Lionel 763 E Steam engine refurb

Thank you for taking the time to post photos and show your progress on this locomotive, PENNSYDAVE. I really enjoyed seeing the photos and reading what you've done so far!

Rusty

Just got the same unit myself this spring. Had to do all the same, and more. It was locked up and the tender had some internal issues. All good now. What tender do you have? Oil or coal?

Measure the distance on the right side running board from the cab to the front of the boiler.  If it exceeds 26.5 cm, the boiler has grown and will continue expanding to the point that it may eventually fail and may have issues mounting to the frame.  I got these measurements from Don Hagar years ago when I repaired a 700E and 763E.

I'm not an expert on prewar, but I know some early examples of the 700-series Hudsons suffer from the dreaded zinc pest.  If you google around, you might find measurement dimensions to check whether your cab and chassis are warped or swollen.  It's a shame, but I think that's what caused the crack in your cab.  If so, will only get worse, so I would be on the lookout for another cab.

I agree about not pulling the drivers; there's no need to do that.  If they are bound up with dried lube, you could try a shot of Clean Streak aerosol bicycle degreaser or even WD-40.

I agree that the rear axle of the trailing truck should have two spoked wheels of the same size.  It could be that the original wheel crumbled, and the previous owner made a replacement, or used a part from something else that he had on hand.

In a lot of ways, Lionel was at the top of its game in 1940-41.  I can only imagine how our hobby would have evolved had WWII not intervened (Lionel clearly went in more of a 'toy train' direction after the war.)  I've personally stayed away from the prewar Hudsons because of high prices, and the known issues of zinc pest destroying my $1500-2000 treasure.

Ted S posted:

I'm not an expert on prewar, but I know some early examples of the 700-series Hudsons suffer from the dreaded zinc pest.  If you google around, you might find measurement dimensions to check whether your cab and chassis are warped or swollen.  It's a shame, but I think that's what caused the crack in your cab.  If so, will only get worse, so I would be on the lookout for another cab.

I agree about not pulling the drivers; there's no need to do that.  If they are bound up with dried lube, you could try a shot of Clean Streak aerosol bicycle degreaser or even WD-40.

I agree that the rear axle of the trailing truck should have two spoked wheels of the same size.  It could be that the original wheel crumbled, and the previous owner made a replacement, or used a part from something else that he had on hand.

In a lot of ways, Lionel was at the top of its game in 1940-41.  I can only imagine how our hobby would have evolved had WWII not intervened (Lionel clearly went in more of a 'toy train' direction after the war.)  I've personally stayed away from the prewar Hudsons because of high prices, and the known issues of zinc pest destroying my $1500-2000 treasure.

Yes, the famous zinc pest was a problem for them. Luckily mine is o.k.. I paid $400 for mine with a set of Madison cars. Mind you it was locked up though. Fine now.

The small cab window mullions and the short pins on the worm shaft coupling indicate that this a 1937 locomotive. This is the worst year for zinc alloy related failures.   I would strongly recommend you look at Don Hagar’s two dvds on the subject. Each is about an hour in length. One is “The Lionel Hudson Locomotive” and the other is “Disassembly and Assembly of The Lionel Hudson Locomotive”.  Both are excellent. Don was known as the 700E expert. I got my copies on Amazon. After Don passed away his family had trouble with the dvd production and the movies are now only available on Amazon Prime Video. Maybe the TCA Museum Library has copies?  

The broken cab is typical of this year.  The boiler is growing both in length and in diameter. The rectangular cab hung on the end of the boiler just cannot resist these forces.   Best thing to do is just try to live with it. The only thing that can be done to reduce more damage is store the locomotive in a cool dry location. 

The rear truck wheels are pressed on the axles. Some parts for this locomotive are available because of the 1990 remake. Many parts were interchangeable.  Some are not.  The rear truck axles are unique on this locomotive as Lionel produced them with raised seats for the wheels and a raised seat where the booster would have mounted.  The instructions for the 700K, the kit version, have been reprinted many times and you should not have too much trouble find a copy.  These instructions include detailed photos on how to assemble the kit. This may be on the Olsen web site.  

