Dennis posted:Mike, You need to be the CEO of Lionel and/or MTH. I'd hire you in a New York minute.
Dennis
Me Too man INTERNET HIGH FIVE
Mike Wyatt posted:Who am I to tell Lionel, Atlas, and MTH what to do, but ..... here is my take, based on a marketing background and career:
It is possible with the technology available today to add SO MANY features that the selling prices (particularly locomotives) get way out of hand. Then the reality of these retail prices is muddied by the "collector" market, especially the collector market of the 1980's that is no more.
So, a company (like Lionel) decides to be the LEADER in technology, and be all things to all people.
BUT:
- every whiz-bang feature added costs money, and the retail price costs about 4 times or more what the item itself costs. This by the time it gets through the manufacturing cost, the contract manufacturer's (China) profit margin, the importer's (Lionel) margin, the distributor's margin and the retailers margin.
An opening door or opening coupler door: maybe the cost to do that is "just" $ 5 per unit. At the retail end- $ 20, but put three on the locomotive= $ 60. Is THAT worth $60 and if so, to how many potential buyers is it worth $60??
- As the price goes up- fewer people are willing to pay it and volume goes down.
- As the volume goes down, the cost per unit for tooling and production goes UP. And the retail prices go up even more.
- So- the manufacturer puts in artificial selling schemes- like "Built to Order"- and the volume goes down even more, since fewer are willing to pony up money or even order an item they have never seen- even with no $$ commitment- and wait a year- 18 months to get the item. Cost goes up. Volume goes down.
- As these "cool" features get added, there are more things to go wrong- and warranty costs go up- and the retail prices go higher as a result. Also- customer satisfaction goes DOWN- he pays $ 1000 for a toy, and the screws are loose, the features might not all work, and he has to call, get a return authorization, wait, and (sometimes) the thing comes back NOT fixed, or even made worse. Cost goes up. Volume goes down.
- And the retailers: yes there are fewer brick and mortar stores out there. But the ones that are still in business for sure cannot afford to stock a $ 1000 locomotive where they pay $ 800- 900+ for it. The inventory kills them. A $300 locomotive- at a cost of $ 225?? Maybe. BUT I think people are reluctant to buy something that (a) they can't see except in pictures, (b) something 12-18 months away, and (d) at a very high price.
I guess I don't think "Legacy Control" and a lot of the other whiz-bang stuff is really needed, if you have walk-around control like LC. The DCC and Legacy systems add $ 300- 400 to the guy's layout costs.
IF I was the guru at one of these companies- here would be MY product line:
Top end: something like Lion Chief Plus- reliable, walk-around control, and some features that really matter like speed control, chuff, horn/whistle, remote couplers, MAYBE crew talk. A LC+ line might fall to $ 250- 300 or so with volume and longer production runs.
But -- have a lot of road names available, and the "New Road Names" are the feature in the newest catalogs- NOT new locomotives as such. This way, the production run of, say a Pacific, is over several years- and only colors and road markings change. The manufacturing quality should improve. They could introduce some "scale" and some in "traditional" sizes, but just not 10-12 "all new" locomotives every year.
Middle end: I still think there is a market for high-quality transformer-controlled locomotives. Make them GOOD ones, and probably all in "traditional" sizes. Maybe duplicate the "classics" from the PW era.
I know Lionel did this- "Conventional Classics" - but it was not particularly successful- why not?? Was it a bad idea- or a poorly-executed GOOD idea?? Too many old ones available? The current way to market was already in place, so the advantages of that line did not play?? The fact that the prices were SO high no retailers would stock them?? Any or all of these could have contributed to the failure.
