Z4K tracks switchable to Command?

Don, Chapter 8 of the DCS Instructions posted on the MTH website tells how to run all through the TIU.  Reading it makes my head explode so my solution is to switch my track blocks between Command and Conventional which gives me the best of both worlds.

  See Toggle Track Power.

Don,

    You set up your blocks in the same way as you normally do, however what I like to do is use the side receiver on the Z4K, this sets the Z4K into a different control mode so you can run conventionals in a different way with your DCS hand held remote, then you have both the DCS control and the conventional control and you can also use the set up Susan recommends.  Study Barry's book a little more and I also recommend the OGR Video guide to DCS, so you can visually see how to set things up.

PCRR/Dave

Don,

First you must have a MTH Z-4000 transformer and the remote receiver that plugs into it to use the Z4K tracks. The Z4k tracks vary the voltage of the track the same as using the throttle of the transformer, but remotely using the DCS remote.

Joe Allen,

   I believe he already owns the Z4K, he will need the side receiver and understand how it is used for the DCS hand held remote control.   Definitely a way cool option with the Z4K transformer.  Great stuff for running old conventional trains from the hand held remote.

PCRR/Dave

Thanks to all,

I obviously didn't state my question clearly enough.  I understand how to use the DCS remote to operate a Z4K track for a conventional loco, and how to run a conventional train on same track as command where the command loco is limited by the set variable voltage for the conventional loco that is on same track.  It's the ability to use the very same set of track blocks, at DIFFERENT times, for either a command loco or a conventional loco but not both at the same time, that I'm after.  Perhaps it will clarify if I share one thought I have about how one might do it.  For the track blocks in question (meaning same DCS "blocks" that are divided by center rail gaps as "blocks" for DCS control, i.e. no more than so many track sections connected by pins per power lead from a terminal block), for such "blocks" I'm guessing I could have a switchable power source for such blocks, one side of SPST fed from a variable TIU channel for conventional needs, the other from a fixed TIU channel for command needs.  The center rail of said blocks only gets its voltage from either the variable or the fixed channel as chosen.  Do not need to run command and conventional on same block at once as described in other sections of DCS instructions. Would that solve it, or what would be the best answer?  Hope that adds clarity and not confusion...

Don

Joe, thanks for a second try at my question.  Again, I don't want to run both conventional and command on the same track or blocks at once; I don't need that. What I want is to have command only when needed, and conventional only at other times.  Don't worry about throwing too much at me, this is not too complex.  It's just not covered anywhere, in the way I'm asking, that I've found.  As long as I'm willing to commit two separate TIU channels to the same track (or block) at different times, it seems like switching the TIU source channel to the track with a SPDT switch for each block in question would get it done.  Does that make it clearer?

Don

Susan,

I looked at the page on your SLSPRR site; thanks.  If I understand how you're going about it, it would be similar to the switching between TIU channels I explained in my reply to Joe, above.  Yes?

Don

Don,

I don't see ant reason to change anything to run command or conventional engines unless you want to run PS2 or PS3 engines [[ in conventional ][edit] as they are the only ones that are affected by the DCS watchdog signal that is put out for a few seconds on startup.

You can use the ALL Z4k Tracks command to operate up to 6 handles of the Z-4000 transformers and can be tricked to operate more. That way you can go all over the layout from different power districts without seeing any voltage changes.

Hope this helps.

By power districts I mean different channels run by different transformer handles, just to be clearer.

Don,

That's the beauty of the Z4k tracks as you don't need the Variable TIU channels to operate conventional engines since you are using the transformer to vary voltage.

Ok I forgot about TMCC engines that won't run in conventional unless you unplugged the command base. I haven't got Leagacy yet but I would say the same goes for it.

Don,

The only reason for the toggling between command and conventional would be to run command engines in conventional. I don't see the great advantage doing this. I have dual banana plugs that will plug into each other and can just unplug from the TIU into the one on the transformer to test an engine in conventional without having to change anything settings in the remote. It keeps it simple to take out the TIU for testing a DCS engine which is probably the only reason you would want to do what your suggesting. You can just unhook 1 wire or unplug the command base for testing TMCC engines in conventional.