The other problem these locos may have due to the zinc problem is bending of the frame. Check and see how much clearance these is between the end of the pilot and the center rail. If it is almost dragging the frame is bent.  Don Hagar addresses how to fix this in his video.  

There is a long post about the prewar 0-6-0 switchers in the prewar section of this forum. It includes lots of information on motor maintenance.  You might find this useful as the 227 switchers and the 700E and 763E all use almost identical motors. 

Do not try to remove the drive wheels from the axle. They may fall apart due to the zinc pest. I believe the modern 700E has a larger axle and it’s wheels will not fit. Replacement wheels for your loco will be hard to find. 

Thanks for the info, I am familiar with the zinc pest, but the frame looks pretty straight.  The cab was broken when my friend purchased it about 20 yrs ago.  I am not sure if it is worse now or not.  I will take that measurement tomorrow.  I have a repro spoke wheel on the way from the Train Tender. If any of you know about Jeff, he is amazing, responsive, lots of parts and reasonable pricing.  

When I attempted to remove the boiler from the chassis it took some effort because the distance between the two bottom sides of the boiler barely fit through the weight!! So maybe there is some 'expansion' of the boiler happening.  I will have to be careful during reassembly and maybe file down the weight a bit.  Thanks again for all the info. 

My friend just wants to run it on his layout for a while. So I am just cleaning it up so it runs.  It does run smoothly that's why I believe the chassis is still straight.  

This post has been really helpful.  Does anyone have a parts listing of the 763e?  I purchased a 763e that seems to have been dropped as several wheel flanges are severely chipped as if it hit the floor on its wheels (several are chipped or cracked in the same place).   I've found replacements for all the broken parts, except for the valve gear support hanger, and the pins that connect the valve gear assemblies to the hanger.  I believe the part number is 700E-48-2, but I would appreciate it if anyone can confirm. This is a picture of how mine looks.  The one I removed from the loco has pretty much disintegrated except for the general frame. And one of the assemblies is missing (broken off at the driver wheel).

I found this image on eBay but it has long since been sold and cannot find anything like it in my searches:

So, what I still need help with is the following:

• Parts listing for the 763e (or where I can find one)
• Help in finding a replacement of the valve gear support hanger (700e-48-2 ???)
• Help in finding the pins that secure the valve gear assemblies to the support hanger

I'll post updates as I locate these final missing parts.

Luckily the shell seems to be in perfect shape (no warping) and after cleaning and with new lube, the motor and e-unit seem to be in perfect original order with lots of power so it seems it hasn't been run in a very long time.  Here are some other pics of the loco.

cannot tell what is wrong with your valve support hanger.

are you looking for wheels or someone to replace them?  This reqires not only wheels but tools such as a press and the skill of quartering. 

I have had a 763 wheel flange break just from use and some crazing.

As compared to the pictures posted earlier, you can see the side brackets are gone.  One side was gone when I got it, and the other simply dissolved into a bunch of pieces when I removed the valve gear from the drive wheel.

Your wheels aren’t chipped from being dropped, they’ve got zinc rot, which is fairly common on some of these engines. No easy or cheap option for repair. One option is to buy the bolt on spoked drivers from Jeff Kane @ The Train Tender, and obtain a later Hudson chassis with bolt on drivers, and swap out the Scullin Discs with the spoke type. Otherwise, if you find pressed on drivers, be prepared to shell out some dough to have them pressed on and quartered properly. Sometimes nice 763E, or 700E chassis pop up on the popular auction sites, but usually for insane prices,…..either way, you’re in a bit of a pickle….The last option would be to buy a 785 Hudson ( these can sometimes trade for smaller money ) and just swap out the entire chassis and park your original chassis……

Pat

I got this loco from a local online auction that didn't show or describe to loco, but showcased the 800 series cars in the lot.  When I got it home and opened the box, it also had a small box of original replacement drive wheels.  I have a wheel puller tool that fits on these wheels but any suggestions on a professional service that could handle this would be great.  It was a huge surprise to find the loco and matching Vanderbilt whistle tender in the box, so hopefully I have some wiggle room to get it put back together in running condition.

how is your boiler/cab?   you might use that as your starting point and put a chassis underneath it. Sell off what good parts you have.

Do you want to operate it or just display it?

30+ years ago I went the route of trying to repair such a project.  Learned alot, took a long , long time.

