ZW circuit breaker

Someone earlier had posted that he used a Malibu 12 volt transformer for accessories, which I thought was a great idea.  The only problem with that is that my girder bridge and a flashing window light in an illuminated building need 15-16 volts to operate correctly.  I suppose I could put the lower power requiring accessories on the malibu, and put the higher ones by themselves on an inner circuit of the ZW, if I can get one that works.

No loose cloth insulation on the resistance wires RJR? I think that's what he's seeing.

My Z, mostly cloth, looks great inside! My 1033's wires are dry rotting fast now. Those beakers use a riveted connection prone to carbon fouling, heat damage, and corrosion. Once on the fritz its downhill fast.

     I don't fully disagree with that lighting brick, but it wouldn't necessarily fly into common use. Smaller, "leftover", but newer, train transformers; small aftermarket (MRC comes to mind); and large wall warts have the "pretty" market covered. And a small, fixed voltage, industrial transformer is a very cheap alternative that can be mounted out of sight, requiring only a switch & cord. A Lionel brick by itself?

 The 1990's grey controller, and early black brick Lionel(MW?) goes for quite low prices and would light 40w up to 80w depending on which brick it has. I used the 80w brick alone for a while. Supply overkill for long term, but why not if you have plans to grow!

Bob,

If you do "start over" and want to acquire another ZW, I highly recommend og fan (he has posted above in this thread). I bought a refurbished ZW from him earlier this year and am totally satisfied. He does good work and offers them to forum members at a very reasonable price (you won't have to spend $250-300).

His email is in his profile.

Thanks John, that's really helpful.

Right now I'm running both trains and no problems. My isolated outside loop has a loco and the 3 illuminated modern passenger cars on my 1950's 60 watt type 1053 . My 1033 fixed 16v tap is powering the lights which are all on, and the ZW is powering a single locomotive on the center loop. I've got 3 transformers on my control board! Not what I expected when I bought the zw, but at least the trains are going. Now I have to figure out how to power the 5 O22's which I have taken off circuit. Who knows I might be able to put those back on the track circuit with the ZW  without blowing it again.  I'm gonna try and return this ZW  to the Ebay seller and get one from og fan. I appreciate all your guy's help.

If you are going to make a claim, it doesn't really belong to you. Do not mess with the internals other than to prod lightly to check for a solid connection! A sorry looking connection, may be solid, and fine. I think the solder used in these had a slightly higher melting point, or modern stuff is just better flowing, I'm not real sure.

Also confirming 100% the issue isn't elsewhere quickly would be only fair. We have only guessed at your draws not measured. 

You seem to have a good mind for process of elimination. Logic paths are the key to electronics.  Should you persue this yourself, and I think you can do this, the breaker is normally low, on the bottom, buried a little near the handle, under the wires from it.

If its going bad it will get worse with use. Weak connections anywhere, even on the track, increase the current draw, hastening this*.

*since you do have an ohm meter, separating, and disconnecting a loop in one spot to create "straight lines" of rail , then you can try to read for resistance, or voltage drop, on the rails. It wont spot every weak spot through resistance measures. Meter currents flow pretty easy, a high amp draw, or voltage drops, reveal weak points better in intermediate situations.

Bob, the 022 switches don't draw power, except momentarily when activated, except for the bulbs, which are 0.15 amp according to the bulb chart.  I recall there are direct replacement LEDs for these.

I really think the amp meter, or 10amp fuse test is needed to be fair here. I can mail you an inline fuse holder & various fuses if you like. Having recently received a gift to help me, it would only be "paying it fwd".

Loading the 1033 to its limit, and comparing that to the ZW would give another guess as to what's being drawn, but not exactly great for the 1033. A bit off topic but on the 1033 breaker it is had exposed brass arms & points, and is adjustable by a "painted to set" screw on the arms tip (ZW has a better glued adj.screw if you look on the case in the pic. above) The ease of 1033 access allows adjustment, which is overdone by some after cleaning of corrosion etc. The fuse method(I like slow blow fuses here) is the right way to set one without a meter, but moving to a modern breaker there if yours doesn't look so hot is a good idea too. Take a peak inside at yours someday.(handles off, screws out. lift).