I don't see the need to use the Z4K tracks at all.  I run two tracks on the variable outputs of the TIU that are programmed in fixed mode.  If I want to run conventional, I select the track on the remote and press the TZV softkey and I'm ready to run conventional.  A power cycle on that channel of the TIU and I'm back to fixed voltage out for command.

John,

One advantage with Z4k tracks for example is that you can use the ALL to run say from one power district to another without having to switch tracks in the remote to gain control of your conventional engine when leaving one power district to another.

Another is you can use the Fixed channels making all available for conventional remote operation.

I have seen a few engines not liking the shark fin wave produced by the TIU variable channels and by using them set at FIXED solved the problem.

Another is you can program the remote to startup the Z-4000 or many from the remote when the transformers are hidden out of sight.

You can run 2 or 3  transformers with the same ID and use them together if using  multiple power districts on the same loop to space out power if needed and the remote with keep them all the same voltage while running conventional. 

It just depends on how you are set up and how and what you want to run.

The only downside is the Amp meter doesn't function when using Z4K tracks.

Don, if you want to run conventional on Z4K tracks, if you want to run the locos via the remote, the only way is to get the Z4k receiver that plugs into the Z4000, if you can find one.  Otherwise, you'll have to use the Z4000's (or other transformer's) handles.

RJR,

The Z-4000 Remote Commander remote will also run the Z-4000 transformers as they were the first to do so before DCS was available and are available again.

Product # 40-4001 remote & receiver

I have one and it works fine but you can do more with the DCS remote.

Joe, that's the unit I refer to as the Z4k receiver.  It used to be available separately without its own remote, and can be operated form the DCS remote.  I did not know it is again available, although apparently now you must also bear the cost of its remote.

I know there may be advantages to the Z4K tracks, but you don't need them to have conventional control using the DCS remote, that was my point.

Correct, unless the VARIABLEs are already in use.

RJR,
I would imagine MTH will sell the receiver separately again in the near future. MTH hadn't made the Z-44000 remotes for sometime and there became a demand for them. I had mine before DCS and loved it to run my Lionel PW engines.

You see them separately on eBay from time to time.

I bought my receiver years ago, when it was available separately.  It has performed flawlessly ever since, with never an issue.  Given the price of Lionel's new ZW.  A Z4000 with the receiver is cheaper and gives you walkaround control of conventional

Got to shovel snow from my door dag nab it!!

Not that much yet here in Northern VA.  Maybe 3", but walks were warm from high 50's yesterday. 

It got cold last night so it's fluffy and blowing sideways here and blowing it up against my storm door so I can't get out as I live out in the open farm land. Then I have to go out the garage door or out the back door to get out. A few years back I had the wind blow the snow 6 foot high against it. It took a while to dig that all out of the way. LOL  

Probably got 3 to 4 inches so far and it's 19 degrees and 15 mph wind in south Jersey

Very helpful, guys, now that the discussion got busier! Using the added features of the DCS remote is my preference. I have some old Z4000 remote sets, and they are fine, but prefer to use one remote for all needs.  Don't care whether I use "Z4K" tracks on fixed channels, or use variable channels, as long as I can use the DCS remote and as long as the various old Pullmor or open frame motors, original ProtoSound locos (non-command) and newer conventional can motor/electronic reverse unit locos will all run well when the selected set of blocks is switched to the "conventional" option.  Large, complex layout with plan for prototypical sequence timetable operations, so choosing control mode for the blocks needed must be easy.  Susan hasn't replied for a day or two, but her website photos look like she may be doing the closest thing to what I'm trying to ask for of any of the replies so far.

Do NOT envy you with the deep snow your current weather.  The mild and wet Pacific Northwest seems pretty good right now, here.  Reminds me not to complain about the weather.

