joe

RSJB18 posted:

Well said!

Exactly why I stay in the conventional/ second hand market, world. All the fancy features in the new locos are cool but way to pricey for a toy IMHO. (Don't shoot the messenger please). 

 

Exactly how I feel, friend.

Well us consumers made the demand for what the manufacturers are producing.

This thread is a variation on a theme that comes up here all the time. Not complaining at all, it's just an observation.

After reading through this one I'm left with the same thought as always:

It's a big-tent hobby with something for everyone. Buy what you like, run what you buy.

I certainly agree there is a definite need for conventional and less expensive train items, as well as LC, LC+, wifi, etc. and Menards also fills a void with their offerings of inexpensive rolling stock, cars, trucks, buildings etc. I also think there is a definite need for command control train items. I am back in the hobby because of DCS, Legacy and I want to add a DCC system to fiddle with in the future, love the electronics part of it. The added features of all of these systems is the only reason I am helping the train manufacturer's with their bottom lines. No question that there is room for all in this hobby, no matter what type of control you choose.

I only have room for a 4x8 layout in our small spare bedroom. No basements out here in California. So I have no need for command control, Legacy,Dcc, etc.

Lionel has apparently stopped making purely conventional locos, so when I buy a new one it will have to be either LC+ or Legacy. The first is overpriced for what I need and the second is very overpriced. Nevertheless, if I really want something, those are my choices. I like the way Lc+ locos run, btw.

I have some of both of these types. Since I own plenty of conventional models from previous eras, there is little need for me to pay for new features I don’t care about on current production. These days, I spend most of my money on new rolling stock, and it is overpriced as well, IMO, especially when you pay MSRP as is customary here in Cali.

That said, I am not complaining, just explaining. I have all the trains I will ever need and more. And  I still buy select new items that interest me, just not anywhere near the number I used to. As a seventy-year-old retiree, this makes good sense to me.

Mike Wyatt posted:

Who am I to tell Lionel, Atlas,  and MTH what to do, but .....  here is my take, based on a marketing background and career:

It is possible with the technology available today to add SO MANY features that the selling prices (particularly locomotives) get way out of hand.  Then the reality of these retail prices is muddied by the "collector" market, especially the collector market of the 1980's that is no more.

So, a company (like Lionel) decides to be the LEADER in technology, and be all things to all people.

BUT:

- every whiz-bang feature added costs money, and the retail price costs about 4 times or more what the item itself costs.  This by the time it gets through the manufacturing cost, the contract manufacturer's (China) profit margin, the importer's (Lionel) margin, the distributor's margin and the retailers margin. 

An opening door or opening coupler door: maybe the cost to do that is "just" $ 5 per unit.  At the retail end- $ 20, but put three on the locomotive= $ 60.  Is THAT worth $60 and if so, to how many potential buyers is it worth $60??

-  As the price goes up- fewer people are willing to pay it and volume goes down.  

-  As the volume goes down, the cost per unit for tooling and production goes UP.  And the retail prices go up even more.

-  So- the manufacturer puts in artificial selling schemes- like "Built to Order"- and the volume goes down even more, since fewer are willing to pony up money or even order an item they have never seen- even with no $$ commitment- and wait a year- 18 months to get the item. Cost goes up.  Volume goes down. 

- As these "cool" features get added, there are more things to go wrong- and warranty costs go up- and the retail prices go higher as a result.  Also- customer satisfaction goes DOWN- he pays $ 1000 for a toy, and the screws are loose, the features might not all work, and he has to call, get a return authorization, wait, and (sometimes) the thing comes back NOT fixed, or even made worse.  Cost goes up.  Volume goes down. 

- And the retailers: yes there are fewer brick and mortar stores out there.  But the ones that are still in business for sure cannot afford to stock a $ 1000 locomotive where they pay        $ 800- 900+ for it.  The inventory kills them.  A $300 locomotive- at a cost of $ 225?? Maybe.  BUT I think people are reluctant to buy something that (a) they can't see except in pictures, (b) something 12-18 months away, and (d) at a very high price.

I guess I don't think "Legacy Control" and a lot of the other whiz-bang stuff is really needed, if you have walk-around control like LC.  The DCC and Legacy systems add $ 300- 400 to the guy's layout costs. 

 

IF I was the guru at one of these companies- here would be MY product line:

Top end: something like Lion Chief Plus- reliable, walk-around control, and some features that really matter like speed control, chuff, horn/whistle, remote couplers, MAYBE crew talk.   A LC+ line might fall to $ 250- 300 or so with volume and longer production runs.  