Low end- have a good line of inexpensive "set" trains with themes, like MTH and Lionel do- Mickey Mouse, Thomas, etc. to attract the youngest people into the hobby.
yeah traditional o is growing on me i for one like the old school style hand rails plus the shortened sizes are nice too one reason i like LGB as well - realalistic enough to have a real world classification yet very toy like
I think there is a wide variety of products available on the market, primary and secondary, so I don't get the constant complaining that MTH, Lionel, etc. don't make exactly what you or I want in new products. I'm afraid many of us sound like we're old curmudgeons. Find your peace inside yourself and stop worrying about what the world does not provide, before it's all over in any case. The good old days were only good because we were young, strong, healthy and had our futures ahead of us. Have fun, instead of heartburn. Do the things that bring you joy, but don't expect others or the world to conform to your tastes and desires. Especially if your tastes and desires reflect a time 40-50 years ago. It ain't happening. Ever. Complaining eventually becomes toxic to the complainer. Not directed at the original poster or anyone specific, just the issues. Rant off.
I recently read Jerry Calabrese' marketing theory in an older issue of OGR ~ aka the "funnel theory" and it addresses much of what you discuss. Am guessing it is accurate. I'll find the issue # if anyone is interested.
CincinnatiWestern posted:The good news is for those who want what the OP is suggesting, semi-scale, lacking in detail, and no technology to break or go bad, there are thousand, perhaps tens of thousands of post war era engines, cars, transformers, and tack for sale every day on a number of online auction sites.
Ah, but what of those of us who want SCALE, lacking in detail, and no technology to break or go bad? There is an unspoken but seriously flawed assumption that all the electronic felgercarb goes with scale, and people who don't want it will prefer "semi-scale."
'Tain't so, McGee! If I wanted 027 (which I have NO objection to, btw) I wouldn't have sold off my collection of it, and I would have been perfectly happy, just as you say. But I decided to narrow my focus (to control costs and numbers), so I sold it to buy Scale sized. At the time, there was a growing selection of scale stuff unburdened by most of the bells and whistles, certainly untainted by command control. But that path came to an abrupt halt with the technophile revolution.
It always amazes me why the train manufacturers don't hire all of the marketing geniuses here on this forum....!!
OGR PUBLISHER posted:It always amazes me why the train manufacturers don't hire all of the marketing geniuses here on this forum....!!
Couldn't have said it better myself! 
If there's such a huge demand for shelf queens or conventional operating locomotives with no sound, command, smoke, etc., where are the major manufacturers? They're missing out on a golden marketing opportunity it would appear! 
"At the time, there was a growing selection of scale stuff unburdened by most of the bells and whistles, certainly untainted by command control. "
Are you referring to Right-of-Way, Williams, etc. in the early 1990s? I cannot recall any other period where scale sized equipment had no command control or fancy-smancey electronics (e.g., PS1) to go wrong.
Landsteiner posted:"At the time, there was a growing selection of scale stuff unburdened by most of the bells and whistles, certainly untainted by command control. "
Are you referring to Right-of-Way, Williams, etc. in the early 1990s? I cannot recall any other period where scale sized equipment had no command control or fancy-smancey electronics (e.g., PS1) to go wrong.
Those are two examples, yes, but Lionel had its share, with the Southern/Frisco Mikado, the NYC/T&P 4-8-2s, for example. Heck, there were even still Pullmore motors in some of them.
None is a shelf queen on my layout. They run constantly--and well (or, at least, the Mike did before I made the mistake of having TMC installed).
palallin posted:None is a shelf queen on my layout. They run constantly--and well (or, at least, the Mike did before I made the mistake of having TMC installed).
I'll be glad to return your Mike to conventional operation for you.
Amen, Alan.
Ed Boyle
aussteve posted:Hopefully one of the forum members will start a new toy train company that can produce the items desired here in this thread and compete with MTH, Lionel, Atlas, 3rd Rail, et al. Some new competition would be good for everybody.
Not certain whether you are being facetious or not, but K-Line and Williams were doing just as you described. K-Line went bankrupt. Williams sold to Bachmann, which continues to make a more basic product line — at increasingly higher prices.
gunrunnerjohn posted:palallin posted:None is a shelf queen on my layout. They run constantly--and well (or, at least, the Mike did before I made the mistake of having TMC installed).I'll be glad to return your Mike to conventional operation for you.
