ZW-L Failure. I was afraid this would happen.

What load & what meter are you testing this with?

ADCX Rob posted:

What load & what meter are you testing this with?

Load: trains running around on their own with the throttle turned off

Meter: regular voltmeter. I realize it doesn’t measure chopped waves accurately. But that’s not the issue. 

 Actually, have 2 of them...flawless so fair. So, like a blown output - triac. The way the old power masters use to fail.

I have a ZW-L.  No problems.

What you describe is like a MTH Z-4000 - I had two and got rid of them.

So.  I'll go back and run my trains without a problem on my  ZW-L.

Is the meter for that channel lit or is the red light on?  I found the manual online and it describes on page 5 the wattage limiting and shorts.

Doug

This is why club layouts use z4000s and not the zwl,  they dont hold up. None of the zw remakes held up. The old zw which isn't that powerful keeps kicking though!! It's not any brands fault it's just electronic devices.  

trnluvr posted:

Is the meter for that channel lit or is the red light on?  I found the manual online and it describes on page 5 the wattage limiting and shorts.

Doug

Yes, the meter for the A-U channel is lit. Power comes out with the throttle off and while the meter reads 0 volts.  Real power, not phantom. The circuit protection has failed on this channel also. No red light. No fold-back, no circuit breaker function. So much for their “triple protection”. Am I surprised? No. After all, the Titanic sank with 16 watertight compartments. BTW, if you get a short, there is a loud pop and clould of acrid smoke. I have removed the transformer from my layout. It is not in a safe condition to operate. 

The forum sponsor I purchased it from, Nassau Hobbies, sent me a one line email suggesting that I call Lionel. With their sale complete, their hands are washed of it.  Note to self for future reference. Buyer beware. 

No issues with my ZW-L's.  Very unfortunate and I hope you get it resolved

I don’t know that it’s a buyer beware scenario. Lionel has sold quite a few of those and you don’t hear much about them failing. From what I hear, those are really nice transformers and things happen. The world is not a perfect place. Consider yourself blessed that your biggest problem is your expensive toy broke.  It is still under warranty so give Lionel a call, get an RMA get it fixed. Nassau Hobby may not be equipped to repair such an item and your fastest resolution will be to call Lionel for help.

Yes, it's an expensive toy. I will be contacting Lionel when they re-open. Lionel is shut down today because of 2.7 inches of snow. Routine weather up north. But in North Carolina, it's a crisis and the NC governor is again back on TV wearing that shirt with that huge, wacky-looking triangle patch.

Dmaxdeere87 posted:

This is why club layouts use z4000s and not the zwl,  they dont hold up. None of the zw remakes held up. The old zw which isn't that powerful keeps kicking though!! It's not any brands fault it's just electronic devices.  

Sorry Dmax,  but I have to totally disagree with you on your statement about the zw-l.   Our modular club(Pittsburgh Independent Hi-Railers) has been using the same zw-l for years now on more layout setups and displays than I can remember and it just keeps on ticking.   We have a 4 track mainline and the zw-l is used only to power those tracks and nothing else.   We sometimes have 4 passenger trains,  each train from between 7-18 illuminated cars,  running at the same time with no problems.   If a derailment occurs and trips a breaker for that track,  we just reset the breaker and we're up and running again.   Our current display at the 2018 Kennywood Holiday Lights is 67' x 60' with an approx 290' track run to complete one loop of the layout.   So from our club's viewpoint,  the zw-l has been virtually indestructible.

Nick

machinist posted:

Dmaxdeere87 posted:

This is why club layouts use z4000s and not the zwl,  they dont hold up. None of the zw remakes held up. The old zw which isn't that powerful keeps kicking though!! It's not any brands fault it's just electronic devices.  

Sorry Dmax,  but I have to totally disagree with you on your statement about the zw-l.   Our modular club(Pittsburgh Independent Hi-Railers) has been using the same zw-l for years now on more layout setups and displays than I can remember and it just keeps on ticking.   We have a 4 track mainline and the zw-l is used only to power those tracks and nothing else.   We sometimes have 4 passenger trains,  each train from between 7-18 illuminated cars,  running at the same time with no problems.   If a derailment occurs and trips a breaker for that track,  we just reset the breaker and we're up and running again.   Our current display at the 2018 Kennywood Holiday Lights is 67' x 60' with an approx 290' track run to complete one loop of the layout.   So from our club's viewpoint,  the zw-l has been virtually indestructible.

Nick

Machinist:

You are very lucky that your ZW-L has held up. A couple of other posters also indicated that their ZW-L has worked flawlessly. That's great.

In my case, a single train derailment caused the transformer to explode with a startling pop, start smoking, and fail electronically.

Gentlemen,

   You might want to put a 10 Amp breaker between your ZW-L so if you get a surge it can be reset and not harm your ZW-L.  I have them between all my Transformers of different makes and never have a problem.   Just a suggestion.