The boiler/cab are in perfect condition except for the stamped engine number on the cab being a bit rubbed off.  Everything I have is operational so I'd like to get it back into service, while also trying to keep it as original as possible.  I'm not planning to repaint or anything like that.  Plus the few chassis that I've seen on ebay also seem to have the broken or missing Valve Gear Hanger Support.

@sclouse posted:

I got this loco from a local online auction that didn't show or describe to loco, but showcased the 800 series cars in the lot.  When I got it home and opened the box, it also had a small box of original replacement drive wheels.  I have a wheel puller tool that fits on these wheels but any suggestions on a professional service that could handle this would be great.  It was a huge surprise to find the loco and matching Vanderbilt whistle tender in the box, so hopefully I have some wiggle room to get it put back together in running condition.

I offer this service, but sadly, with as much zinc rot your example exhibits, I wouldn’t touch it with a 10 foot pole. When they get to crumbing like yours is, it’s usually curtains. Not to mention if there’s any warping of the original chassis, quartering can become a nightmare…..The direction I’d steer you in, before you go down a rabbit hole you’ll never come out of, would be to buy a clean 785, and repaint it to match your 763E, and park your original 763E for posterity…….or pay someone to repaint a 785 to be a 763, and then you’d be up & running in no time……

Pat

https://ogrforum.com/...6#180214019344360796

I'll keep looking.  The example you provided also has a chipped driver wheel and a broken valve gear support holder, but you've all opened my eyes to some other options.  Thanks!

If you can PM me an email address I will scan in parts diagrams this weekend.

@CPF3 posted:

If you can PM me an email address I will scan in parts diagrams this weekend.

Is there a way to do that where I send it directly to you, without posting it in the thread?

@sclouse posted:

Is there a way to do that where I send it directly to you, without posting it in the thread?

Click on his profile, some devises you click on it twice,…that’ll take you to his profile page where you can get his email,…

Pat

@sclouse posted:

So, what I still need help with is the following:

• Parts listing for the 763e (or where I can find one)
• Help in finding a replacement of the valve gear support hanger (700e-48-2 ???)
• Help in finding the pins that secure the valve gear assemblies to the support hanger

OGR Forum sponsor Trainz.com shows two later versions of the Valve Gear support hanger (700E-48-2) as presently available, these being 700E-48-4 and 700E-48-5.

The parts list for the 763e can be found on page 51 (Page 10 in the T.O.C., and it's labeled Page 17 on the page itself) of this book:

I have the CD-ROM version and I find it very useful because all pre-war rolling stock and accessories are covered fairly nicely.

Good luck with your search.

Mike

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

OGR Forum sponsor Trainz.com shows two later versions of the Valve Gear support hanger (700E-48-2) as presently available, these being 700E-48-4 and 700E-48-5.

The parts list for the 763e can be found on page 51 (Page 10 in the T.O.C., and it's labeled Page 17 on the page itself) of this book:

I have the CD-ROM version and I find it very useful because all pre-war rolling stock and accessories are covered fairly nicely.

Good luck with your search.

Mike

Mike, Looking at the frame for my loco, I'm not sure the hangers listed on Trainz would work as the one I removed has that semicircle in indentation that fits around the front pick-up screw.  Will those other model configurations work on my loco?

The issues of the original scale and semi scale prewar Hudsons is what makes the reissues such a fantastic buy.  Even the 1-700e sells dirt cheap compared to its prewar version.  It also will run on tubular track down to 042 with smaller pilot wheels installed. As much as I love the prewar versions, I have avoided them due to cost and zinc pest issues.  I get my prewar hudson "fix" with my OO versions I own,  they rarely have the zinc pest issue and their frame warpage is due to a design flaw with the front boiler mounting screw. Once straightend and that screw only finger tight, all is good.   Good luck in saving the old girl, but once that zinc pest starts, there is no stopping it, eventually that cab will just crumble at the first thing it touches.   AD

@sclouse posted:

Looking at the frame for my loco, I'm not sure the hangers listed on Trainz would work as the one I removed has that semicircle in indentation that fits around the front pick-up screw.  Will those other model configurations work on my loco?