When I get to the point I can afford it, I will take you up on that. Are you willing to perform the same operation to a TMCC Ten-wheeler and a Legacy Mike?
You bet, it's not a problem to return to basic operation.
OGR PUBLISHER posted:It always amazes me why the train manufacturers don't hire all of the marketing geniuses here on this forum....!!
I wasn't going to weigh in, but your comment sums it up.
We have a joke we use at train shows. We offer anyone who wants their idea built because it will "make lots of money" full use of the factory, design, and project management team to build their project as long as they front the entire cost of the project. Then they own all the product produced and can go make their fortune off the production run.
All of a sudden BTO makes complete sense in most cases.
Look, I have conventional models, TMCC models and DCS models. I see value in all of them.
But anyone who claims to have a background in marketing would understand, first and foremost, that the market drives the production.
It became obvious to the business managers at Lionel, MTH and K-Line in the 1990s that hobbyists were demanding something more. They responded. K-Line’s struggles aside, mostly due to cost factors and legal troubles with Lionel, the manufacturers succeeded in meeting that demand.
Another rule in marketing is not to rely on your own point of view as the basis for a business model. You study the market objectively, using data and metrics to reinforce any business plan.
Sure, there are folks that prefer conventional models. But not enough. Folks who harken back to postwar production as the ideal are far from the predominant market today. The proof is that hobbyists and manufacturers in HO and N scale have shifted to modern tech just as O gauge hobbyists and manufacturers have.
And finally, anyone with a background in marketing would know that production costs can’t be substantially reduced by eliminating a few simple gizmos such as details. Fine detail helps sell models, but it doesn’t add substantially to production costs. That’s why manufacturers add such details. Sure, electronic design elements add more substantially to the cost, but not to the level some like to think.
In short, no one is going to be able to tool up for a new locomotive of the simplest design that meets the expectations of a very limited customer base. Pretty basic stuff here. Marketing 101.
Jim R. posted:In short, no one is going to be able to tool up for a new locomotive of the simplest design that meets the expectations of a very limited customer base. Pretty basic stuff here. Marketing 101.
I think that's especially true for the folks here that are wanting detailed scale models, just without the electronics. If you truly want amazing and realistic detailing, that's where a lot of the costs are. In truth, with volume production of electronics, that part can be quite inexpensive in comparison to the actual locomotive.
Jim R. posted:Sure, there are folks that prefer conventional models. But not enough. Folks who harken back to postwar production as the ideal are far from the predominant market today. The proof is that hobbyists and manufacturers in HO and N scale have shifted to modern tech just as O gauge hobbyists and manufacturers have.
However, there are still plenty of conventional DC products still being made in HO and N by the likes of Athearn, Atlas, Bachmann, Fox Valley, Intermountain, Kato, Rapido, Scale Trains and Walthers.
The real beauty is, most of their conventional DC products are "DCC Ready," pre-wired so all the modeler has to do is unplug the shorting plug and install the decoder of his choice, be it sound or not.
Rusty
To quote myself (note bolding):
"Ah, but what of those of us who want SCALE, lacking in detail, and no technology to break or go bad? There is an unspoken but seriously flawed assumption that all the electronic felgercarb goes with scale, and people who don't want it will prefer 'semi-scale.'"
Offer me an engine scale in size that lacks the add-on details as well as the electronics. See, this is real simple: take your fanciest engine, *stop* the building process before the fiddly bits get added, top it off with a dead-simple reverse unit, and call it good. This is not added expense. You use the same tools to make it.
Doesn't WBB make plain, scale, conventional stuff? I know it's conventional and plain for the most part, not sure about scale. I guess everyone already knows about that though? Their MSRPs are high, but street prices are WAY less at some places.
Rusty Traque posted:Jim R. posted:Sure, there are folks that prefer conventional models. But not enough. Folks who harken back to postwar production as the ideal are far from the predominant market today. The proof is that hobbyists and manufacturers in HO and N scale have shifted to modern tech just as O gauge hobbyists and manufacturers have.