Luckily, not too much snow here in Northern VA.

Maybe you missed one point about the old Z4k receivers.  One DCS remote will operate several of them and there is no need to use the transmitter that may have come with the receivers. 

Also, there is no need to switch any block to run DCS, Pulmor, conventional can--ancient E-units or electronic reverse units.  I run them all on my rather large layout and never change any connections.  Just use TRK to control voltage and ENG to control DCS locos.  Can't get any simpler

   Susan's wiring setup is close to what we use at club but we use a 4pdt toggle switch to switch both hot and ground to either route power straight though to the track or switched to route power through the TIU.

   Run both wires from your transformer to one pair of the center contacts of the 4pdt switch. Run track wires to the other pair of center contacts. Now wire the 2 lower contacts below the transformer input wire to the other 2 lower contacts below the track wire contacts. The upper contacts above the transformer contacts will be wired to the TIU input terminals and other 2 upper contacts will be wired to the TIU output terminals. Make sure you keep the red hot side of the transformer wired to the red input on the TIU and the red output wired to switch to the center rail track feed.

   When the 4pdt toggle is switched up the power will feed from transformer thru TIU and out to track. When the toggle switched down the power will feed straight to the track bypassing the TIU altogether.

   The reason we did this is we have some folks who are technically challenged and this way they can run anything in conventional mode with the flip of a switch.

To run TMCC engines in conventional you must turn off the power strip that powers the TMCC Command base.  

   One other advantage we found was if a Proto2 engine has a low battery it will sometimes not add to the DCS remote. In this case with a flip of the toggle you can switch to Conventional and run the engine for several minutes to bring the battery up enough that it will then add to the remote once the toggle is flipped back up to the TIU DCS position.

The Z4K remote transmitter handles up to three Z4000 receivers, there's a selection switch on the transmitter.

Well, you can use the remote to turn off the DCS signal to run your PS2 & PS3 engines in conventional easily by going to:

Menu

System

DCS setup

Here you can turn off the signal and besides setting the Variable channels to Fixed and back.

I don't see the reason to do any extra wiring and switches once you learn how to use the remote to do the same thing. It's not really that hard to do. I don't like having extra connections that's not necessary.

I doubt you are going to use this feature that much anyway once setup and if anyone forgets just come back here for help.

Low of 3 degrees and calm this morning. I plowed out the farm lane late yesterday as the wind blow the dry snow all day into 2 to 3 foot drifts. Hard to tell how much we got as it blew all over but I heard Philly got 13 inches.

GRJ, I said the "DCS remote."  I didn't refer to the Z4k transmitter, which is limited to 3 receivers.  I don't know what the limit on the number of tracks is on a DCS remote.

The DCS remote and the Z-4000 remote will operate 3 Z-4000 transformers separately. But you can give the same the same address to multiple transformers to operate them in unison.

You still have 2 more addresses available to run 9 total, but I don't know if there is a limit.

Ex.  3 Z-4000's with address Z4K1 will response all together the same as only one does. If programmed as Track 1 to operate left handle, then it will operate all 3 left handles remotely and simultaneously. This works on both remotes.

Of course this is excluding the ALL command available with your DCS remote which can run all the handles of the Z-4000 in unison.

Thanks for the continued thoughtful help.  I need to use this and figure how to most conveniently change a set of blocks (some mainline, some passenger terminal mini-blocks through throat or platform tracks), each of them from its "star wired" 18v power to variable voltage.  This would usually be a route out or back from a passenger terminal stub track (there are 8 of them) through the switchwork (already wired in mini-blocks, so concept not hard) out of terminal throat to a mainline track.  Then when the next command train needs those same blocks, be able to restore 18v for that.  A mainline could remain "conventional" while terminal blocks could be switched to 18v for next train that is command and lead it to a mainline that is on 18v as well, as the conventional train continues on the mainline already set for variable voltage.  Could make the switch at panel/TIU area for each block, I guess, but would prefer to have something like a set of relays (diodes could allow more than one source for DC relay coil current without back-feed) that would make the switch according to the pathway needed for "train X" with one touch of a panel switch, or remote if it can function for this (?)  A bit like a diode switch matrix for our DC two rail friends, only this would be power switching relays instead of switch motors.  Might only need to have or three platform tracks capable of the switch and use those for conventional trains, but the throat trackage mini-blocks all would have to be switchable--there are four double slips and a number of ordinary switches to allow parallel paths for two trains or a train and a switch job at once.  For you who've been playing with this a lot longer, how would you suggest doing it?

