Anyone running Protothrottle on 3-rail?

Garfield, I had the same question for them and got the same answer.  I think there may be a few more 3 railers out there interested in their product than they realize.  I really think they should consider sending out a loaner or two to some of the tech guys in the forum to enable to test them in the field.  Without a doubt I would be in the market for one or two.  Garfield if you decide to get one please keep us up to date on your findings.

The Proto throttles connect to the DCC system, not directly to the loco.  Unless you have a DCC system, ie Digitrax, NCE, etc, changing the switch on the loco won't do anything. Once you have a DCC system in place, it should work.  Please note that you would have to switch between the DCS and DCC system are they cannot run together.

Brendan

@Weener Dog posted:

Garfield, I had the same question for them and got the same answer.  I think there may be a few more 3 railers out there interested in their product than they realize.  I really think they should consider sending out a loaner or two to some of the tech guys in the forum to enable to test them in the field.  Without a doubt I would be in the market for one or two.  Garfield if you decide to get one please keep us up to date on your findings.

I'll certainly post back to this thread if I find out more, but for me to test is would require buying an MTH loco, set it to 3-rail DCC (I don't believe the new locos have both external switches any more so this requires opening up the loco and adding a switch), buy a DCC system (unless my older 1.3 AMP NCE system would work just for the test) and then buy the protothrottle. That's a big investment just to see if it works!

@Brendan posted:

The Proto throttles connect to the DCC system, not directly to the loco.  Unless you have a DCC system, ie Digitrax, NCE, etc, changing the switch on the loco won't do anything. Once you have a DCC system in place, it should work.  Please note that you would have to switch between the DCS and DCC system are they cannot run together.

Brendan

Thanks, yes, this is my understanding. Kind of surprised that nobody has actually tried this.

The NCE powercab would work for one loco; I have done it.

@Garfield Irwin posted:

Thanks, yes, this is my understanding. Kind of surprised that nobody has actually tried this.

Tried DCC or tried the Proto throttle?

I have tried the Proto throttle and found it cumbersome. The novelty wore off quickly.

Brendan

@Brendan posted:

The NCE powercab would work for one loco; I have done it.

Tried DCC or tried the Proto throttle?

I have tried the Proto throttle and found it cumbersome. The novelty wore off quickly.

Brendan

Interesting comment. I do wonder if the PT might get "old" but it's still something I'd like to try. Probably makes more sense using it on the main line vs. a switching layout like I have though.

UPDATE:

Well for better or worse I've decided to try Protothrottle on my 3-rail switching layout. Since my interests are leaning more towards slow paced diesel switching operations on a "detailed" layout rather than running long trains in loops (my modeling gurus are Boomer Dioramas and Serge Lebel) the Protothrottle fits that scenario. Fortunately I have only a couple of Lionel locos so buying into MTH to test 3-Rail DCC is entirely doable. If it works really well I'll just have a couple of Lionel locos to sell.

Since my old NCE Powercab was still running v1.1 I've ordered an upgrade chip which is on the way (necessary for Protothrottle to run). Today I picked up a gold Protothrottle and NCE Radio link from Otter Valley Railway here in Tillsonburg, Ontario. I also found a suitable MTH SW1 PS3 engine from The Public Delivery Track. It a Rail King without the external DCS/DCC switch so I'll have to pop the cab and pull a jumper in order to switch it from DCS to DCC but that's easy enough to do.

So in a few weeks we'll see how well this setup works -- wish me luck!

Garfield, happy to hear you're proceeding with Protothrottle.   Gentlemen such as Boomer and Thomas Klimoski have opened my eyes to a different type of operations (small switching layouts) which I personally think the Protothrottle would be a very valuable tool.  A chance to savor the operating experience and kick back and relax with your favorite beverage while operating prototypically.  Granted this isn't for everyone, but I for one enjoy the relaxed pace. Best of luck my friend.

Dwayne

@Weener Dog posted:

Garfield, happy to hear you're proceeding with Protothrottle.   Gentlemen such as Boomer and Thomas Klimoski have opened my eyes to a different type of operations (small switching layouts) which I personally think the Protothrottle would be a very valuable tool.  A chance to savor the operating experience and kick back and relax with your favorite beverage while operating prototypically.  Granted this isn't for everyone, but I for one enjoy the relaxed pace. Best of luck my friend.

Dwayne

Thanks Dwayne -- my thinking exactly, but it's all theory until put into practice!