However, there are still plenty of conventional DC products still being made in HO and N by the likes of Athearn, Atlas, Bachmann, Fox Valley, Intermountain, Kato, Rapido, Scale Trains and Walthers.
The real beauty is, most of their conventional DC products are "DCC Ready," pre-wired so all the modeler has to do is unplug the shorting plug and install the decoder of his choice, be it sound or not.
Rusty
HO and N have even more traditional hobbyists than O gauge, so manufacturers can’t completely shut the door on DC. But check the prices. The cost reflects why the tech oriented models are reasonable in comparison. Design cost is based on the higher end models.
I've made this comment a few times in the past when similar discussions have come up, so I'll add it to this post as well: I'd like to see more of the manufacturers offer different "trim levels" similar to purchasing a car. K-Line started to this near the end with their KCC offerings and I thought it was a great idea. You could get a locomotive in conventional, conventional w/sound or full TMCC depending on your preference. Atlas does this as well to a certain extent. If most product is going to BTO, then why can't one order what they prefer and be able to save a few bucks if they don't need or want all of the features. Even though I've personally gone to full digital, I do feel the conventional guys are getting the shaft. How many re-hashed RS-3s and F-3s does one want? I'm sure some of you conventional guys would like to have an ES44AC or SD70ACe as well. Especially, if it could be offered for the 300 dollar range. Lionel looked to make an attempt with the SD60M in the last catalog by offering a full scale detailed model available in either Legacy or LC+ but I don't recall seeing anything similar in the latest one.
Rob
When the polls open, l am voting with PALALLIN. As for being able to order trains like automobiles...uh..that is, order trains like ONCE you could order cars. Nowadays, don't want an SUV or a sedan..too bad for you! And the list of former "options" you don't want and can't avoid unless you select from a dwindling or more exotic and expensive choice resembles that for our trains
..
I am NOT saying that you don't have the right to buy, or that somebody doesn't WANT the most possible features. My MAIN reason for the original post was: the technology advances seem to be outpacing the ability pf the manufacturers to offer quality.
However, logic says that with lower-volume or limited appeal models come smaller and shorter runs. This, coupled with rapid addition of features, lead to more things wrong with the product. A product with, say, 15 different features and a 500 unit production is far more likely to have something wrong, and cost more, than one with 8 features and a 5000 unit run.
And all of those features are "cool" but are they necessary?? Smoke- yes. Sound- yes. walk-around control- yes. Ability for the loco to "creep" and simulate starting under load- yes.
But.. 4 opening doors on one engine, simulated water pickup from a trough in the track, steam through the whistle ... just to name a few?? Each of these whiz-bang features adds engineering, tooling, manufacturing and warranty cost and complication, and will mean more unhappy customers.
To pay for a product, and have it come out of the box with loose screws, and/or have one or more of these paid-for features not work, or the locomotive not not even run right - or not run at all?? And then need to be shipped back to the manufacturer's service center?? Not good for business or the customers.
I think a slow down and focus on quality is in order.
Mike Wyatt posted:I am NOT saying that you don't have the right to buy, or that somebody doesn't WANT the most possible features. My MAIN reason for the original post was: the technology advances seem to be outpacing the ability pf the manufacturers to offer quality.
However, logic says that with lower-volume or limited appeal models come smaller and shorter runs. This, coupled with rapid addition of features, lead to more things wrong with the product. A product with, say, 15 different features and a 500 unit production is far more likely to have something wrong, and cost more, than one with 8 features and a 5000 unit run.
And all of those features are "cool" but are they necessary?? Smoke- yes. Sound- yes. walk-around control- yes. Ability for the loco to "creep" and simulate starting under load- yes.
But.. 4 opening doors on one engine, simulated water pickup from a trough in the track, steam through the whistle ... just to name a few?? Each of these whiz-bang features adds engineering, tooling, manufacturing and warranty cost and complication, and will mean more unhappy customers.
