Generally, for layout power, I'll take an LW over a 1033. More voltage, more style - overall more refined if you ask me.

Yep, LW over 1033 every day of the week. I have a number of different single throttle PW transformers, and the LW is my favorite.

IF it's to power a small layout, would seem to me the LW would be a better choice than a 1033.

I opted for a 1033 to use as my workbench transformer on the account if it's small size and it's less bulky to take hither n' yon, yet still has enough oomph to run individual single-motor postwar engines. (I don't have any interest in the dual-motor Lionel offerings.)

Andre

+1 for the LW. Mine is still all original. Plenty of power and the large buttons are great for kids. 

The LW is fine for Postwar hogs like dual-motored Fs and the 773.  The starting voltage is too high for a lot of modern locos with can motors (assuming that you're going to operate them conventionally.)  Unless you rewire dual motors in series, or put a long string of diodes between the pick-ups and the motor, they leap off to a start. 

The 1033, with a nominal range of 5-16 volts, or even a 1034 (with 4-14 volts) is a better choice for such low-current applications.  My $.02.

I really had my heart set on an LW for the looks of it, but talking to quite a few people I went with a rebuilt ZW.  The price has dropped on the ZWs. I you know where to look, you can get rebuilt ones for $150, including shipping and a warranty. I figured if I was gonna be serious about this hobby, it was an investment worth making. Still, I wish I had an LW.

@Adam4378, If I had to choose one, I'd take the ZW over the LW. That is not to say there is much wrong with the LW.

Back in the 1950s and 60s, my father, a doctor of internal medicine, had a big black machine attached to the wall, with all kinds of red and green lights on it,  dials, dressed in white, and a cord with an "electric needle" attached to it.

It was used to literally burn off warts and other growths on people's skin.  When he ran it, it gave out a real loud "buzz" and as he touched it to the growth, black smoke would rise up and you would smell the stench of burning flesh.   (You could even smell it out in the waiting room.)

This was standard procedure for any doctor's office of that time.  (Yep, people were a **** of alot tougher back then.  The modern Y Gen crybabies wouldn't have lasted a month in that world.)

Anyway, the little hole in the wall train store down the road from me has eight ZWs, all of which look really good, and many of which are in their original cardboard cartons.  He bought them in a bulk purchase from an old train shop owner who had to retire and sell out at age 70.

Problem is, . . . the   LZs looks EXACTLY like the Electric Needle machine that use to hang on my dad's wall!   I can't bear to look at them or touch them .   (Too scary!)

I'll stick with getting an LW.    (I really like the idea of later getting a 1033 as a portable bench tester.)

Mannyrock

If your running Postwar, these LWs and other older Transformers are OK.  As long as you have thoroughly checked them out for wiring shorts and rust. I love a deal like all of us and the older transformers are easy to come by at shows. (Does anyone remember the train shows?)

However, I think that the running the newer engines with the newer electronics requires the newer transformers built for that electronics. 

Every time I read this board, I learn new terms of art.  Proud to learn that what I"ll be running are called Postwar Hogs!

Geez, I ought to get tee-shirts made up, and sell them at the next Train Show, in 2025.

Mannyrock

I really like my LW. They certainly look cool just sitting there.

@Mannyrock posted:

Every time I read this board, I learn new terms of art.  Proud to learn that what I"ll be running are called Postwar Hogs!

Geez, I ought to get tee-shirts made up, and sell them at the next Train Show, in 2025.

Mannyrock

A bit of history of railroad slang...

* Engines used to be referred to as "Hogs".

* Engineer's used to be referred to as "Hogger" and/or "Hoghead".

Such slang terms are seldom heard now on the railroad. During my railroad years, I've used the term "Piglet" to refer to a both an Engineer trainee I was training, as well as a newly credential Engineer.  Sometimes said trainee/newly credentialed Engineer barely appreciated the term!

Andre

I use a LW for power on my yard. Love the look, the light in the dial, and the performance. Don’t like that power increases counterclockwise, different from most other transformers.

A plexiglass fence at the end of the yard made it okay. 😳

They're hogs alright.  More so than some other postwar and modern locos, they guzzle a lot of volts (and watts) to get going, and pull a train at speed!

@AlanRail posted:

running the newer engines with the newer electronics requires the newer transformers built for that electronics. 

@AlanRail, this isn't personally directed at you, but as more of a PSA:

THIS IS  A MYTH AND NEEDS TO STOP BEING PERPETUATED!

The long and short of it all: A well executed power setup will include TVS diodes and discrete external circuit breakers for all utilized channels and all power sources, classic and modern, from your pre-war alphabet soup, through your classics like the ZW, to your shiny new ZW-L or Z4000.