PCRR/Dave

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

Gentlemen,

   You might want to put a 10 Amp breaker between your ZW-L so if you get a surge it can be reset and not harm your ZW-L.  I have them between all my Transformers of different makes and never have a problem.   Just a suggestion.

PCRR/Dave

Good idea. But, where are you suggesting placement of a 10A breaker? Between the transformer output and the track? If so, what would this protect? Would it protect the train's electronics from a surge that originates from the transformer output? Or, is this breaker intended for an imagined surge originating from the track and going into the transformer?

In additional to the ZW-L's circuit breaker, fold-back protection, and dynamic power limiting, I also had TVS diodes, and 10A fast blow fuses. That still wasn't enough.  In my case, I am just not sure just how much additional coddling would have been sufficient to protect the ZW-L from itself.

Dmaxdeere87 posted:

This is why club layouts use z4000s and not the zwl,  they dont hold up. None of the zw remakes held up. The old zw which isn't that powerful keeps kicking though!! It's not any brands fault it's just electronic devices.  

And very easy to repair (I might add). 

Zw-l hasn't even been out long enough to say it's great and lasts long lol, the z4000 been proven

GREGR, Lionel will pay shipping both ways if you are a veteran. 

Dmaxdeere87 posted:

Zw-l hasn't even been out long enough to say it's great and lasts long lol, the z4000 been proven

Neither of you is wrong, based on your experiences.

I have both a Z4000 and a ZW-L.  Both are solid.   I have not experienced any issue with either.

I've had the Z 4000 for 7 years, and the ZW-L for 4 years.

Dmaxdeere87 posted:

Zw-l hasn't even been out long enough to say it's great and lasts long lol, the z4000 been proven

I think you’ve made your point...

GregR posted:

machinist posted:

Dmaxdeere87 posted:

This is why club layouts use z4000s and not the zwl,  they dont hold up. None of the zw remakes held up. The old zw which isn't that powerful keeps kicking though!! It's not any brands fault it's just electronic devices.  

Sorry Dmax,  but I have to totally disagree with you on your statement about the zw-l.   Our modular club(Pittsburgh Independent Hi-Railers) has been using the same zw-l for years now on more layout setups and displays than I can remember and it just keeps on ticking.   We have a 4 track mainline and the zw-l is used only to power those tracks and nothing else.   We sometimes have 4 passenger trains,  each train from between 7-18 illuminated cars,  running at the same time with no problems.   If a derailment occurs and trips a breaker for that track,  we just reset the breaker and we're up and running again.   Our current display at the 2018 Kennywood Holiday Lights is 67' x 60' with an approx 290' track run to complete one loop of the layout.   So from our club's viewpoint,  the zw-l has been virtually indestructible.

Nick

Machinist:

You are very lucky that your ZW-L has held up. A couple of other posters also indicated that their ZW-L has worked flawlessly. That's great.

In my case, a single train derailment caused the transformer to explode with a startling pop, start smoking, and fail electronically.

Greg,

I feel bad for you with the experience that you had with the zw-l.   Obviously,  there is some type of factory electrical defect with your particular transformer as a simple derailment shouldn't have caused all that damage.   At Kennywood this past weekend,  a member of the public with the touchy-feely syndrome pushed a couple of cars over and we had a major 3 train,  3 track derailment that tripped the transformer breakers on those tracks.   After re-railing everything,  we reset the zw-l breakers for those tracks and we were up and running again.   We have had many derailments over the years without permanent zw-l damage.    Lionel should take the transformer back and just replace it with a new one for you.   Then they can figure out what happened with yours,  fix it and sell it as a refurbished unit at next year's warehouse sale!

Nick

Greg, I have had good luck with Lionel service; I have sent back 4 locos over the past 4 years and each was returned in 7 business days and fixed; I made sure that I double boxed and padded them a bunch; Lionel service sent them back in the same boxes and packing.

I remember Lionel video on how to reset throttles. I believe you open it up with the post's facing away from you. Then look behind the a-u terminals you'll see a 3 pin buss. I'll try to find that video, it might even be in this forum. Good luck till then, sorry I couldn't remember the procedure, just the just! 

P

Ron464nyc posted:

I remember Lionel video on how to reset throttles. I believe you open it up with the post's facing away from you. Then look behind the a-u terminals you'll see a 3 pin buss. I'll try to find that video, it might even be in this forum. Good luck till then, sorry I couldn't remember the procedure, just the just! 

Thanks Ron. But the calibration procedure you are talking about is for a different transformer, the ZW-C Powerhouse. The current discussion is about the ZW-L transformer. I am not aware of any procedure to recalibrate a throttle on a ZW-L.