I'd be interested to hear your feedback.  My go to throttle for switching is a NCE Cab06.  It reverses the engine if you go counterclockwise past midnight position and forward clockwise past midnight position (similar to Lionchief controllers but more ergonomic). In NCE terms, it is called yard mode.

Brendan

@Brendan posted:

I'd be interested to hear your feedback.  My go to throttle for switching is a NCE Cab06.  It reverses the engine if you go counterclockwise past midnight position and forward clockwise past midnight position (similar to Lionchief controllers but more ergonomic). In NCE terms, it is called yard mode.

Brendan

For sure. My Lionel universal remote is similar and is very easy to use, of course, but the idea of a more prototypical throttle for slower switching ops is appealing. That said, I'm a little concerned about the lack of programmable buttons on the PT and hope I don't mind menu diving too much.

Ok, so for those that may be interested here's a update on my foray into the MTH DCC world.

The new 3-rail MTH PS3 SW1 Railking arrived but unfortunately MTH no longer include an external DCS/DCC switch on Railking locos so I had to remove the body and cut(!) a grey wire to convert the loco to DCC. (It was no big deal but a suspicious person might begin to wondering if MTH is really that serious about supporting DCC. )

Anyway, I also upgraded my NCE Powercab with the latest chip (1.65B) which was required to run Protothrottle.

I hooked up the NCE to my small 3-rail layout (plenty of drops including one on each end of every switch), placed the DCC-ready SW1 switcher on the layout and powered everything up. To my relief the loco ran (well, sort of) with basic sounds. So then I attached the PT radio board to the NCE plug-board, turn on the PT and voila! I could control the loco via the PT right out of the box, including some basic functions like the bell and horn. The PT throttle, reverser and dynamic brake controls all functioned without issue. Whew!

BUT it quickly became clear that getting the SW1 to operate prototypically is going to take a LOT of fine tuning, and after my initial experience I'm not at all certain of being successful. This is my first MTH loco, and I'm no DCC expert and I've never used Protothrottle before, so the learning curve is greater than a 4% slope! There are many, many, many options and settings settings to learn and nothing is simple it seems. It took me a while just to figure out how to set momentum values (i.e. CV3 & CV4) which required setting CV52=1 and then rebooting the system. There's lots of quirky stuff going on.

Fortunately I'm able to program the MTH decoder using the NCE Powercab in either programming mode or on the main -- both worked equally well.

So the momentum variables are working, but the response is very "crude". I'll need to look at the speed curve options next, if I can figure them out. But it's already clear that the MTH decoder is no loksound 5, and that could be a serious hurdle to achieve success.

But my biggest concern is that the new Railking SW1 runs really rough at low speeds. It slows down on curves and over switches for some inexplicable reason and often jerks to a stop at slow speeds then lurches forward and it has a mind of it's own when it comes to momentum. I'm hoping this is just a break-in issue but my Lionel locos exhibited none of these issues right out of the box, so I'm not sure if is really the loco or something with the DCC system. But the rough running is is a really big problem because if I can't get the loco to settle down, there's no point in even thinking about trying to fine-tuning protothrottle operations -- if I can't get solve the rough slow running (I have a switching layout) that may end the idea of running Protothrottle on 3-rail for me.

Stay tuned...

I watch all of Serge Lebel’s videos on You Tube. This one may be of interest to you.

https://youtu.be/6OA5sOg5EFo?si=PBb5ZLzJ7E2TMXng

@Dave_C posted:

I watch all of Serge Lebel’s videos on You Tube. This one may be of interest to you.

https://youtu.be/6OA5sOg5EFo?si=PBb5ZLzJ7E2TMXng

Thanks, I've seen that -- I watch a lot of Serge's work. His most recent on on the custom HO layout was fascinating.

One thing that was mentioned but he didn’t elaborate on it. When he put the new decoder in. He wired the motors in series. I don’t know enough about DCC to know if this is a common thing as many just have the one motor in a diesel.

Yes, I remember him saying that. If doing that improves running characteristics, why wouldn't the manufactures also be shipping them that way? Regardless, I'm hoping to avoid having to install my own sound decoder -- that shouldn't be necessary in a new loco this day and age.

When I get home today, I am going to revisit DCC with one of my MTH locos.  I think I have some older ones that have the switch.  If you did need more  power for some reason, NCE has the SB5 booster although there are other cheaper booster options such as Tam Valley DCC booster ($60) that you can power off an old computer laptop charger.  I have 8 of those for all the power districts at our HO club layout.

