new guy with switch trouble

Most likely, you have the wires coming from the toggle/throw attached to the wrong poles on the O27 switch.  It's not necessarily the case that the center wire goes to the center post; it depends on how the wires are connected under the toggle housing (if you're using the old O27 switch throws).

You should have got 3 wires for 3 posts, and I think this gives you 6 combinations of how you attached the wires to the posts.  Try moving them around.  Once you find the one that pulls the track power, then the other 2 are merely there to control the direction, green or red.

Thanks - I have tried multiple combinations of wiring to no avail.  The problem occurs with or without the remote installed.  The switches are newer and i have swapped out the switches with different, that does not seem to fix anything. 

If it helps at all, my layout is a recreation of the layout in Greenberg's Wiring Your Lionel Layout.  using o27 track.

Haven't used O27 switches in a while but I believe there should be insulated pins on the inside rails of the switched end   SOunds like your non-derailing is engaged all the time.

the fibre pins are in the correct locations.  i think i am going to start replacing track to see if there is a short somewhere on the loop. 

Try page 4 HERE for pin placement.

If you have the older Lionel 1122-E "non-derailing" O27 switches, the insulating track pins need to be in the two short sections of running rails closest to the frog. EXCEPT, the earliest 1122 switches did not require any insulating pins because the longer outer rails of the switch had their own gaps, which you can see, but those switches are more likely to stall some engines.

Can you tell us more specifically what model of O27 switches you have?

Thank you for all of your sugestions.  I think I need to clarify my situation.  I am recreating the layout in Greenberg's Wiring Your Lionel Layout.  There are two concentric loops containing five Lionel O27 switches.  I am using the 5121 and 5122 remote switches.  When I did a dry fit and rough wire everything was working fine. After I had added cork trackbed and done the finish wiring I noticed that all five switches are continuously engaged.  I have checked with wiring sequence were the "throws" connect to the switch, check location of the insulating pins and traced and checked all of my wiring for shorts.  I cannot figure out why this is now happening.  Any advice would be great.

You are using some unfamiliar terms...  "checked with wiring sequence", "were throws connect to the switch", eg.

You stated earlier that the switches hum without the "remote"(switch controller?) connected.  If indeed there are NO wired connections to the switches, this would lead to a conclusion of improper insulating pin placement.  This cannot be brushed off lightly!  Please post photos or links to photos of the switches as installed.

If the pins are placed properly(and some switches that adjoin each other will have all three pins being fiber/insulating), then the two binding posts farthest from the switch motor housing are somehow shorted to ground(outside rails).  Each post is electrically connected to one of the control rails(the shorter "diverging/straight" rails), and you need to inspect the rails too for shorts to ground(which includes a steel pin in place where a fiber pin should be) for debris and construction materials.  This would be highly unlikely for all 5 switches, though.

So, disconnect all wires from the switch machine first, including controllers.  Then disconnect one track at a time from the diverging/straight rails until the noise goes away, and you will have found the source of the short.

But please post photos so we can help!

Here are pictures of the layout.  In the closeups the red pegs indicate where the fibre pins are located.

full layout

switch at lower right of layout

turnout to center loop

switch at top right of layout

switch at bottom of center loop

switch at dead end spur

This photo shows an older Lionel 1122 switch but the insulating pin placement is the same as what your 5121 & 5122 switches should have.

As per Ace, "circled" in blue, but using your photo, where insulating pins must be:

Only you know why the other ones are there. <g>

Pete

Thank you all, I will change locations and see if it works.  I am confused in that the layout I am recreating shows the pins located where I have them.  It work previously, so I am confused.  Thanks again, I will let you all know how this plays out.

Chris

The others are correct with fibre pins for the derailing feature of the switches.  In looking at your layout, however, 2 per on the double-end of the switch aren't the only fiber pins you'll need (as I think you already know, so I may be stating the obvious....sorry if that's the case). 

I may mis-use some electrical terms here, but for switches going into sidings that you may want to power off at times, you'll need to insulate the hot (center) rail too.  That's especially true if you're going to have the inner loop on a separate transformer from the outer loop which I'm guessing you'd want to do. 

If you do that, and you're using old independent transformers like I use, be sure to phase them.  There are instructions in various books on how to do that. 

And, once you have this figured out, experiment first with motive power that doesn't have on-board electronics.  I used my #50 gang car until I'm sure everything's working before putting anything modern on the track.

Hi Chris, I had a problem like this with a Lionel O-31 switch a number of years back and it turned out to be a short in the switch it's self. I know it is not logical that all the switches have the same problem, so I am leaning towards what Rob suggested above. That is there may be a short at one of the outer rails per a bad insulator paper on one of the ties on the center rail.

I know this can be very frustrating, especially when the best we can offer you is some shot in the dark advice like what I present above. But, hang in there buddy. I'm sure you are going to work this out.

This is going to sound like something you don't wont to do but the way I found my switch short was by disconnecting the track section by section and switch by switch  until the problem went away.

Good luck.

Hi Chris, another thought just popped into my head so I came back on to offer it to you. On your layout do you have more then one transformer powering the loops? I was wondering if this could not be due to a phase issue between the two. 

It could be due to the transformer you are using to power the switches being out of phase with the track voltage as well.

The layout in the wiring book I think uses a combination of O-27 and "O" switches, which is where the confusion in the location of the fiber pins comes in.  Chris has placed the insulating pins in the wrong rails of the curve leg for each of his O-27 switches, which would be the proper rail for 022 types.

thank you all - every thing is working now.  i will post a few pics when i have added all the accessories.

Chris - yes, please post your progress.  I tore down my O27/O42 layout last year and got some of it rebuilt.  I'm hoping to finish my reduced-size layout in the next 3 weeks before I head in for back surgery, but I'm not optimistic about having it operational by then.  After surgery, I won't be crawling under any tables for 6-9 months which pushes me out 'til next year. 

I have some of those same switches on my layout, and also in the 42" curve form.  They're temperamental to say the least.  I had a big problem with the black coating wearing off and causing shorts.  Be prepared to re-paint the switch mechanism from time to time to prevent bare metal from being exposed.

So... what was the problem? What did you change to make it work?

Looks like it was exactly what I said on the 13th   The insulating pins were on the wrong side and the non-derailing was always engaged

hello MN-Chris.......

that's a nice small layout you have there    There should be more folks with small layouts and post the photos here.

the woman who loves the S.F.#5021

Tiffany

I added pins to the correct locations, then the non derailing stopped working.  then i removed the pins that were in the wrong location.  Everything works now. 

thanks