Please disregard last post before you open it up! Check this link. Instructions are for ZWc.which was totally solid state. While the ZW l is a hybrid. Keep posting 

RickM46 posted:

Greg, I have had good luck with Lionel service; I have sent back 4 locos over the past 4 years and each was returned in 7 business days and fixed; I made sure that I double boxed and padded them a bunch; Lionel service sent them back in the same boxes and packing.

Rick, that is good to hear. I have only had to send back one loco in the last 5 years, and it also came back in a few weeks, fixed correctly. I hope they provide similar support for the ZW-L, especially one which was only purchased a few weeks ago.

Sorry for your loss. I know that sinking feeling, lost my crane and my boom car on the same derailment using my ZWr. 1wk after purchase! No it's got tvs and 10 amp resable breaker. Good luck and hope this doesn't disrupt your holidays. Hey I've got a spare r110.@110amp transformer you can have if needed, let me know, cheers 

GRGER,

I had a similar problem with my ZWL. Had an engine hang up on a foam tunnel wall the grand kids moved and the legacy engine was slipping so hard that the traction tires almost burnt off. Once I realized it I went into emergency shut down and channel A -U would no longer come up to full voltage. Maybe up as far as 5 volts. ( it may have pulled 7 or 8 amps with no breaker trip) I called LIONEL they gave me an RA number and I sent it in. They had it for a month  or so. Anyway  LIONEL repaired my ZWL and sent it back no charge.  I called Lionel to ask what they found but I can’t remember what they told me, ( but they replaced components) and there would be no charge. Before the tunnel incident I had the ZWL for about 2 years. Got the transformer back and it’s working fine. Long story short Lionel fixed my ZWL with similar problems no charge. Hope this helped.

S T E

STE posted:

GRGER,

I had a similar problem with my ZWL. Had an engine hang up on a foam tunnel wall the grand kids moved and the legacy engine was slipping so hard that the traction tires almost burnt off. Once I realized it I went into emergency shut down and channel A -U would no longer come up to full voltage. Maybe up as far as 5 volts. ( it may have pulled 7 or 8 amps with no breaker trip) I called LIONEL they gave me an RA number and I sent it in. They had it for a month  or so. Anyway  LIONEL repaired my ZWL and sent it back no charge.  I called Lionel to ask what they found but I can’t remember what they told me, ( but they replaced components) and there would be no charge. Before the tunnel incident I had the ZWL for about 2 years. Got the transformer back and it’s working fine. Long story short Lionel fixed my ZWL with similar problems no charge. Hope this helped.

S T E

 

 

 

 

 

I’m glad they repaired your ZW-L. But it doesn’t thrill me to know that 7 or 8 Amps is all it takes to blow the delicate circuitry in the ZW-L. I have a few sets that would easily draw up to about 10 Amps. What ever happened to Lionel’s much hyped fold-back protection? I know it works all too well on the CW-80 where the blinking green light is a familiar and common occurrence running just about anything. I’m starting to think the ZW-L really is nothing but a 30 pound box containing 4 very fragile 180W transformers, each good for only a Scout type loco, and no more, for fear of upending things. That’s not at all the same as a single, robust, large Wattage transformer. I probably won’t miss mine while it is being repaired. Now that I have gone back to my PW ZW, I can see how much more smoothly my PW equipment runs on a pure sine wave power source. The ZW-L’s chopped wave really beats the heck out of E-units and makes Pullmor motors sound like blenders. I think when I get the ZW-L back, it’s going under the layout as the world’s most expensive power pack running street lights. What a sad end to a very expensive and failed experiment. Usually I am smart about buying trains and accessories that improve operation or bring joy to my hobby. This was a rare setback. Newer isn’t always better. Sometimes just really costly. Lesson learned. 

GregR posted:

STE posted:

GRGER,

I had a similar problem with my ZWL. Had an engine hang up on a foam tunnel wall the grand kids moved and the legacy engine was slipping so hard that the traction tires almost burnt off. Once I realized it I went into emergency shut down and channel A -U would no longer come up to full voltage. Maybe up as far as 5 volts. ( it may have pulled 7 or 8 amps with no breaker trip) I called LIONEL they gave me an RA number and I sent it in. They had it for a month  or so. Anyway  LIONEL repaired my ZWL and sent it back no charge.  I called Lionel to ask what they found but I can’t remember what they told me, ( but they replaced components) and there would be no charge. Before the tunnel incident I had the ZWL for about 2 years. Got the transformer back and it’s working fine. Long story short Lionel fixed my ZWL with similar problems no charge. Hope this helped.