Brendan

2-Railer here.  If you are determined to try to get this work.  I would suggest removing the MTH electronics and installing an ESU Loksound V5 decoder and doing as another poster stated and wire the motors in series.  Wiring the motors in series will cut the top speed in half but will also give better resolution at  slow speed.  Us 2-railers often sell the old MTH electronics to 3-railers wanting to upgrade to PS3, so you can recoup some of the money you shell out for new ESU Loksound decoder by selling off the PS3 electronics.  Wiring up the new decoder to make it run and have sound is pretty easy but wiring up the lighting is usually the hardest part as you have to reverse engineer how the lighting is supposed to work on the PS3 electronics and hook it up to the new decoder functions, which may also require adding some dropping resistors for LEDs, if MTH PS3 decoders had them integrated into their decoder electronics and not included externally in the lighting circuit.

Yes, MTH DCC support in their PS3 locos is not that great when it comes to configurability or even running characteristics.  However, from the ESU Loksound aside from your "non-manual changing CVs" programming options, there is a free software tool called JMRI or you can purchase the ESU brand programmer.  The ESU programmer with included software runs around $150.  The free JMRI software that will allow you to do configurations of CVs from your PC but will not allow you to upload sound files.  Therefore, your decoder will have to be purchased with the correct sound file pre-installed, but vendors, such as Tony's Train Exchange, can do that for you.  The ESU programmer allows you to upload sound files and has a nice custom interface for setting all of the driving, functions, and sound characteristics.   All sound files can be downloaded off the ESU web site for free.

Lastly, another option for a great-running switching locomotive is to get a 3-Rail Atlas SW7, or SW9, SW1200 as these locomotives had a super smooth horizontal drive in them, even the 3-Rail version.  You will still need to rip out the old Atlas 3-Rail electronics and replace them with an ESU Loksound V5 size L decoder but running characteristics are fantastic out of the box, especially nice for a switching layout.   

In either case, if you go with installing a new ESU Loksound decoder, then a really nice sound upgrade is to install a Tang Band 1925S speaker in place of the stock MTH speaker.  The low-frequency (bass) sound quality goes up exponentially with this speaker.  Adding this speaker will most likely require making some custom bracketry inside the loco to mount the speaker as it will be a completely different form factor than the stock MTH speaker.  3D printing a custom bracket also comes in handy here, too.

There are options to make this work really nice but it is going take some more $$$ and spending some intimate time with your soldering iron.

Scott

@Garfield Irwin posted:

Yes, I remember him saying that. If doing that improves running characteristics, why wouldn't the manufactures also be shipping them that way? Regardless, I'm hoping to avoid having to install my own sound decoder -- that shouldn't be necessary in a new loco this day and age.

Manufacturers, especially 3-Rail manufacturers, do not do this because it cuts the top speed in half since the same voltage is split between two motors.  For some reason, 3-Railers like to run their trains like jack rabbits around their layout.  It can also wreak havoc on the running characteristics on some electronics that have speed sensors on the flywheel, such as MTH does, so each motor/feedback loop assembly needs to be handled separately (in parallel) by the controlling electronics. 

Scott

@Scott Kay posted:

Manufacturers, especially 3-Rail manufacturers, do not do this because it cuts the top speed in half since the same voltage is split between two motors.  For some reason, 3-Railers like to run their trains like jack rabbits around their layout.  It can also wreak havoc on the running characteristics on some electronics that have speed sensors on the flywheel, such as MTH does, so each motor/feedback loop assembly needs to be handled separately (in parallel) by the controlling electronics.

Scott

Ok, that makes sense. I really don't like the idea of opening that can'o worms!

@Scott Kay posted:

2-Railer here.  If you are determined to try to get this work.  I would suggest removing the MTH electronics and installing an ESU Loksound V5 decoder and doing as another poster stated and wire the motors in series.  Wiring the motors in series will cut the top speed in half but will also give better resolution at  slow speed.  Us 2-railers often sell the old MTH electronics to 3-railers wanting to upgrade to PS3, so you can recoup some of the money you shell out for new ESU Loksound decoder by selling off the PS3 electronics.  Wiring up the new decoder to make it run and have sound is pretty easy but wiring up the lighting is usually the hardest part as you have to reverse engineer how the lighting is supposed to work on the PS3 electronics and hook it up to the new decoder functions, which may also require adding some dropping resistors for LEDs, if MTH PS3 decoders had them integrated into their decoder electronics and not included externally in the lighting circuit.