Another simple method for spotting some weak connections is total darkness, and a varying load.

Weak connections will often spark. Small, but bright, blue/green/white flashes, and streaks occur as the flows catch, and release, jumping through, and around any carbon build ups. (This "spark jump" alone requires additional, often full amperage.)

 Rollers on lighted cars/tenders/etc. with tweaked pickup wire tabs, or even lose broken wires, can rub the trucks body intermediately causing an uncounted, often unnoticed system draw.

BOB,  you have been given some great advise here.  DONT  do anything to it just yet. first, see if seller will take it back.  if that fails, contact me and i will 'WALK YOU THRU' the easy process of replacing the breaker.  or  i can provide you with a quality refurb. unit.    see a prior post from a member with pix showing the breaker.  good luck,  paul.

That's a very kind offer. Thank you! But I spotted a well reviewed clamp ammeter on Amazon for about $23 and I'm thinking of getting it to solve the mystery. Does it just go on the power output wires? How would you measure the amperage of the multiple connections present when the breaker trips? Do you think I'd ever use this meter again?

Also, I do think the local train guru would test the breaker capacity free of charge if I brought it in and told him I didn't want it worked on (yet).

Thanks a lot Paul. That's great.

This thread has become way overblown,  You don't have too much equipment on the ZW by a long shot. Just jumper across the circuit breaker and load test it with your layout.

It makes no sense to return the transformer or undo the deal just for a CB issue. Isn't there anyone nearby this fellow who can help him out and swap out the breaker for him? I'd do it in a heartbeat.

Agreed,  Rob ,  we have  361 forum members in  illinois   cant  SOMEBODY local help bob out ?? 

Hi Rob, I know what you're saying but I have learned a lot from all the replies, and have appreciated every one. I don't want to be a bother, but I do want to learn. And I think a lot of the guys enjoy applying their knowledge to help newbies solve their problems. And I AM learning a lot from all you guys. even tho the definitive answer is to check the amps I'm pulling when the zw blows. I'd have done that if I had an ammeter handy. You are saying I should put the ammeter ( that I am thinking of buying) on the jumper across the breaker (if and when I can locate it) to check the total load? Sure I could've taken it to the local guy for a thorough testing, but then I wouldn't have learned as much as I did on this thread. I may still do that, but my DIY attitude keeps me plugging for answers. Again thanks to all.

My immediate goal is to find out if the transformer is defective, and if so would it be better to have it fixed or try to return it. For fun I am attaching a couple photo's of the innards of this thing.

quote:

It makes no sense to return the transformer or undo the deal just for a CB issue. Isn't there anyone nearby this fellow who can help him out and swap out the breaker for him? I'd do it in a heartbeat

But the original poster writes that the inside of the transformer shows sloppy workmanship.

If he wants to fix  and keep it, that is certainly his choice.

If so, I suggest an A.C. leakage test.

I would also do what Lionel called a "Watt loss test.

Lionel's watt loss test puts a sixty watt bulb in series with the transformer under no load. The bulb should not light.

As an experiment, short out a pair of teminals and slowly turn up the control handle. The 60 watt bulb will get brighter and brigher.

Here is an Ebay lot consisting of the earlier style ZW circuit breaker. It is mounted in the bottom of the plasic case.

The posted pics look like entirely normal 1940's-1950's ZW assembly & workmanship, right down to the solder joint and fraying wire loom covering. It seems he just may not have known what to expect with the cover off.

Bob, FYI.  If you get a clamp on ammeter, it probably will be too large to clamp over any wires in the transformer.  A clamp only works if you run a single side of the AC line through it.  I would suggest tying all your U's into a single wire and clamping over that.  If you get a non-clamp ammeter, be sure it can read AC amps; many only read DC.  You'll have to connect it externally (unless you want to unsolder internal breaker and have the transformer open while it's powered up)  and feed current of all U's through it

I missed the pictures. I was going on the written description.