cnwdon.  One of the issues when running both conventional and command at the same time on the same layout is that conventionals may run too fast at the voltage required for command locos.  On my layout, I can solve this by putting heavier trains on the conventional.  On a club layout, where each operator understandably want to do his/her own thing on train consists, this may present an administrative issue.

Having a separate power supply for each block could be expensive, but one possibility is to have rheostats on each block that would permit adding a small (maybe 5 ohms max???) resistance to drop voltage.  Of course, this would preclude wireless walkaround control.  If wirless not absolutely needed, one could wire up blocks to normally closed jacks, in whioch the insertion of a plug inserts into the circuit, in series, a box with a rheostat and a NC pushbotton for reverse control.  You could then run both DCS and conventional at the same time, in close proximity.

As I stated Some members are really technically challenged. No reason to even pick up the remote to run conventional yet alone scroll through the menu to figure out what the last person had done. Flip the switch and you are ready to go. The little bit of extra wiring didn't hurt the signal either. Mostly all 10's on the entire layout.

Forest, if you use the DCS remote to control conventional, enjoyment increases exponentially, because instead of being tied to a control panel, you can go where the action is.  I was using a DCS system to run conventional for a long time before I got a PS2 loco.

See Susan's "toggle track power" page, link above.  Using something like a "relay matrix" of NO or NC (DC for relay coils, diode matrix, able to choose a track path from my own menu choices on a central panel when needed) to do what Susan is doing seems closest to what I'm after.  It sounds like no one has quite applied all of this in that way here?

Don,

I was thinking you wanted to run command engines separately from the conventional ones with the ability to switch the layout over from one to the other.

 Trying to run them together like you are attempting to do is a recipe for disaster in my opinion. Just forgetting to drop the voltage down on one power district and you will have a conventional engine taking off at full speed.

I would toggle off all engines on sidings and only bring out command engines when voltage is set at 18 or conventional when you want variable voltage.

I have 3 loops that are separated and can run conventional on one while running command on the others. I can use all loops with conventional engines but I clear them of command ones first. It's  really too much trouble trying to run both types together at the same time on the same tracks. I have only run both types together on one loop using 2 remotes to keep them apart. One for the DCS engine and one for the Z4K track.

I tinkered with command and conventional on the same tracks to at least get a feel for how it works out.  I can't imagine doing this for any length of time and being happy with the results.

First off, if you run TMCC/Legacy, every  conventional direction change would result in the command engine stopping until you restarted it, not exactly a desirable situation.  PS2-3 engines are a bit more forgiving, but they need decent voltage on the tracks, so many conventional engines on the same tracks would be bookin' along at a pretty high rate of speed.  When you slow down the conventional engine, the PS2-3 engines will either stall or drop-out and start to shutdown.

I guess everyone's different, but I can't imagine wanting to do this.

Your observations are correct, GRJ, it's not the most pleasureable activity, mostly because of controlling relative speed.  However, if one is engaging in switching movements, it is acceptable.  The power break for conventional direction change is shorter than the cutoff time for PS2 with a good battery; not having Lionel command control, I can't speak to it.  I haven't had stopped command locos drop out from low voltage, but that could be because command is so much better that I rarely use conventional.  As I've said elsewhere, I've converted all my can-motored locos (except a Williams RDC 3-car set that I'm thinking of selling) to PS2.