Yes, MTH DCC support in their PS3 locos is not that great when it comes to configurability or even running characteristics.  However, from the ESU Loksound aside from your "non-manual changing CVs" programming options, there is a free software tool called JMRI or you can purchase the ESU brand programmer.  The ESU programmer with included software runs around $150.  The free JMRI software that will allow you to do configurations of CVs from your PC but will not allow you to upload sound files.  Therefore, your decoder will have to be purchased with the correct sound file pre-installed, but vendors, such as Tony's Train Exchange, can do that for you.  The ESU programmer allows you to upload sound files and has a nice custom interface for setting all of the driving, functions, and sound characteristics.   All sound files can be downloaded off the ESU web site for free.

Lastly, another option for a great-running switching locomotive is to get a 3-Rail Atlas SW7, or SW9, SW1200 as these locomotives had a super smooth horizontal drive in them, even the 3-Rail version.  You will still need to rip out the old Atlas 3-Rail electronics and replace them with an ESU Loksound V5 size L decoder but running characteristics are fantastic out of the box, especially nice for a switching layout.   

In either case, if you go with installing a new ESU Loksound decoder, then a really nice sound upgrade is to install a Tang Band 1925S speaker in place of the stock MTH speaker.  The low-frequency (bass) sound quality goes up exponentially with this speaker.  Adding this speaker will most likely require making some custom bracketry inside the loco to mount the speaker as it will be a completely different form factor than the stock MTH speaker.  3D printing a custom bracket also comes in handy here, too.

There are options to make this work really nice but it is going take some more $$$ and spending some intimate time with your soldering iron.

Scott

Thanks for the comments Scott -- lots to think about. Not sure I want to go to this much work for my small 3-rail shelf layout but will consider going 2-rail DCC/Protothrottle with my future layout if I can't get this to work reasonably well as-is.

@Brendan posted:

When I get home today, I am going to revisit DCC with one of my MTH locos.  I think I have some older ones that have the switch.  If you did need more  power for some reason, NCE has the SB5 booster although there are other cheaper booster options such as Tam Valley DCC booster ($60) that you can power off an old computer laptop charger.  I have 8 of those for all the power districts at our HO club layout.

Brendan

I'll test the track voltage under load to see if lack of power is part of the problem.

Final(?) update:

Ok, so I've decided to park the idea of running Protothrottle on 3-rail for now. I think anyone who is interested in the Protothrottle naturally wants to runs trains prototypically, which requires an excellent running locomotive to start with, and the very best DCC technology to support the fine-tuning that is essential for prototypical operations. The MTH Railking SW1 I bought is running smoother after some lubrication but it's clear that it's not the best candidate for a Protothrottle.

So I'm going to stick with my two Lionel locos (an SW8 and GP30) which run beautifully on my 3-rail system with the simply Lionel universal remote. But for my future basement shelf layout I'm going to investigate using the Protothrottle on either a 2-rail setup w/LoKsound or an HO (gasp!) layout.

Thank you for all the input...at least I'm a little more knowledgable that when I started down this rabbit hole!

Cheers!

try running the engine under DCS maybe at a friend's house or local hobby shop. I bet if you set the accel/decel rates at 1, you'd be happier.

Probably not going to be perfect, but better.

If you do, reset the engine before you leave DCS.

@Engineer-Joe posted:

try running the engine under DCS maybe at a friend's house or local hobby shop. I bet if you set the accel/decel rates at 1, you'd be happier.

Probably not going to be perfect, but better.

If you do, reset the engine before you leave DCS.

I'm sure it runs just fine under DCS but I don't have a controller and don't want to buy one -- when it comes to 3-rail I'm happy with my Lionel stuff, but I really wish Lionel would release a full-featured hand held throttle -- I hate apps.

@Engineer-Joe posted:

try running the engine under DCS maybe at a friend's house or local hobby shop. I bet if you set the accel/decel rates at 1, you'd be happier.

Probably not going to be perfect, but better.

If you do, reset the engine before you leave DCS.

I've done it. It's pretty impressive, but like the prototype, it takes forever to stop. Best to keep it under 15mph.