Sometime I have a hard time identifying parts in pictures. I think I have the circuit breaker circled in red:

Hello Bob. A safe, reliable transformer is essential for running trains, and more importantly, household safety. Our forum is supported by many dealers and repair guys. Buy a new or professionally rebuilt transformer from one of them.  It'll be money well spent.  

Then, keep track of the load on the transformer with an inexpensive clamp on meter so that you don't overload it.  Any electrical device or system that is continuously operated at or near its maximum current rating ( i.e. breakers, household circuits, etc.) will, in the long run, suffer some damage that will impair their operation. 

Yep CW and Rob are both right. I did not know what to expect under the hood. Honestly tho the solder joints don't look professionally done, but to follow up and maybe close this thread, I went to my local train expert's store. He did not have an ammeter, and he thought the zw needed a rectifier since there was a problem with the horn activation on the left side. Other than that (and a would be $100 repair bill) he said that it looked like your average zw inside, including that loose cloth insulation at the top, and that it would make a good transformer if the repairs are done. However he also said by just listening to the humm that he thought it was too loud and maybe short of power. I guess you get what you pay for, which in this case was nothing. He sells refurbished zw's for $295 tho since I've spent some money there he said he'd sell one to me for 250. His advice (of course) was to send it back and buy a reliable and ready to go  model from him.  Anyway I don't want to wear out my welcome on this board, but I do want to say you guys have a fantastic brain trust going here, and I feel very grateful to have found and have a chance to tap into it. All I can say really, and keep saying, is thanks to all who have responded with their help!

yep the train guy said what you circled is indeed the CB. Thanks.

I hate to tell you this, but your local guy is being too hard on this ZW - I've seen  a lot worse - it's really not a bad looking transformer at all. No signs of abuse or overheating, and the noise issue is a non-issue(this is due to the way they were constructed - they were later built with a modified laminations assembly to speed assembly and resulted in a quieter unit). The fact that it appears original & unmodified is a plus, and with a few maintenance tweeks will serve you for a very long time.

If he really doesn't have a ammeter(he may have just been telling you this), you can't really rely on his "expertise" in evaluating and selling any used equipment, let alone transformers.

Yes I agree with you. I thought he was going to say "OMG what a piece of #$%@", but I think he actually saw it as an average  ZW, despite what he recommended. I really think he doesn't use an ammeter. He said the way he'd test the breaker is to compare it's performance with a known good ZW on the same layout. He's knowledgeable about a lot of things, but I agree he's not my man. IF I replace this thing it won't be from him. but I have to do something because it's really not usable now and I still don't know for sure if it's the CB.  But we've already been through that so I leave it rest. I will see if I can implement some of the testing ideas I've been given here.

Bob, to bring the issue to a conclusion, real cheaply:  Solder a jumper across the CB terminals.  Put an in-line 10-amp fuse in the combined U leads.  If the fuse blows, there's a problem on the layout.  If it doesn't, the CB is bad, so leave it with the soldered jumper and always have an external 10-amp fus or breaker in the combined U lead.

Again,  adcx rob is correct,  looks all normal to me  but still has the old rect. discs. but it looks clean.  also , cw burfle is correct he has circled the breaker !!

Now RJR that sounds like something I could accomplish, and a great idea, but explain to me  about the U leads. Are you saying all the "common" leads that the layout brings to the common terminals should be connected together, along with with one (heavier guage?) wire going from them to just one (any one in particular?) of the transformer's common terminals? Can I do that? And the wires from the board that come off the A B C D terminals stay where they are??

Just my opinion: DO NOT DISABLE THE INTERNAL CIRCUIT BREAKER.

Somewhere down the line, someone else will wind up with that modified transformer, which without it's internal circuit breaker, could be dangerous.  Or a member of your own family might decide to hook it up according to readily available official Lionel instructions, leaving the setup without any overload protection.

quote:

Again,  adcx rob is correct,  looks all normal to me  but still has the old rect. discs. but it looks clean.  also , cw burfle is correct he has circled the breaker !!

Those old rectifer disks seem to work fine on postwar trains. I have only run across a few that have needed replacing.  How well they work on Modern era trains may be an entirely different matter. I beleive the 4090, which was made in the 1970's still had a rectifier disk.

