Z4K tracks switchable to Command?

Guys, I still haven't gotten my point across.  The conventional trains will operate only in blocks whose center rail feed has been temporarily switched from the usual 18v TIU source to a variable voltage source.  The center rail gaps will prevent the 18v from getting to those blocks while they are switched to the other source.  Nothing to do with running command and conventional in the same track block at once!  NO desire to do that!

Susan's web page (link above) may help if this isn't "computing" in mere words.

Don

Seems you want something like cab control we used to have using double pole, double throw,  center off toggles.   I'm  thinking back to the 50s and my trusty KW..

I guess it depends what you call a dcs block  created  on a tiu channel. They're really not blocks. Just because the center rail pin is insulated power still gets to each section by the paired wires from the terminal strip. I think I just lost myself on this one...... The purpose of the insulating pin  is digital rather than power wise.

Don,

I saw the toggle switch setup on Susan's web page. Just by switching the toggle you will still see 18 volts at the track, so I can't see the valve of this besides bypassing the TIU that's using Passive mode (no power going through the TIU) and no use of the Variable tracks which you don't need using Z4K tracks. In Passive mode the TIU is just communicating with the DCS engines and won't stop conventional only engines from running either way its used.

Now if you what to toggle to another transformer to instantly change voltage from 18 to zero,  that I think could be setup to work. No need to worry about having the TIU on line for conventional only engines. This would require 2 transformers for each power district and could be setup using Z4K tracks to run all power districts to vary the voltage for the conventional engines. You could use Lionel bricks for the Command engines and use Z-4000 transformers for the conventional ones.

Oh by the way, the E-STOP on the DCS remote won't work when using Passive mode.

It is a block. It just does not have a off/on switch.

Now we're on the same page.  Imagine for the sake of discussion that each set of important blocks has one dedicated Variable TIU output, and one fixed, and the center rail power is switchable between the 18v of the fixed output and the variable output of the Variable.  (The outside rails are a common ground).  All control is by the DCS remote.  Understanding that stupidity must be avoided (don't let a loco's rollers go to where they bridge those blocks, don't forget a loco left somewhere that will rocket off with a switch back to Fixed, etc.)  this is the rough plan I'm asking about.

Don

Don,

You realize you can run conventional & command engines on the same track so you don't have to change from variable to fixed channels to run them?

I can vary the voltage on Z4K tracks or Variable channels to run the conventional engines and just roll up the voltage to 18 to run command as long as I leave the DCS signal turned on and the TMCC base on.

As I am setup with Z4K tracks and variable channels set at Fixed so voltage is passed straight though just like the FIXED channels, I just use those to run both Command & conventional. 

To run command and have 18 volts on all tracks:

TR button

use the ALL softkey S1

Z4K tracks press thumbwheel

TSV  softkey S1   (18 volts)

TZV  softkey S2   (0 volts)

Now to run conventional after using the TZV softkey to get the track volts to zero, I must use each Z4K track individually to roll up the voltage as the ALL goes to 18 volts immediately when trying to scroll the voltage up. I can roll the voltage down, but if it goes to zero, one click up and it's back to 18 volts ( I forgot it works this way) (It would be great if you could set the startup voltage on the 'ALL' the same as individual Z4k tracks)

The way I operate more than one Z4K track simultaneously is by programming 2, 3 or more Z-4000 transformers with the same address. Then the left handles will operate simultaneously and the right ones will operate the same when they are addressed. It makes it easy to run through different power districts at the same voltage. I set the Start voltage at 8 volts and the Maximum 18. My PW Lionel and PS1 engines which I have work great at these settings.

To the anyone out there putting down the Z-4000, try doing the above with your bricks.

As long as my stub tracks contain only engines that require no more than than 4 amps, I can use an AIU to power them up with the remote with a 4 amp fuse to protect the AIU relays.

I would wire the stub tracks into the same terminal block as the immediate track it leads into to make it easy to get conventional engines off of their sidings. I just have to watch having too many sidings powered to go over the 10 amp limit.

After powering a siding and a PS2 or PS3 engine starts up in conventional, just press the START UP on the remote gets it in DCS mode.

Hope this page helps.

Thank you, Joe, for that thorough description.  If I'm not worried about the extra cost for more TIU's, am I right to think this:  It seems simpler (to me, anyway) to be able to switch the needed blocks from a fixed to a variable output (dedicated to that set of blocks) so I can just run with the DCS remote without the steps you describe above.  Does that make sense?