As for more information on the why TVS diodes and external breakers are needed and such, here is some information I've compiled:

The TVS diode protects against voltage spikes caused by collapsing electromagnetic fields generated by the layout (relays, solenoids, motors, derailments etc).

A short video about those spikes from collapsing magnetic fields (scaled up from our trains, but lays out the scenario in an easy to consume way):

Since the source of these spikes are layout side, you want the protection layout side. Many people put these TVS diodes on the track, others put them on the output terminals of the transformer, and some do both!

With a ZW, it is easy to take 4 TVS diodes, shape them like this so they wrap around the binding posts, (A-U, B-U, C-U, D-U).

The 1.5KE36CA is what seems to be generally recommended around here and good for most any O gauge AC setup.

These diodes are sacrificial. They degrade as they protect against the voltage spikes. Just as your surge protector power strips recommend replacement every so often, same goes for the TVS diodes for similar reasons. TVS diodes can fail silently (no symptoms in operation), or fail spectacularly as a dead short, or fail annoyingly open preventing any power. There isn't a practical way for the layman to test the diodes for all the failure modes, so having a few on each buss and a replacement schedule (every few years) seems to be a reasonable balance.

Most people immediately think about their track and expensive locomotives, but don't forget to protect your accessory buss as well. They also have solenoids, relays, motors, and other sources of the EMF.

Some argue that power systems, like the MTH TIU, already have a TVS diode. That is true, and does offer protection, but it is thought to be better to have the protection closer to the sources, so the closer to the track, the better. Some even make it a practice to install these diodes directly in the locomotive so they don't have to worry about their club or friend's layout having the proper protection.

Most of all, the myth that fast acting circuit breakers (or fast blow fuses), whether included in a modern transformer, or externally are all you need is false - they do nothing to protect the sensitive electronics from these EMF voltage spikes. However, additional circuit breakers should still be considered essential. The main purpose of the transformers circuit breaker is to prevent the transformer from being damaged by an over current situation - this sometimes has the side-effect of also protecting downstream equipment (trains), but again, is not the principle purpose. If you have a huge honkin' tonkin' transformer capable of 15A output, but your train only needs 5 amps, then it should be on its own buss/block with a 5-7 amp breaker. This helps the small wires in your engine or powered rolling stock from carrying 15+ amps and melting in a direct short situation. For an accessory buss with small gauge wire, you definitely do not want 15+ amps going through that in a short situation, so again, an appropriate sized breaker.

Another need for external breakers on each buss/channel is that on classic transformers, not all potential power paths are protected. For example, a ZW with 4 channels, only has the U terminals behind the breaker. A short could happen between any two non-U posts with no internal overload protection.

For circuit breakers (and fuses), there is this misconception that circuit breakers trip the instant they are over their rating. i.e a 10 Amp breaker will trip at 10.01 amps or 10.1 amps, or definitely by 10.5 amps. That is generally not true. Just take a look at a generic breakers specification sheet:

In this common example, you can see that constant 135% overload (13 Amps on this 10 Amp breaker) could take an hour to trip. (https://ogrforum.com/...cuit-breaker-stumped). As such, there are those who seek out magnetic or electronic breakers over traditional thermal ones. However, remember, in a dead short, something like a ZW can pump out 50 Amps minimizing the trip time of even thermal breakers (and also illustrating the need for discrete channel breakers - imagine 50 amps going through a small 24 gauge locomotive or accessory wire for an instant).

Most of all, this advice/recommendation for TVS diodes and discrete external circuit breakers pertains to all power sources, classic and modern, from your pre-war alphabet soup, through your classics like the ZW, to your shiny new ZW-L or Z4000.

If you are curious about the trip times of the classic Lionel transformers, the 5D testing documents have a nice chart to reference:

LW's?

Love 'em

I have three. Besides the classic ZW, they are my favorite transformer.

Nice chart from the 5D test set. Notice that a ZW is considered within spec if the circuit breaker, drawing 30 Amps, trips after 40 seconds! I wonder what that looks or smells like at 40 seconds?

Love my LW - always have - great transformer 👍🏼

Love the retro look, don't like the starting voltage.  I refuse to part with mine although it has seen little use as of late.

I have a soft spot for the LW. When my little 25w Scout transformer died, my dad bought me an LW while away on a Saturday business trip to Chicago. Woke up Sunday morning and there it was, sitting on my train board! Especially loved how the brightness of the light increased as the voltage did.

Terry

My first transformer and from the first year the LW was made (1955, I believe?) Loved it.