To pay for a product, and have it come out of the box with loose screws, and/or have one or more of these paid-for features not work, or the locomotive not not even run right - or not run at all?? And then need to be shipped back to the manufacturer's service center?? Not good for business or the customers.
I think a slow down and focus on quality is in order.
Many of us want trains with the above recommended features that are also rugged, durable and reliable. Those of us who got our first trains in the 1950s had Lionel trains that were amazingly rugged, durable and reliable.
There is validity to what Mike has said BUT the hobby isn't what it used to be way back when. Today's train market is a specialty market that's directed towards mainly a fixed older audience. The importers are faced with a challenge on how to come up with products for that market niche. The answer has been expensive Chinese made full feature product. This marketing strategy will be strained in view of the fixed demographic of those that buy the trains. For those that love conventional operation the market of low price examples is already flooded.
Mike Wyatt posted:I am NOT saying that you don't have the right to buy, or that somebody doesn't WANT the most possible features. My MAIN reason for the original post was: the technology advances seem to be outpacing the ability pf the manufacturers to offer quality.
There's a point that I can agree with! However, IMO it's not that the technology is so advanced. I think it's just that the manufacturers aren't providing proper design considerations and minimal QC for the products. Cutting corners in manufacturing to save pennies, and not having sufficient QC to weed out the issues of high volume and low cost production seems to be the main problems.
For example:
The issues with the recent Lionel F40PH are a perfect example. Nothing wrong with the basic design, they just stupidly routed a wiring harness over the flywheel and held it in place with cheap tape! Predictably, the tape failed, the wire fell on the spinning flywheel, and the locomotive went up in smoke. I actually watched two of them do that!
The really stupid thing about that example is there was enough slack in the wiring harness to route the wire properly and avoid the whole fiasco!
Then there was the access hatch on the same locomotive, not enough clearance so it was stuck in place so you couldnt' access the configuration switches! Once again, slipshod manufacturing and no QC!
Saving pennies on this manufacturing job cost Lionel big time in repairs and reputation!
-----------------------------------------------------
It takes years to build a reputation and minutes to destroy it.
Since this topic began as a comment on marketing what are the numbers? How many locomotives and/or cars offered in the respective catalogs are produced each year? How many are left on dealers shelves for years? Before we offer opinions on what should or should not be done, is there an upside to this market or has it reached its high water mark? Does Legacy outsell Lionchief? If so is the measure dollars or units moved? What are the minimum number of units required for a production run? I expect nothing produced or planned is done in a vacuum. How do the manufacturers obtain their info and decide how to proceed? Focus groups, noise at train shows, reading various forums? I have nothing to offer the industry leaders, but enjoy the commentary nevertheless. Make something I like and that strikes my interest, I will probably purchase it but how you arrive at that decision is up to the folks who have to run the business.
necrails posted:Since this topic began as a comment on marketing what are the numbers? How many locomotives and/or cars offered in the respective catalogs are produced each year? How many are left on dealers shelves for years? Before we offer opinions on what should or should not be done, is there an upside to this market or has it reached its high water mark? Does Legacy outsell Lionchief? If so is the measure dollars or units moved? What are the minimum number of units required for a production run? I expect nothing produced or planned is done in a vacuum. How do the manufacturers obtain their info and decide how to proceed? Focus groups, noise at train shows, reading various forums? I have nothing to offer the industry leaders, but enjoy the commentary nevertheless. Make something I like and that strikes my interest, I will probably purchase it but how you arrive at that decision is up to the folks who have to run the business.
Great questions and well stated.
Back in 1961 or 62, Lionel touted its big new feature that year as “EVERY TRANSFORMER NOW HAS A BUILT-IN CIRCUIT BREAKER!”
Even then it was less than exciting.