Unfortunately I'm not sure either.  I don't have a known-good answer for you directly because there seems to be little documentation on the difference between the -2, -3 and -4 versions.

However, generally when a suffix like these is added to a part number it's because an 'improvement' was made to the prior version.  This is different than Lionel making a change so substantial that the nature of the part changes in a way such that it can't be used in the previous application(s).  When this kind of substantial change occurs it usually, but maybe not always, changes the base part number instead of the suffix.

So, theoretically all three versions should "fit".

As to whether they actually do, perhaps a 700E/763E expert here can comment?

Mike

@CPF3 posted:

If you can PM me an email address I will scan in parts diagrams this weekend.

Dear John, let me know if you get the chance to scan the parts diagrams. Thanks!

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Unfortunately I'm not sure either.  I don't have a known-good answer for you directly because there seems to be little documentation on the difference between the -2, -3 and -4 versions.

However, generally when a suffix like these is added to a part number it's because an 'improvement' was made to the prior version.  This is different than Lionel making a change so substantial that the nature of the part changes in a way such that it can't be used in the previous application(s).  When this kind of substantial change occurs it usually, but maybe not always, changes the base part number instead of the suffix.

So, theoretically all three versions should "fit".

As to whether they actually do, perhaps a 700E/763E expert here can comment?

Mike

https://ogrforum.com/...8#180073281801486128

Dear Pat, Mike, and others who've provided such great feedback.  Just a quick update and then a question.

Update:  I've secured all the parts needed to replace the broken or crumbled parts. After extensive searching I even found a mislabeled ebay auction that listed several O Gauge brass parts but as a bonus (looking at the detail pics) included several old Lionel 700 parts that included the correct valve gear hanger (700e-48-2), a 700e-8 steam chest, and all the detail drive shaft parts.   As mentioned earlier I found a small box in the original auction lot that includes 4 Flanged, and 2 Flangeless Driver wheels.  They look identical to the one on the 763e loco but I cannot find any number or mark on the wheels.  They seem older, but unused and in perfect shape with shinny rims.

Question:  Regarding the suggestion of finding a replacement chassis & wheels, the only ones I've seen on eBay that will work are $275+.  So, what is the risk of my trying to pull the chipped wheels off the original chassis, and mounting the new ones? What could go wrong (assuming I'm able to align and quarter the new ones correctly).  I'm thinking that if the worst goes wrong I'd still need to find a replacement chassis, but if successful I'm on my way to getting her back on the rails and fully operational.  I'm out approx. $160 for all the replacement parts so far.  I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts and feedback.

I do not know how perfect your restoration has to be, but I will throw out two possible fixes if that is acceptable.

1  The cracked pushed in cab window.  I doubt it was caused by the zinc pest but could have been.  I would get a small 2 inch long steel bar at least 1/4 inch thick or a large Allen wench handle and a small strong C clamp.  Clean the area of the cracks off with lacquer thinner and let dry.  Make up a small pea size batch of J B Weld and smear and force it into the cracks on both sides with a strong finger.  Clean off most of the excess JB Weld and put some PVC black electrical tape or junk thin plastic on both sides of the cracks to keep the JBW from sticking to the C clamp or bar.  Put the steel on the out side of cab at the roof line.  Put the solid part of the C clamp on the inside where the side of the cab sticks out and the moving part of the C clamp on the middle of the bar and slowly screw down the C clamp.  This should straigthen out the damaged area.  Let the JB Weld cure for 72 hours.  The remove the clamp and hopefully the damaged area will be in its original position and held by the JB Weld.  The file off the excess JBW to be smooth and repaint.

2  Chip on flange of train wheel.  Clean off with lacquer thinner, build a dam with masking tape, use JB Weld to fill in the chipped out area, let cure 72 hours and file off excess JBW to the original shape.

Charlie

For reference, here's some pics taken today of a 763 on display at our club.  One day, I'm going to service and run it on our layout.

No zinc rot.

I also need to replace the drawbar pin chain.  Here are some examples.  Micro-Mark has bulk chain available but I need some help selecting the best option (Miniature Chain for Model Work (micromark.com).  I'm thinking the option 'E' (item #85275).

Does anyone now of other sources for replacing the chain?  I haven't come across anything close to it in my searches.

Try Hobby Lobby or Michaels in the jewelry department.