Six GP diodes and your starting voltage is back around 5vac (or 8?¿? or 3-4 bridge rectifiers). Top end will drop the same amount of volts, but the amps are still gonna be there. Heck, put them on a toggle and/ or #90 button so you can drop or recover the voltage. Or use a 3 position,on/off/temporary on, sprung toggle for both actions. They might even make a lit one

The LW wins on looks from Lionel.  The only real contenders are the AF deadman handle gimmick, or some of those earlier mfgs. that more closely resembled some real throttle stands and their handle shapes.

  I always wanted to tin-knock my own "proper" throttle stand... and I have a little 120v mig welder with a bad wire feed unit I'm baulking on buying for due to cost vs ability to use it as I used to. 

 It's transformer is pure sine 24vac and has one heck of a rheostat right there for me to steal too. 🤔😬😈... we’ll see   

 Thanks for the proper setting to think of this repurposing possiblity

Lol, I added 50+ fuses to a "simple" dunebuggy where the mfgs. might have run 6-12 tops. Shorts or meltdowns were simply not allowed to be an issue as I drove very remote areas. Even the starter, solinoid, and (2 big) batteries had thier own fuses. A few acc power.(lighter outlet) circuits front to rear in a seperate loom "just in case" too. ... It didn't even have a radio, just acc. outlets, fog/reg. lights, wiper/wash, gauges & ignition  

I don't think I could have ever pulled that excellent bit of reality check off like bmoran4 just did.  Soooo many loose ends and tangents possible, but he trimmed it's.focus pretty well, spikes kill boards, tvs helps, different thermal items have their own burn/trip curves to consider.

Additional external protection has always been recommended by Lionel and others.  I learned to be anal about it from crispy video/pinballs where others weren't....    So, how well are your wires protected?

If just one can "maybe" burn, anything it crosses is at risk, even dead or fused wire can be burned by that lone wire you didn't fuse . 😐 

The point is to eliminate risk to the wiring and you guys would hate to have to redo it all again right .  A pleasant side effect is it also protects some other things besides wire.

(I tend to use "fuse" for breaker, because if a thermal breaker isn't available, a fuse often replaces it in repair. It's easier to say and write, and they are similar enough to float the context to someone else most of the time. I got in the habit from other techs saying it too)

I always loved the “look” of the LW......reminded me of the control unit is the engineer’s cab.....I always loved this promotional picture from the catalogs.... highlighting each transformer with what it could do.....

I suspect that a dual motor F3 with all the lights and those few accessories is probably at the limit of what the LW can handle.....but Lionel really knew how to showcase a product!

Peter

@Putnam Division posted:

I always loved the “look” of the LW......reminded me of the control unit is the engineer’s cab.....I always loved this promotional picture from the catalogs.... highlighting each transformer with what it could do.....

I suspect that a dual motor F3 with all the lights and those few accessories is probably at the limit of what the LW can handle.....but Lionel really knew how to showcase a product!

Peter

Love catalog and cover artwork. I'm fine with the "less than accurate" scale or portrayal within the rendition. To me, good artwork fosters much more "imagination" within me that a well done photograph.

LW's:

Almost bought one a few weeks ago, instead opting for the 1033 as my workbench transformer. However, after reading all of the glowing reports of 'em... kind of wish I had an LW as well now.

Andre

Hey Putnam,

The ad you posted shows the TW being better than the LW.  Is it?   I had a TW for many years as a kid, and could run several HO trains off of it simultaneously.     But for O gauge, would you recommend the TW over the LW?

Reason I ask is, there is a really nice looking one down at the local train shop for only $45. He doesn't have an LW.

Thx,

@Mannyrock, the TW is an oddball transformer and most do not consider it more powerful/desirable than the LW from an operational perspective as it is actually two small 60 Watt transformers in one. Someone at Lionel thought there was a market for this unique configuration for single train layouts with a considerable amount of accessories. The text of this document goes a little bit further into all of that: http://www.olsenstoy.com/cd/transfmr/pstw1.pdf

Bottom line, the maximum power available from a TW tap is 50% of its total capacity where the LW can deliver all of its capacity to a tap.

Great info.  I'll forget the TW.

Mannyrock

Good idea on the TW. Personal experiences over the years have shown me the TW is not a reliable performer. They are problem prone, overheat because of 2 transformers in one case. That was a one time experiment that didn't work out so well. I'm sure there will be some who post the TW is a good transformer, but I haven't experienced that with over 40 years repairing them. On the other hand , the LW is a good, solid performer.