We’ve come a long way. Baby.
necrails posted:Since this topic began as a comment on marketing what are the numbers? How many locomotives and/or cars offered in the respective catalogs are produced each year? How many are left on dealers shelves for years? Before we offer opinions on what should or should not be done, is there an upside to this market or has it reached its high water mark? Does Legacy outsell Lionchief? If so is the measure dollars or units moved? What are the minimum number of units required for a production run? I expect nothing produced or planned is done in a vacuum. How do the manufacturers obtain their info and decide how to proceed? Focus groups, noise at train shows, reading various forums? I have nothing to offer the industry leaders, but enjoy the commentary nevertheless. Make something I like and that strikes my interest, I will probably purchase it but how you arrive at that decision is up to the folks who have to run the business.
All of these questions could only be answered by the manufacturers, and I suspect they're fairly closely guarded numbers in any case. However, I'm pretty sure, while we sometimes question the marketing of various train manufacturers, they're studying this issue fairly carefully when deciding what to produce.
gunrunnerjohn posted:necrails posted:Since this topic began as a comment on marketing what are the numbers? How many locomotives and/or cars offered in the respective catalogs are produced each year? How many are left on dealers shelves for years? Before we offer opinions on what should or should not be done, is there an upside to this market or has it reached its high water mark? Does Legacy outsell Lionchief? If so is the measure dollars or units moved? What are the minimum number of units required for a production run? I expect nothing produced or planned is done in a vacuum. How do the manufacturers obtain their info and decide how to proceed? Focus groups, noise at train shows, reading various forums? I have nothing to offer the industry leaders, but enjoy the commentary nevertheless. Make something I like and that strikes my interest, I will probably purchase it but how you arrive at that decision is up to the folks who have to run the business.
All of these questions could only be answered by the manufacturers, and I suspect they're fairly closely guarded numbers in any case. However, I'm pretty sure, while we sometimes question the marketing of various train manufacturers, they're studying this issue fairly carefully when deciding what to produce.
You are absolutely correct John. While I'm at liberty to say what generally production runs need to be for project minimums for Sunset / 3rd Rail to be successful, I am not privy to exact numbers. Typically our diesels need at least 500 units in all road names combined to move forward while 750 is preferable, brass projects are around 100-125 units, aluminum car sets are typically around 2000 cars total depending on the complexity of the project.
Minimum runs vary by manufacturer and are largely based on what the factory is willing to do. As in all business they are also are based on the fundamentals; raw cost of materials, fabrication or tooling costs, labor to assemble, overhead (management, R&D, and design, etc.), quality control, and a small profit.
To keep the price to the range that someone is willing to pay, compromises are made just like any business model. In the train business where are the places that compromises can be made to reduce cost? There is no need to point out specifics on this thread as anyone who reads on here regularly can clearly see how each manufacturer has to compromise in any of the above areas to create a price point that works for buyer and seller.
New Haven Joe posted:Rusty Traque posted:gunrunnerjohn posted:Mike Wyatt posted:I guess I don't think "Legacy Control" and a lot of the other whiz-bang stuff is really needed, if you have walk-around control like LC. The DCC and Legacy systems add $ 300- 400 to the guy's layout costs.And you're certainly entitled to your opinion.
The purchase of Legacy/TMCC, DCS, DCC systems are one time costs anyway. Once a person has one, he's not going to buy new ones every year.
Technology and features are what's driving the market nowadays and the companies have responded to it. Whether that's good or bad is simply a point of view.
Rusty
I agree that technology is driving not only the model train market but all markets. For example, it is almost impossible to buy any mass produced automobile with a stick transmission or without some sort of radio, heater or air conditioner. My parents first car had a stick and no radio, heater or AC much less seat belts or air bags. I wouldn't buy that car now.
All of my train friends are buying trains with technology installed. Hardly anyone runs just conventional once they have tried command control no matter what the scale.