@Garfield Irwin posted:

I'm sure it runs just fine under DCS but I don't have a controller and don't want to buy one -- when it comes to 3-rail I'm happy with my Lionel stuff, but I really wish Lionel would release a full-featured hand held throttle -- I hate apps.

I'm guessing that @Engineer-Joe's point might be that if it runs well at slow speed under DCS you might be able to tweak the CVs to get better performance, but if it doesn't run well under DCS then the poor slow-speed running is either a defective loco, just the nature of the beast, or a break-in issue.  You might also be able to accomplish the same test by running in conventional mode.

Enjoying this thread as I've seen the Protothrottle and it's a really cool concept; unfortunately it's too pricey for me.  Hopefully they'll sell enough of them so that the price can come down.  I would pay a premium over a regular DCC throttle, but pricing it at 2-1/2 to 3 times the price is more than I'm willing to go.

I wonder how many people use the DCC capability in PS3 locos.  I'm guessing not many, especially in the Railking line, which might explain the absence of a switch to go from DCS to DCC.

Thanks for posting about your experience.

@Mallard4468 posted:

I'm guessing that @Engineer-Joe's point might be that if it runs well at slow speed under DCS you might be able to tweak the CVs to get better performance, but if it doesn't run well under DCS then the poor slow-speed running is either a defective loco, just the nature of the beast, or a break-in issue.  You might also be able to accomplish the same test by running in conventional mode.

Enjoying this thread as I've seen the Protothrottle and it's a really cool concept; unfortunately it's too pricey for me.  Hopefully they'll sell enough of them so that the price can come down.  I would pay a premium over a regular DCC throttle, but pricing it at 2-1/2 to 3 times the price is more than I'm willing to go.

I wonder how many people use the DCC capability in PS3 locos.  I'm guessing not many, especially in the Railking line, which might explain the absence of a switch to go from DCS to DCC.

Thanks for posting about your experience.

Thanks - There's nothing wrong with the loco which did smooth out after a bit of lubrication but ideally needs a more run time to properly break-in. (Moot point now since its for sale on eBay).  There may also be a power limitation (my NCE Powercab only outputs 2A which should be enough to drive one loco on 3-rail, but maybe not?) Anyway, I'm not really interested in buying the latest technology just to tear it all out and install a new Loksound 5 without knowing it will meet my (high) expectations. I did enjoy using the Protothrottle for a short time, which was enough for me to keep it for the future. I think Protothrottle would be a good match with a 2-rail unit from 3rd Rail with Loksound 5, for example. Too bad I don't see a switcher in their plans.

One thing I would like to point out is that you say that you want to potentially progress to a 2-Rail layout in the future (and we would love to have you join the dark side).  However, I think you need to reset expectations on your choices for seeking almost any variety of 2-Rail locomotive with the latest technology integrated is going to be almost slim to none.  Therefore, what I am saying is that if you want what you are asking for (a smooth running 2-Rail locomotive - preferably an  end cab diesel switcher with the latest DCC decoder installed, then you are probably going to have to do that work yourself (or hire someone) regardless of what your feelings are about what SHOULD be available this day in age.

We 2-Railers are a hardy bunch and accept the limitations in availability and assemble the components that we want to get net outcome.  2-Rail does not have the following that can drive manufacturers to do what we desire but they do listen to us from time-to-time and we eventually got Sunset to move off of the QSI decoders and move to the superior ESU Loksound for their 2-Rail DCC equipped locos.

As for future 2-Rail switchers, your choices are probably going to be that you have to revamp what is already on market from Atlas or older 2-Rail Brass.  Both of these will need extensive "electronics re-work" to get them to the point that you are wanting to get to, electronics-wise.  Even if Atlas were to re-run (which many 2-Railers have been asking for) their SW7 / 9 / 1200 and MP15 end cab switchers (all really great runners) then these will most likely come with some form of MTH DCS electronics this time around anyway and not ESU Loksound decoders (which Atlas used for a short time before switching to DCS) since Atlas now has a license agreement with MTH to use their DCS electronics when Atlas acquired a bunch of the MTH Premier line locomotive and rolling stock tooling.