That is an excellent point CW. If I jump the breaker and leave the external fuse, I will be sure to remove the jumper connection before retiring the transformer. I live alone so no one else would set it up dangerously. And of course if it does turn out to be a breaker problem, that will be replaced and there will be no jumper. Maybe I'll put a warning sticker on it somewhere too indicating not to be operated without an external 10  amp fuse, just in case I don't wake up one day.

On the rectifier disk, both my trains are vintage postwar and I believe the zw worked the horn on my layout satisfactorily for both.

CW raises a good point, that the transformer may pass into the hands of others.  

My use of the word "cheaply" referred to pinpointing the problem, not a permanent cure.  I agree that a permanent solution should not be picked solely on cost.

Inside the ZW, the 4 U terminals are rivetted into a copper buss bar.  So they are all connected together.  But the rivets contact gets poor.  For the test, and for a permanent backup short protection, I'd tie all U terminals together externally, on one terminal of a breaker or fuse, and tie all output leads to the layout, on the other fuse or breaker terminal.

Happy pappy I appreciate your comment and concerns.  Believe me I haven't gone cheap on this project, but on the other hand I don't want to spend more than I have to. This transformer supposedly will be ok once it is fixed. If it can be fixed cheaply by testing it and then either replacing the breaker or troubleshooting the layout, I will have paid about 160 instead of 300 for my zw. Thanks again.

Electricians morality really says fix it, or cut the cord inside. I would bring the safety issue up as well, to have that guy maybe resell as is? Might he agree to pay for the modern breaker swap to avoid all this.(Pay yourself! ha ha ha!)

Exactly, and because we enjoy it, it's no bother. Half these guys just want to see you finish "the puzzle" too.

There's Waldo! Nice eagle eye. Hard time, Who you kiddin'?, The only hard time is the one you give us.   

It's much easier for me to recongize parts in three dimensions.

Bob: if you can solder a jumper across the circult breaker terminals, you should be able to unsolder the wires connected to it, and solder a new one in it's place. Train Tender gets eight dollars for a replacement breaker (ZW-232R). It looks a little different, but I am certain it fits. Mr. Kane is reliable.

As I posted before, this is a basic safety issue.

Since the board does not monitor repair suggestions, sometimes I think that threads on transformer repair should be banned, as are discussions on alternate smoke fluids. A bad repair of a model train might waste money, but is very unlikely to cause physical harm or property damage. Transformers are another matter.

OK CW I understand your concern. Before I modify the ZW in any way, and while there's still a chance I may return it, I won't solder anything. I'm thinking I'll just clip a jumper across the breaker temporarily, start adding back load to the ZW, and watch the amps on a clamp meter placed over the jumper.  I will see if my neighbor has one once people start waking up this morning, and if not, I will order one from Amazon. They've got it for about $25. Should be worth it in the long haul. If it is a weak CB that's tripping below 10 amps, I will replace it or have it replaced.

Thank you.

Bob, clipping a clamp-on across the breaker won't work for a test, because the breaker will still be conducting power, in parallel to the jumper.  If you want to change the cb without bothering to see if its a layout problem, follow cw's advice and get one from Train Tender.

Personally, I would not replace the breaker without making extensive tests to be surer that the cb is bad, and it is not out on the layout or, not probable but possible, that a prior owner or "tech" hasn't done something that is causing an internal short.  Best way to test for latter would be to unsolder at least one cb terminal, connect a jumper across the terminals it was soldered to, and use either a clamp on or regular AC ammeter.  If no external load, current shouldbe 0.

CW, I disagree with you on banning posts about transformer repair.  Many persons will strike out on their own, or go to someone who claims to be knowledgeable, like the LHS who said transformer wasIinadequate.  Better to use the forum, where bad advice, or as is more probable, unclear advice, will becquickly flagged by another.  We all know what wevintend to say, and read our writings accordingly.  But others may interpret our words differently.

(Please excuse typos.  Keys on tablet are close)

Well shows you what I know about electricity. Could I measure amps over that group of common wires you were talking about?

Bob, see my just-edited post.  Yes, you can, but it won't detect any internal short, the existence of which is highly improbable but possible.