NH Joe
That is actually an interesting observation. While cars are very different than toy trains (the simple size of the market and that cars in many places are a necessity), the phenomenon you describe is very true. Things like A/C, a radio (not so sure about heat....heat became standard on cars by the time of WWII, and even before that became common.....I doubt any car being sold after WWII lacked heat). Seat belts and air bags don't really count, both of those happened because of the law, without that cars likely wouldn't have them. Back in the day, things like a radio, A/C, automatic transmission, were expensive options that car makers loved, much like the bells and whistles on trains, they cost them relatively little (that 800 dollar option on A/C and another 800 on an automatic transmission were items that cost them maybe 30 bucks to produce), that evolved into de facto standards (I didn't pay attention with the last car I bought, but I believe they still list A/C as an option, and may still list automated transmission as an option), even though it is next to impossible to find a car on a lot that doesn't have both, getting a stick is either non existent on many cars or really rare. Same with radios, you don't see many cars with an AM radio or even AM/FM, most come these days with a stereo radio with at least a CD player...and what happened was as these became common, they jacked up the price so that in a sense everyone was paying an extra 800 for a 30 buck item like A/C. The ultimate of this is the pickup truck and SUV market, that once were utilitarian vehicles, that today are cash cows for the car industry, they both have the kind of markups you see on the command control engines with all the features we are talking about. With cars, very few people want a 'stripper', a car with basic features, they generally want what in the old days they would see as 'luxury features' (not to mention that once expensive options like 4 wheel disk brakes, traction control, ABS, and even AWD/4WD, have become either standard or on a lot of the cars/trucks sold). In trains, I suspect what people have written is true, that especially on 'new blood' into the market, that most want the bells and whistles, at least to some extent. So to use the auto analogy, someone may not want the stereo unit with 500 watts with 14 speakers and the entertainment system, but they want a stereo radio; someone may not want what a vision line engine has, but they do want command control of various functions, maybe not a moveable bell or 4 chuffs per rev or advanced programming of momentum and braking, but still they want that kind of control.
I don't think the idea of 'tiering' is wrong, I think the idea that conventional control is a big part of any strategy is wrong. I would argue that you could have a low end set level, that features basic command control (speed control, maybe a whistle, maybe some basic sounds) that is relatively toy like, not scale or detailed, you could have a semi scale line with more features ( kind of like what MTH does with Rail King ), then have the high end Legacy/top end MTH (whose name escapes me at the moment) that has advanced control and are scale. To me this is a lot more doable and makes more sense to me. I am not saying trains shouldn't run on conventional, and the lower end of the command control universe, the railking and LC+ semi scale universe, would fit what conventional operators may want (and Williams fills some of that too).
I also question whether we even care if trains will last 50 years the way the old post war did. To be honest, the post war phenomenon is something very unlikely to be repeated, part of it was driven by the 'collector' craze that hit the market, the rest of it was those of us born during the baby boom generation who remember the trains when we were kids. Sure, those trains were easy to repair/could be repaired, there are a ton of parts out there, there is no doubt (and I love the PW stuff, too, don't get me wrong), but I don't think many in the generations after us will care that much or would want trains like that, it would be like offering a kid of 25 today a car as a daily driver that had an engine and transmision and brakes and to a younger person with PW trains, it won't be like the nostalgia for old cars (I was at a big car show this weekend at an oldies festival in my town, and I was surprised at the younger people into 50's cars and the culture of it). As far as the command control trains of today, I don't think they are going to show up 20 or 25 years from now as desirable, much the same way my wife pointed out that with the generic styling of today's cars, few cars being made today are going to be at car shows the way a relatively mundane car, like a 50's Chevy Belair or a 60's Ford Fairlane, is today (can you see a Toyota Camry as a 'classic'? I can't, same for most cars outside maybe some of the muscle cars or exotics). If trains exist going into the future it isn't going to be nostalgia, it is going to be because newer generations want them, I think a lot of us are blinded by being in the "boomer" bubble, but to be blunt our generation isn't going to drive the train market much longer, if it is to exist, it is going to have to be Gen X, Gen Y, Gen Moe, Larry and Curly (that is what I tell my son he belongs to *lol*) and that isn't going to be conventional control from a transformer. I think that tiering the products makes sense, and kind of like the car industry, where the huge margin SUV and Pickup truck markets in effect allow for the cheaper sedans and small cars to be produced, the high end/high margin stuff could make the mid tier and cheaper end happen by not having to make much of a margin, if at all, on them.