S T E

 

 

 

 

 

I’m glad they repaired your ZW-L. But it doesn’t thrill me to know that 7 or 8 Amps is all it takes to blow the delicate circuitry in the ZW-L. I have a few sets that would easily draw up to about 10 Amps. What ever happened to Lionel’s much hyped fold-back protection? I know it works all too well on the CW-80 where the blinking green light is a familiar and common occurrence running just about anything. I’m starting to think the ZW-L really is nothing but a 30 pound box containing 4 very fragile 180W transformers, each good for only a Scout type loco, and no more, for fear of upending things. That’s not at all the same as a single, robust, large Wattage transformer. I probably won’t miss mine while it is being repaired. Now that I have gone back to my PW ZW, I can see how much more smoothly my PW equipment runs on a pure sine wave power source. The ZW-L’s chopped wave really beats the heck out of E-units and makes Pullmor motors sound like blenders. I think when I get the ZW-L back, it’s going under the layout as the world’s most expensive power pack running street lights. What a sad end to a very expensive and failed experiment. Usually I am smart about buying trains and accessories that improve operation or bring joy to my hobby. This was a rare setback. Newer isn’t always better. Sometimes just really costly. Lesson learned. 

Perhaps when a serious situation occurs, it is actually designed to blow certain components inside to protect the overall unit?  I have had tons of derailments and shorts and never had an issue with it coming back, but something in your case was different.

When you send it in and get it back let us know what they replaced.  That would be interesting to know.

mlavender480 posted:

Dmaxdeere87 posted:

Zw-l hasn't even been out long enough to say it's great and lasts long lol, the z4000 been proven

I think you’ve made your point...

Yup lol lol

Greg; I have had a number of shorts imposed by improperly placing locos or cars on the track where the ZWL and CW80 circuit breakers tripped with no issue.

I too would be very interested in the details of the repair; there is a description of the parts replaced and the tech initials on the return invoice.

As some have noted, one cannot generalize about a product from an n=1 experiment. Lionel has probably sold thousands or tens of thousands of these, so it would be expected that one or two purchased by forum members (or a lot more) would be lemons or exposed to unusual circumstances that cause product failure.  I don't have need of one now, but there's no doubt I'd be happy to buy a ZW-L in the future based upon other people's experiences, which are pretty close to 100% happiness.

I just talked to Lionel. They are issuing an RA. They stated that service for the ZW-L specifically has a backlog of 4 to 6 weeks minimum. Apparently, I am not the only one, and Landsteiner’s speculation of an n=1 sample population may  be optimistic. I will let everyone know the outcome. 

GregR posted:

I just talked to Lionel. They are issuing an RA. They stated that service for the ZW-L specifically has a backlog of 4 to 6 weeks minimum. Apparently, I am not the only one, and Landsteiner’s speculation of an n=1 sample population may  be optimistic. I will let everyone know the outcome. 

Well of course he was optimistic.  Lionel can do no wrong, after all...

Hope it gets fixed and you don’t have any further trouble with it.

"I just talked to Lionel. They are issuing an RA. They stated that service for the ZW-L specifically has a backlog of 4 to 6 weeks minimum. Apparently, I am not the only one, and Landsteiner’s speculation of an n=1 sample population may  be optimistic. I will let everyone know the outcome."

Alternatively, this is the backlog for all repairs, rather than specifically for the ZW-L, and Lionel is just quoting this for everyone.  This is, of course, their busiest time of year as I understand it,  as everyone gets stuff ready to go under the tree and finds something that isn't working but still under warranty.

Wishing you, optimistically, success in getting it back sooner rather than later, and in perfect working order.

I am sorry you are having trouble.  I have no experience with the ZW-L but if you are looking for additional modern power other than the ZWs I would recommend the Lionel 180 bricks.  I have used them for over a decade without problems, and the breaker is super fast.  Further, the trains (postwar and command control) seem to run much better with them than they did with the ZW 250 and ZW 275 I used previously. 

Landsteiner posted:

"I just talked to Lionel. They are issuing an RA. They stated that service for the ZW-L specifically has a backlog of 4 to 6 weeks minimum. Apparently, I am not the only one, and Landsteiner’s speculation of an n=1 sample population may  be optimistic. I will let everyone know the outcome."

Alternatively, this is the backlog for all repairs, rather than specifically for the ZW-L, and Lionel is just quoting this for everyone.  This is, of course, their busiest time of year as I understand it,  as everyone gets stuff ready to go under the tree and finds something that isn't working but still under warranty.

Wishing you, optimistically, success in getting it back sooner rather than later, and in perfect working order.

Yes, probaly a backlog for all repairs....Plus, there may be only certain people that work on these?

Gentlemen,

   Put the 10 Amp resettable breakers between the Transformers and the TIU or Legacy unit, I thought everyone knew to due this already, I have never had a problem operating in this manner.  Remember also some Transformers eventually break down, nothing you can do about that, I have a Z4K that needs repaired after 10 years in operation, just quit work correctly.  Now my old ZW's are all still working perfectly, some over 40 years old.

PCRR/Dave