1921 Tinplate is now 100 years old! Show us your 1921 items!

Beautiful

Steve

Not sure how old this little guy is. Don

I guess this fellow qualifies

And my Winteringham is positively dated to 1921 ( Thanks to @Arne ) live steam single oscillator ..

Catalog image courtesy of Arne !

Happy 100 years to all the 1921's !!!

@scale rail posted:

Not sure how old this little guy is. Don

He's a bit older than you thought Don .... Straight drive rods puts him about 1914-15 !

https://www.ivestrains.org/CD/...mlfiles/No1117_1.htm

American Flyer's 100 Station was introduced in 1921 also.  The 100 station featured the tall timbered section at the top of the building, the hip roof, and the actual bay window section (not the simulated bay window as found on the later 101 station).

NWL

And here are some of my Bing for Bassett Lowke 1921 Series beautiful lithographed coaches.

The represent the Southern, LMS, Midland, and Great Western (rare livery) coaches.

Lew Schneider

ALL wonderful artifacts that were once a child's toys.

Mea culpa.  Just after I posted the "1921" series Bing for Bassett Lowke coach photos I realized that they were actually not produced until  the following years.  1922 --GWR Lake and Midland; 1926-- LMS and 1929--Southern.  The only ones actually produced in 1921 were the London & Northwestern and here they are.  Lew

NO mea culpa necessary! Just THANKS for sharing! :-)

1917 Lionel Manufacturing Co. 203 Armored Engine.

Here is mine. It's a mixture of Bing and Ives, and dates to ~1915.

Chris

LVHR

I don't think I have any set or train related item I know was made specifically in 1921 but I do have a number of items that could easily date from 1921.

  In the U.S., prohibition kicked it into gear on January 17, 1920. Among the many things outlawed by prohibition were advertisements for liquor.  For Bing, this meant their beer reefers could no longer display the word "beer" on the sides of the cars.  As a result, starting in 1920,  Bing censored all of the beer reefers they exported to the U.S.  The car below is one of these cars and given the date of the start of prohibition it could have been made in 1921.

Censored Bing Beer Reefer

@Robert S. Butler posted:

I don't think I have any set or train related item I know was made specifically in 1921 but I do have a number of items that could easily date from 1921.

  In the U.S., prohibition kicked it into gear on January 17, 1920. Among the many things outlawed by prohibition were advertisements for liquor.  For Bing, this meant their beer reefers could no longer display the word "beer" on the sides of the cars.  As a result, starting in 1920,  Bing censored all of the beer reefers they exported to the U.S.  The car below is one of these cars and given the date of the start of prohibition it could have been made in 1921.

Censored Bing Beer Reefer

I had no idea that prohibition laws went so far as to "censor" toys!  Amazing!

Does anyone else have some more examples of "censored toys"?

Bob Nelson

@Robert S. Butler posted:

I don't think I have any set or train related item I know was made specifically in 1921 but I do have a number of items that could easily date from 1921.

  In the U.S., prohibition kicked it into gear on January 17, 1920. Among the many things outlawed by prohibition were advertisements for liquor.  For Bing, this meant their beer reefers could no longer display the word "beer" on the sides of the cars.  As a result, starting in 1920,  Bing censored all of the beer reefers they exported to the U.S.  The car below is one of these cars and given the date of the start of prohibition it could have been made in 1921.

Censored Bing Beer Reefer

They censored more than the word "beer" on that car, as the Schlitz's motto was "The Beer That Made Milwaukee Famous"  However, I suppose the car would have looked funny as "The XXXXX That Made Milwaukee Famous"

NWL

  NWL - I agree.  If the word "beer" was in the text line Bing censored the entire line.  I don't have any pictures of the censored Pabst or Budweiser cars but when you find them what you will see 

Pabst Car

for the Pabst car the line "The Beer of Quality" is blanked out

Budweiser Car

and for the Budweiser car the line "King of all bottled beers" is blanked out.

   My guess is from a production standpoint it was probably easier to cross out an entire line than try to line up a censor print to target a single word.

1921   Ives entered the standard gauge world to give Lionel a run for the money .... Christmas 1921 they othered the White 3243 set ...and one 1132 set  as a eye catching novelty in the big department stores ...

Ives new showroom featuring their new standard gauge line ...note White Ives observation in showcase 

Don

Wow! Some really great trains!! I bet the people making these had no idea any would make it this long?!

Joe Gozzo

Ives freight set (stock car not part of the original set.

Lionel 152 Olive Engine (type 5 motor)


Lionel 150 loco, 600,600 dark brown

Here’s my favorite car aged over 100 years, a Lionel #36 observation cars.  Available evidence indicates that it’s a 1915 car about to celebrate its 105^th birthday.  Here’s a summary of the dating exercise. 

But first the commercial.  I’m going to include photos of my car next to items in Greenburg’s Standard Gauge book.  Without Bruce’s efforts, this exercise couldn’t have happened – it’s been well worth the $100 price tag.

First both sides of the car.  The third photo is about the unusual window insert which have red shades, blue lavatory windows and a red door window.  In all three of my Lionel prewar references, the only place I could find that configuration was at the bottom of p. 342 of Greenburg.  The captions states it is 1915, dark blue, with type 8 railings.  Now I have one date possibility.

