LIRR Grand Central access

I saw that today too.  The RR said that it's not going to prevent them from opening the station. The new tunnels are connected so they could transfer passengers onto another train.

The bigger story here is that the largest commuter railroad in the country doesn't have a spare locomotive available. And the fact that they  must have known this for many years.....

Bob

The LIRR has used MP15's in "protect" service for years for Jamaica to Penn.  Might there be a clearance issue in the new tunnels?

Jon

When I retired from there in 2005 they were getting ready to put out an RFP for a rescue engine that would conform to the known clearances and would be dual powered, such as diesel and battery. But, the advertised opening date back then was 2009. What progress!

Yes there are clearance issues with the height. Also some questions of diesels in a tunnel, perhaps a good opportunity for something battery powered as it wouldn't need to operate for a long time just to pull a train out of the tunnel.

From the article (Newsday has a paywall so the full article can't be posted)

"Kevin Sexton, general chairman of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and Trainmen Division 269, which represents LIRR train operators, said because the new station was built below existing Grand Central Terminal, a rescue locomotive would have to be powerful enough to tow a train while up a relatively steep grade.

Still, Sexton said he did not believe the lack of such a locomotive should be a cause for major concern among riders, because passengers could be safely evacuated.

“In a worst-case scenario, which is highly unlikely, everybody is still going to find a way out,” Sexton said. “I’m not overly concerned because passengers and crew members are not going to be trapped down there. There is always going to be a means of egress.” "

On a related note- the LIRR received FRA approval for the PTC systems installed as part of the project.

Here's one of the MP-15's that lives east of Jamaica Station

Stunningly beautiful. "DON'T TURN ON THE WIPERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just make believe the windshield is covered in RainEx."

@452 Card posted:

Stunningly beautiful. "DON'T TURN ON THE WIPERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just make believe the windshield is covered in RainEx.

That is E Yard with the Atlantic Branch on each side of it.

To get back on topic, none of the current LIRR motive power that I am aware of can be used due to clearance/exhaust issues. That said, and I am opening a Pandora's box here: The FL-9 locos would have been a viable rescue fleet. A back-to-back brace of these units would easily haul 12 MU cars up a steep grade on 750VDC, and the verboten D-Mode could be used as a last resort. What a waste of money for them to be assigned (along with the MNCRR units)  to the dead line in Harmon North. Sure, the reliability issues were present, but were never given a chance to be addressed due to the progress of the program to purchase a new dual-mode fleet. This post has the teeth to go into another thread about that endevour, so lets not go there. Just saying!

When I had my house in Baltimore, my layout had a "Hudson tunnel," that my Amtrak and NJT trains used to access "Algonquin Island."  I built a hinged trap door behind a building that I could reach into with my arm to fix any trains in distress. I can't believe the LIRR didn't think of that.

Semper Fi Marine

@452 Card posted:

Semper Fi Marine

Semper Fi!!

“In a worst-case scenario, which is highly unlikely, everybody is still going to find a way out,” Sexton said. “I’m not overly concerned because passengers and crew members are not going to be trapped down there. There is always going to be a means of egress.” "

Taking a page from the White Star Line

The subways have Diesels that are probably small enough, but Macy*s doesn't tell Gimbels, apparently.

From what I've been hearing over time, is that the LIRR tunnels for East Side Access are basically the same vertical clearance as the 63rd Street subway tunnels above them (meaning even the overhead-equiped EMU's are too tall for them). Seeing as these tunnels (specifically the prefabricated sections that were placed into the East River crossing) were designed in the 1960's that's just... headdesk-inducing.

---PCJ

The 63 street tube would be the only spot on that line that would need a rescue engine   As Patrick said that tube is one and the same as the NYC subway above it   There are staircases that connect both and passengers can easily be evacuated to a rescue train on the tracks above them    The subways use diesels all through the system.  The newer diesels are lower emission.   The tunnels in Manhattan all have emergency exits pretty close together so a rescue diesel is a luxury not a necessity

FWIW Jersey Transit has the same problem with the Hudson river tunnels (or at least that is what a train crew told me), that they cannot push a stalled train with a diesel through those tunnels. I was on stuck trains, and what they would do is pull them back to the Penn Station Newark station on the Amtrak/NJ transit line that goes along the shore, and we would transfer there. I also know they don't like using diesels in tunnels (for obvious reasons), but what the train crew told me was none of the diesels they had could fit in the hudson river tunnels.   

I would think with a stalled train that it would be a lot better/easier/safer to have a diesel/battery unit (assuming power is out) that could push the train into grand central (or pull it out of the tunnel towards queens) rather than evacuate a train full of people out of emergency exits. Obviously in the case of an immediate danger, like a fire or whatever, evacuating would prob be the way to go I would think. 

A stalled train and a power outage are two very different animals   Stalled trains are rescued by another train that is designated as a rescue train   No passengers on the rescue train  Its just another set of third rail powered cars that couples to the stalled train and pulls or pushes it after the brakes are cut out on the stalled train.   A power outage is when you need diesels

@bluelinec4 posted:

A stalled train and a power outage are two very different animals   Stalled trains are rescued by another train that is designated as a rescue train   No passengers on the rescue train  Its just another set of third rail powered cars that couples to the stalled train and pulls or pushes it after the brakes are cut out on the stalled train.   A power outage is when you need diesels

Thanks, that makes sense. In the case with NJ transit I was talking about it was with power outages, not a stalled train as such. This happened a lot on the line that I had ridden, where it was transitioning from the Morris and Essex line onto Amtrak (two different power systems), there is a dead spot and a lot of times the engine would stall there.

I got a Facebook post this morning from the NY Transit museum announcing that Grand Central Madison is set to open tomorrow. They included a link to some interesting info on the history of the project…

http://www.nytransitmuseum.org/gcm/

Wow, that's a great history and engineering lesson. Lots to digest and great photos. Thanks for the link.

Looks like a great article Paul.

I bookmarked it for reading later.

Thanks for sharing.

Bob

There was a piece on the local NY news tonight which included two amazing stats… the LIRR platforms are approximately 17 stories below street level and, to get there, you have to go down the longest escalator in NY - it takes around a minute and a half from top to bottom (or vice-a-versa). I wouldn’t want to try and walk up that far

Here is a link to the piece from the ABC station in NYC - there is a short video that takes you on a walk from street level to the LIRR platforms:

https://abc7ny.com/lirr-long-i...side-acces/12729299/

Thank you...looking forward to checking it out...17 stories below the ground is crazy!

Someplace I have a section drawing of GCT from the street down to the platforms. If I can find it I will share.

Its mind boggling that tracks are close to 200' below grade.

My College is opening a new campus center on the east side. I plan to use the new service early and often. With my camera firmly in hand of course.

Bob