I think the easiest way would be to use 2 DCS remotes. One for running the tracks and one for DCS and TMCC engines.  

Joe, If one doesn't care about the extra cost for TIUs, then why not by more and don't use Z4K tracks?  Or buy Z4k receivers?  However, if someone wants to introduce unnecessary complexity, it's their railroad to build as they wish.

The only reason I even post in this thread is because I fear that many will get the impression that there are many things that must be done before conventional can be run on a DCS layout.

RJR,

You can run Variable and Command engines with the variable channels also. But you can't synchronize power districts as easy as using Z4K tracks and multiple Z-4000 transformers as I described above. There is really no need to change from variable to fixed tracks to run either command or conventional as you only need to scroll up or down to the proper voltage you need anyway.

If you are only running on one power district, no problem. But say you are running through multiple power districts, then using Z4K tracks and multiply Z-4000 transformers makes running conventional much easier than trying to adjust voltage as you go from one power district to another.

Don originally ask about using the Z4K tracks at the start of this tread and they operate the Z-4000 handles remotely eliminating the need for the TIU having Variable channels and they can be set at FIXED and never need to be changed back to run conventional engines.

Joe, my experience with conventional is that one has to stand next to the voltage control anyway, unless your layout is flat.  My first multi-district layout would have been 1950, when I got my 2nd loco.  Crossing the district line never was a real problem; true, it might call for prompt attention, or an E-unit would drop out if district was powered off, but that was more an inconvenience---sort of like throwing a toggle depending on loco.

Problem with changing all tracks at once would be if you run multiple trains.  On my current layout, built before DCS, I would often run 4 (or more) trains at once, feeding differing voltages to each, and varying that voltage on grades.  It did keep me busy due to grades, or to having multiple trains in same district.

RJR,

I see your point. I have three separate level main lines that are connected with double crossovers. The Z4K tracks make it easy to go from one to the other. Once I get the engine where I want it, I can just run the loop by itself and use the other 2 with either command or conventional if I want. I also have the Z-4000 remote and can use it to control the throttle of the Z-4000 transformer.

I don't want to run any engine on grades that you can push as I had a bad experience with my first small permanent layout when I was a kid. I had trouble with them running away when pulling 10 cars. At the bottom of the grade was a 031 curve and once it started downgrade, it kept speeding up even with the throttle off. You can guess what happened. It wasn't good.

Joe, the value of DCS is readily apparent on a layout with grades, as the locos hold a constant speed up or down grade.  I remember those old E-unit-equipped Lionel locos with side frame motors did tend to coast down hills.  I still have 4 or 5 and except for the pre-war loco, they don't get used.

About 1951 I built a layout with grades.  One "power district" was a simple loop around a 12x8 layout, but the other went around twice, going up and over itself.  The 2 level parts were separate blocks, as were the two grade stretches (4 blocks in all.  Between the transformer and each of the level blocks were a toggle switch and about 12" of a single copper wire strand that I had unwound from 18-gauge lamp cord.  This provided a slightly reduced voltage on the level stretches.  Between the transformer and each of the 2 grades were a toggle switch and about 18" of that strand, providing an even lower voltage to those portions.  There was also a single pole double throw switch, the center of which was fed from the transformer, and each pole of which went to the track end of an 18" strand.  I would throw the switch depending on which direction I wanted to run.

Worked great; no need to touch throttles.  Periodically the strands would get brittle and break, especially after a short, but they were easy to replace.

Of course, Lionel has also had speed control for a long time, just not on every product.

I think Lionel came out with their cruise control a coupler of years later if I remember.

All helps the thought process. Had not considered issue of TIU power districts.  I would want to connect a conventional loco via SPDT switches or switches and relays to a single Variable output of a single TIU, instead of whichever TIU they would serve in Command mode.  Since all outside rails are to the same common ground, the electrons and locos won't care that a track normally on TIU "B" for Command is temporarily on the Variable channel of TIU "A" for a conventional train.  Some complexity to the wiring to get the minimum number of electrical switch throws to establish a route.  At least two, one for chosen main and one for chosen path in/out of terminal, using relays to make the actual block electrical changes for each of those two.  It's the wiring/relay complexity that may yet lead me to invest $$ in command conversions rather than "cubic time" in wiring.

Once you go command, it's very hard to go back.

I still like to run my conventional engines and do so without any problems. I just keep them separated from the command ones.

I use the same tracks to run both with a bare minimum of wiring.