But -- have a lot of road names available, and the "New Road Names" are the feature in the newest catalogs- NOT new locomotives as such.  This way, the production run of, say a Pacific,  is over several years- and only colors and road markings change.  The manufacturing quality should improve.   They could introduce some "scale" and some in "traditional" sizes, but just not 10-12 "all new" locomotives every year.

Middle end:  I still think there is a market for high-quality transformer-controlled locomotives.   Make them GOOD ones, and probably all in "traditional" sizes.  Maybe duplicate the "classics" from the PW era. 

I know Lionel did this- "Conventional Classics" - but it was not particularly successful- why not?? Was it a bad idea- or a poorly-executed GOOD idea??  Too many old ones available?  The current way to market was already in place, so the advantages of that line did not play??  The fact that the prices were SO high no retailers would stock them??  Any or all of these could have contributed to the failure.

Low end- have a good line of inexpensive "set" trains with themes, like MTH and Lionel do- Mickey Mouse, Thomas, etc. to attract the youngest people into the hobby.

 

I think you have hit the nail on the head.

Thought provoking post even if I don't agree with a lot of it.

I won't buy an engine without Bluetooth.  I ordered a Legacy SD40-2 out of the latest catalog.  The MSRP of comparable engines has gone down $100 in three years (even with the latest whiz-bang).  If it's a trend, it's a good one! 

2018, Vol. 2: SD40-2 = $549 MSRP
2017, Vol. 2: SD40T-2 = $599 MSRP
2017, Vol. 1: SD40 = $649 MSRP
2016, Vol. 2: SD45 = $649 MSRP
2015, Vol. 1: SD40 = $649 MSRP

To each his own.

Hopefully  one of the forum members will start a new toy train company that can produce the items desired here in this thread and compete with MTH, Lionel, Atlas, 3rd Rail, et al.  Some new competition would be good for everybody.

As a car nut and a train nut, I see others see the same thing I do.  I owned a car for several years before I learned and used cruise control.  Now, as it saves gas, I demand and use it all the time on rural or Interstate driving.  I ordered cars without PS or PB, definitely without AT (which I change makes and country of origin to avoid) and am fearful that the next car may have to be either tiny or an expensive import to avoid junk I don't want on my car  (turbo, CVT, etc.).  Uh, after they got the bugs out of PS and PB, PW, cruise control, I demand them, too...but they don't affect driveability.  The consumer magazine I rely on to tell me which heap will stay together, says that most of the problems on new cars are the electronics, which I ignore.  Certainly nothing I will pay extra for.  That is what I read here with regard to trains.  Others can run, and drive, whatever they are willing to pay to fix, for fix it they will.  You can read it here.

Interesting post, Mike.  For me, though, your high end would be my low end.  I look at LC+ as nice for those wanting a limited, easy entry into command control.  Conventional and sets don't even register with me.

I believe the manufacturers marketing is pretty good. Just wish they would do an accurate freight F3 ABA in PRR livery*.

*If you want to discuss 3rd Rail's entry, please email me.  Not here.

palallin posted:

New Haven Joe posted:

 My parents first car had a stick and no radio, heater or AC much less seat belts or air bags.  

I would.  I DID. 

I'm in the process of building that car now. No radio, heater, AC. The POWER is under my right foot. It is getting seatbelts.

This sort of reminds me of the debate between old Mustang guys and new Mustang guys.  My first car was a 1968 Mustang,  unfortunatley it was a 6 cylinder, and was probably only running on 4 of them. I loved that car and with the help of my dad was able to keep it running for years.  I eventually "sold" to my cousin for the price of its new tires.  In 2001 i bought a new Mustang,   v6,  way more power, its got low miles and a stick shift that i love to drive.  I was having it serviced at the dealer last month, and there was a wait, so i walked over to the showroom. I sat in the new GT,  and for a very brief moment thought how cool it would be to drive one.  It was love at first sight but decided to pass on the offer.  Thats the same reasoning that i keep my layout at 54 inch curves, so i can just dream about owning a big boy and that is good enough for me.  While i like the new stuff, i still really enjoy vintage lionel.

The good news is for those who want what the OP is suggesting, semi-scale, lacking in detail, and no technology to break or go bad, there are thousand, perhaps tens of thousands of post war era engines, cars, transformers, and tack for sale every day on a number of online auction sites.

In terms of the cost, well LEGO doesn't have any technology and their prices have increased far more than trains. To those who feel that kids / families today cannot afford trains, just visit the LEGO store, the smallest sets with 80 to 90 bricks will set you back over $10.00. That is more than a dime per LEGO brick -- if I look into my son's room there are at least 4,000 bricks on the floor at any given time, and double that in tubs -- hello $1,200.00 in random LEGO bricks.