Good Day !

I figured I might as well piggy back my question on to this thread , as its been helpful , so far ...

What curve do these locos run on , minumum ...

asking for a friend who was just gifted one  ( why cant I have friends like that ?   )

dP

@dave Prasse posted:

Good Day !

I figured I might as well piggy back my question on to this thread , as its been helpful , so far ...

What curve do these locos run on , minumum ...

asking for a friend who was just gifted one  ( why cant I have friends like that ?   )

dP

I run my 763E only on O72. Some folks claim you can go tighter on the radius. I'd rather not a take a chance and see a 763E take a dive off a table.

The thing to remember is that Lionel had only 2 curves in the prewar era. O31 or O72.

Maybe you can go a little tighter but I like I said, I can't promise anything.

@sclouse posted:

Question: ... What could go wrong (assuming I'm able to align and quarter the new ones correctly).  I'm thinking that if the worst goes wrong I'd still need to find a replacement chassis, but if successful I'm on my way to getting her back on the rails and fully operational.  I'm out approx. $160 for all the replacement parts so far.  I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts and feedback.

If using a wheel puller,  you have to be very careful.  Any twist or side pressure on the wheel could bend the axle.    That is the biggest risk.  I tend to avoid the wheel puller when there is another way to get the wheel off.  If your dremel skills are good, you may cut the bad wheel near the axel, to relieve the pressure and pull what is left off.   

Quartering takes patience if you don't have the proper press and wheel cups.   I have a special C clamp that works great  for pressing wheels on.  It was a college shop project in NC machining way back in the day. 

Sometimes the right answer is to do nothing.  To me, this sounds like one of those cases.  Sit it on the shelf and enjoy the view.

Hey Bill, you may be correct, but I'm so close to having her fully operational again. I only need to replace 2 drive wheels to complete the project. I'm also working with PE Design and Manufacturing: Wheel Cups - PE Design & Manufacturing (pedesignmanuf.com).  I'm sending them a replacement wheel and they're going to make a wheel cup for this sized wheel (it seems they get a lot of inquiries for this).

And thanks for the suggestion VHubbard, I can't re-use the wheel once its off.  Never thought about using the dremel.  Great idea!

https://ogrforum.com/...9#180214019350437419

In addition, I've also found the books recommended above along with another 'Lionel 1900-1943' book which has been really helpful.  I've even found the Toolbox, tools, with original box (#812-T - goes in the 812 gondola) which came in the original 'work train' set.  It's been an amazing journey and great conversation.

@Choo Choo Charlie posted:

I do not know how perfect your restoration has to be, but I will throw out two possible fixes if that is acceptable.

1  The cracked pushed in cab window.  I doubt it was caused by the zinc pest but could have been.  I would get a small 2 inch long steel bar at least 1/4 inch thick or a large Allen wench handle and a small strong C clamp.  Clean the area of the cracks off with lacquer thinner and let dry.  Make up a small pea size batch of J B Weld and smear and force it into the cracks on both sides with a strong finger.  Clean off most of the excess JB Weld and put some PVC black electrical tape or junk thin plastic on both sides of the cracks to keep the JBW from sticking to the C clamp or bar.  Put the steel on the out side of cab at the roof line.  Put the solid part of the C clamp on the inside where the side of the cab sticks out and the moving part of the C clamp on the middle of the bar and slowly screw down the C clamp.  This should straigthen out the damaged area.  Let the JB Weld cure for 72 hours.  The remove the clamp and hopefully the damaged area will be in its original position and held by the JB Weld.  The file off the excess JBW to be smooth and repaint.

2  Chip on flange of train wheel.  Clean off with lacquer thinner, build a dam with masking tape, use JB Weld to fill in the chipped out area, let cure 72 hours and file off excess JBW to the original shape.

Charlie

Hey Charlie, after re-reading this thread I stopped on your post again.  When I first read your post I had only heard about JB Weld but never used it.  Since then, a friend showed me how he used it to repair a broken metal decorative component on an old clock, which brought me back to your post.  I'm now thinking I may try to correct the wheel flanges with the JB Weld while waiting for the wheel cups (which may take a while), and before I try to dremel them off.  Whatever I do, I'll post progress photos.