@Putnam Division posted:

I always loved the “look” of the LW......reminded me of the control unit is the engineer’s cab.....I always loved this promotional picture from the catalogs.... highlighting each transformer with what it could do.....

I suspect that a dual motor F3 with all the lights and those few accessories is probably at the limit of what the LW can handle.....but Lionel really knew how to showcase a product!

Peter

Highlight above is mine....

Peter,

You are so right.  Today's marketing folks would be complaining about "too much white space".  Lionel was the master of presentation.

Lou N

I won't try talk you out of the LW to  TW. I think the LW is the best PW single throttle transformer, and I have several models including 2 LWs, 2RWs, 2 1033s, 2 TWs, and a couple of small ones.

I've had good experience with the TW but perhaps because I recognize it's advertisement as a 175W is a stretch. If one reserves it for a small loop and then uses the extra ports for accessories, I THINK it's fine. My guess is that many of the repairs cited above were by people who tried to make into more than it is.

My first train set came with a LW.  It was able to handle the power needs of my childhood layout and many pinewood central and Christmas tree trains over the years.  The power cord was replaced, and I currently need to fix the whistle controller.  When I built my first adult O gauge train layout I went with a KW for mainline power.  Originally I did it because the KW had slightly more power, but I came to appreciate the second variable output on the KW for controlling accessories independent of track voltage.  This was all before more modern transformers became available.

While I don't regret going with the KW there are a couple of things that I think are better with the LW.  The LW's simple handle has caused no problems while the KW's knobs have broken off more than once.  The LW's simple whistle/horn button is better than the KW's lever.  (My KW whistle controller is also shot.)  The LW is also more compact.  I also thought on my transformers the LW circuit breaker threw more reliably than the KW's but that could just be specific to my particular transformers.  Both transformers are currently similar in price.

Back in my Postwar trains days I bought an LW because it looks ultra cool.   I sold it about a month later because in my opinion the handle goes the wrong way and I could not get used to that.  (Counterclockwise to increase voltage is wrong .)   And yes, I have the same comment about the TW.   1033, 1034, ZW handles are all fine with me.  KW handles makes no sense to me at all.  

As Bob2 would say..Opinion

@Lou N posted:

Today's marketing folks would be complaining about "too much white space". 

Haute cuisine...the new white space.

@John Sethian posted:

in my opinion the handle goes the wrong way and I could not get used to that.  (Counterclockwise to increase voltage is wrong .)

As Bob2 would say..Opinion

Not trying to change your mind.  But I think on "real" diesel locomotives,  you have to move the handle forward, i.e., left-to-right, to increase the throttle.  Maybe this is what Lionel was trying to achieve with both the LW and the KW?  Just thinking aloud.

Edit: BZZT!  I was wrong.  See the real answer below!

@Ted S posted:

Not trying to change your mind.  But I think on "real" diesel locomotives,  you have to move the handle forward, i.e., left-to-right, to increase the throttle. 

Nope.

When seated facing forward, the throttle is off to your left side. You pull them toward the rear of the loco to increase, and shove them toward the front of the loco to decrease. (Thus if turned and facing the control stand, the throttle would move right to left to increase and vice versa.)

It's been that way in all the 1st Gen, 2nd Gen, and "modern" diesels I've run, and been in. (Except for desk top controls. They're in front of you in an awkward position.)

Andre

No, no, no Hold the chicken, & mayo, &lettuce,& butter and bring me the wheat toast. 

  Graphics are about the braging rights to simplicity, artist rep, or the software used now; not knowledgeablely arranged content meant to lure your eyes into encountering as many facts as possible before you can stop yourself.

Today you break an established ad rule to get noticed despite any loss of effectiveness in doing it...i.e. the concept sells well to board rooms desperate to ride a "new" style wave; but falls short in practice imo.

"Reading bad. Help... Alexis..um Alexander..um ALaxative?" 😧.. Crap-darn!😲

@laming posted:

Nope.

When seated facing forward, the throttle is off to your left side. You pull them toward the rear of the loco to increase, and shove them toward the front of the loco to decrease. (Thus if turned and facing the control stand, the throttle would move right to left to increase and vice versa.)

It's been that way in all the 1st Gen, 2nd Gen, and "modern" diesels I've run, and been in. (Except for desk top controls. They're in front of you in an awkward position.)

Andre

Ive run mostly GP'S,  SD'S and an old RS3.  All are right- off, left - increase..

I think the LW is a fine-looking great piece of equipment with those great big orange buttons and lighted handle, but I ran mostly pre and postwar, so the starting voltage wasn't a big drawback for me.  That, and the (sorry) backwards handle rotation were the only negatives for me.