Being that DCS is a proprietary MTH technology and they really want to also sell you all the auxiliary components from their DCS ecosystem, e.g. throttles, command stations, booster, etc., then MTH really has little incentive to make extensive improvements to the DCC capabilities side of their PS3 electronics.  MTH really only added DCC capability to PS3 since they wanted to maintain just one electronics platform for all their locomotives (both 3-Rail and Scale Wheeled versions) and it made a great marketing bullet for those that wanted flexibility on the control systems that could be used to run MTH locomotives, e.g. if a home layout used DCS, then you select DCS, but if your railroad club layout used DCC, then flip a switch and you were off and running on DCC.

As for Sunset offering end cab switchers, not highly likely that will ever happen.  The reason is that the tooling costs to make an SD40-2 (currently shipping from Sunset) is about the same as it is to make, say, an SW1, so the price of an SW1 will still be around a similar ~$700 (or more) range.  With that kind of price point, especially when compared to a similar Atlas end cab switcher in the $400-$500 price range (or less if you can get it on the secondhand market), then it is almost impossible to get the minimum quantity reservations needed for Sunset to go forward with an end cab switcher project.  Most modelers have it their head that little switchers should cost little dollars.   Therefore, it is an easier sell for Sunset to just offer larger locomotive models and not try to overcome this stigma.

Scott

@Scott Kay posted:

One thing I would like to point out is that you say that you want to potentially progress to a 2-Rail layout in the future (and we would love to have you join the dark side).  However, I think you need to reset expectations on your choices for seeking almost any variety of 2-Rail locomotive with the latest technology integrated is going to be almost slim to none.  Therefore, what I am saying is that if you want what you are asking for (a smooth running 2-Rail locomotive - preferably an  end cab diesel switcher with the latest DCC decoder installed, then you are probably going to have to do that work yourself (or hire someone) regardless of what your feelings are about what SHOULD be available this day in age.

We 2-Railers are a hardy bunch and accept the limitations in availability and assemble the components that we want to get net outcome.  2-Rail does not have the following that can drive manufacturers to do what we desire but they do listen to us from time-to-time and we eventually got Sunset to move off of the QSI decoders and move to the superior ESU Loksound for their 2-Rail DCC equipped locos.

As for future 2-Rail switchers, your choices are probably going to be that you have to revamp what is already on market from Atlas or older 2-Rail Brass.  Both of these will need extensive "electronics re-work" to get them to the point that you are wanting to get to, electronics-wise.  Even if Atlas were to re-run (which many 2-Railers have been asking for) their SW7 / 9 / 1200 and MP15 end cab switchers (all really great runners) then these will most likely come with some form of MTH DCS electronics this time around anyway and not ESU Loksound decoders (which Atlas used for a short time before switching to DCS) since Atlas now has a license agreement with MTH to use their DCS electronics when Atlas acquired a bunch of the MTH Premier line locomotive and rolling stock tooling.

Being that DCS is a proprietary MTH technology and they really want to also sell you all the auxiliary components from their DCS ecosystem, e.g. throttles, command stations, booster, etc., then MTH really has little incentive to make extensive improvements to the DCC capabilities side of their PS3 electronics.  MTH really only added DCC capability to PS3 since they wanted to maintain just one electronics platform for all their locomotives (both 3-Rail and Scale Wheeled versions) and it made a great marketing bullet for those that wanted flexibility on the control systems that could be used to run MTH locomotives, e.g. if a home layout used DCS, then you select DCS, but if your railroad club layout used DCC, then flip a switch and you were off and running on DCC.

As for Sunset offering end cab switchers, not highly likely that will ever happen.  The reason is that the tooling costs to make an SD40-2 (currently shipping from Sunset) is about the same as it is to make, say, an SW1, so the price of an SW1 will still be around a similar ~$700 (or more) range.  With that kind of price point, especially when compared to a similar Atlas end cab switcher in the $400-$500 price range (or less if you can get it on the secondhand market), then it is almost impossible to get the minimum quantity reservations needed for Sunset to go forward with an end cap switcher project.  Most modelers have it their head that a little switchers should cost little dollars.   Therefore, it is an easier sell for Sunset to just offer larger locomotive models and not try to overcome this stigma.

Scott

Excellent commentary Scott -- I appreciate you taking the time to write that. I won't be making any decisions on a new layout for a while...my 3-rail shelf switcher still needs lots of love, but in the mean time I'll think about the options. I'm not "electrically literate" so paying Tony's Trains to do up a custom loco isn't outside the realm of possibility either -- all I need is 1 or 3 to be happy. But it's nothing I need to decide right now. Of course HO has none of these drawbacks, but I just prefer the "impact" o-scale offers. Cheers!