bigkid posted:If trains exist going into the future it isn't going to be nostalgia, it is going to be because newer generations want them
Amen! The idea that something like Bluetooth is seen as cutting edge in this hobby is a joke. I'm a Gen-X'er, never had trains as a kid, never saw a steam engine in the wild. If it wasn't for cool looking modern detailed models and command control, I would never consider O-gauge. I'm not in this for nostalgia. I'm having fun right now!
bigkid posted:That is actually an interesting observation. While cars are very different than toy trains (the simple size of the market and that cars in many places are a necessity), the phenomenon you describe is very true. Things like A/C, a radio (not so sure about heat....heat became standard on cars by the time of WWII, and even before that became common.....I doubt any car being sold after WWII lacked heat).
Actually, heater delete was an uncommon but not truly rare option (in pick ups, anyway, but also seen in cars) up through the early '70s, at least. Folks whose hobby includes, for example, '67 - '72 Chevy/GMC trucks look out for such things. Somebody just the other day found a pick up from that era whose ONLY option was the heat delete. In other words, it was one item less than bare minimum.
IF GM could do it then selling millions of trucks, why can't Lionel do it now selling hundreds of engines?
palallin posted:IF GM could do it then selling millions of trucks, why can't Lionel do it now selling hundreds of engines?
I'll give an obvious answer. That was then and this is now. How many heater deletes does GM offer today?, How about any delete options, a few but not many and those are usually only on fleet & utility vehicles.
I see where you are trying to go with this. Is it possible to cheapen these things up a bit by replacing highly technical control system with a basic system that gives the most primitive operating method that has been around since the beginning? All the while increasing the reliability because you don't have high end electronics anymore.
Keep in mind that you will still be getting some form of electronics as they won't install a mechanical e-unit but rather an electronic reversing board (something similar to what Williams used back in the day without the sound). That board will need a production & assembly line, R&D and QC. I figure the cost reduction is not that great by replacing a premium sound & control board with a basic control board. Working in the AG & IT industries myself, I see this kinda of situation all the time with items much more expensive than model trains.
Think about the days when MTH Railking engines offer the LocoSound system. At first, it was a cheaper alternative to the more expensive ProtoSound 2 system. As time progressed, the price gap between those two products closed and it just wasn't feasible to keep LocoSound going. I imagine as the price jump to (the more popular) ProtoSound 2 wasn't that great anymore, the demand for LocoSound diminished.
I want the good stuff from the good old days (as I remember it, not as it really was), and I want the good stuff from today! Oh, and can you sell it really cheap, but still make it in America?
Seriously, I think I'm in the minority, as I like the simplicity and ruggedness of the older trains. And guess what - there's a lot of it available at depressed prices.
palallin posted:IF GM could do it then selling millions of trucks, why can't Lionel do it now selling hundreds of engines?
I think you answered your own question! The difference between producing millions of even tens of thousands of a specific model and trim is quite different than selling less than a thousand model locomotives and having multiple options in the mix. Having a bunch of different options for a production run of a thousand is sure to run the cost up for every article.
beachhead2 posted:bigkid posted:If trains exist going into the future it isn't going to be nostalgia, it is going to be because newer generations want them
Amen! The idea that something like Bluetooth is seen as cutting edge in this hobby is a joke. I'm a Gen-X'er, never had trains as a kid, never saw a steam engine in the wild. If it wasn't for cool looking modern detailed models and command control, I would never consider O-gauge. I'm not in this for nostalgia. I'm having fun right now!
Most old timers like me (I'm 66) are delighted to have young adults like you excited about trains. The technological prowess of members of your generation (smart phones, computers, etc.) is terrific.
Although I don't do it yet, and may never do it, I think its fabulous that model trains can be run from smart phones instead of transformers.
Arnold
Arnold, truth be told, I use the Lionel Universal remote as often as my phone/iPad. It's nice to have options though right?