Next the observation railing.  It is what Greenburg calls a type 8, found only on 336, but no date .information.  It looks as it the use of the type 9 began in 1916.

Then there is the hole size of the steps.    According to Greenburg the original daimeter was .140", changed to .0125 about 1918.  Mine measure .01375, which indicates not later than 1918.

Finally is a photo of the end.  Look through the end door and you can see a rivet and clip type fastening.  It looks like a Greenburg type 5, which he says could have begun production “as early as 1914”. The coupler in the photo is a reproduction filed to match the dimensions of the original.  The original .is lost – may be found some day when cleaning my workshop area.one of the many corners of the basement

Putting it all together, I think the most likely date for my car is 1915, but maybe 1914, less likely 16 or 17.

I just noticed a discrepancy that I had overlooked last night.  It's the Lionel Lines marking on the end of the car along with the 36.  The tables in Greenberg show this only on cars mad in 1918 or later.  Could that be just because there were no earlier examples of this available for his photography.  Any comments on this discrepancy.

Here's another locomotive from before 1921, my 1918 Lionel 152 restoration (in progress).   It has a type 3 motor, first made in 1918 per volume 1 of Greenberg's new O gauge book.  The coupler is riveted to the frame, last used in 1917.  So I suppose my 152 was made in 1918 using a frame left over from 1917.

The engine is now in kit form, and I'm still cleaning the parts.  The body is ready for painting.

Here is the whole kit.  You can see parts from two 152's.  It's nice to have two of them so I can take the best of each kind of part.

This is a typical type 3 (Greenberg types) motor with riveted coupler.  The frames and motors from different years can be combined.  The thick wire sticking up attaches to the headlight.  The only wire I had to replace was from the brush holder to the field coil.

This photo is to show the pickup mechanism.  It had been altered badly by a former owner.  Fortunately, Iwas able to cut a roller from the other 152 and solder it to this one. I did have to use a screw that doesn't look quite right.

Here is detail of the coupler.  The white rolled up card stock is a simulation of the rivet.  A machinist friend is using his lathe to make a rivet with the correct dimensions.  The photo below my engine is from Greenberg's Guide to Lionel Trains O Gauge, volume 1.  IT's a great value for $100 if you want to projects like this one.

NW, great topic! Nice trains showing up too! I went mid years since Lionel's 158 was produced 1919- 1923ish. All original and great little runner. The outfit # would be 159 however no idea if they originally came with gray gondolas.

@John H. Shetler posted:

NW, great topic! Nice trains showing up too! I went mid years since Lionel's 158 was produced 1919- 1923ish. All original and great little runner. The outfit # would be 159 however no idea if they originally came with gray gondolas.

Greenberg's new (2017) O gauge book shows Lake Shore gons in gray with black lettering 1920-1927.  Page 129 of the book shows Outfit 157 with the gray locomotive 1920-1923.  It looks as if outfit 159 was the passenger train.

I need to correct myself on that outfit number.  I looked in the 1923 catalog.  Outfit 159 has the gons and 157 is passenger.

@Nation Wide Lines posted:

It is hard to believe this set is 100 years old!

American Flyer set 1201 from 1921.

The set came with a new end label on its box, which was featured in 1921 only. Note the end label is not showing the 3020, which was not introduced until 1922.

NWL

Beautiful. Thank you for sharing this gem!

I think this American Flyer 1218 is a little short of 100 but it's pretty close! It runs like a top....

This Ives 3242, 187 Buffet, and 188 Parlor set that has been in my family for 100 years. The set  was my wife’s Grandfather Harry’s childhood train set. As an adult Harry ran it for his children, and grandchildren on a seasonal Christmas layout . After he passed away it was given to me. When I got it it was dead shorting, so I had it repaired, (motor needed rewinding). Everything else is original, and now it’s good for another hundred years.

I am on the hunt for the matching 189 Observation car to complete the set. If you have one you want to part with, please let me know. My email is in my profile.

Thank you for sharing this video. Wow! If I find an appropriate 189 observation car I’ll nudge you.

@gene maag posted:

I think this American Flyer 1218 is a little short of 100 but it's pretty close! It runs like a top....

As a Milwaukee Road collector, I also own this set and like you I think it's fantastic!

Bob Nelson

@WRW posted:

Thank you for sharing this video. Wow! If I find an appropriate 189 observation car I’ll nudge you.

Thank you.

Here's a shot of the Flyer 1201 that hung around here for a few years, which now resides in Greg Turinetti's collection:

Features the relatively rare square headlight housing. The freight cars are of a later vintage.

PD

Hi PD,

the 1201 is living happily here among his cousins.  Here are some comparison photos of the square light version and a more common 1201.

Thanks again for helping me to add this variation to the collection back in about 2017.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

The 1201 with the square headlight would be a late engine.  This is evidenced by the style of handrails and the headlight itself.  My understanding of the 1201's with headlights is that the engines without headlights were not selling well, so Flyer added headlights to the engines, before finally discontinuing them in favor of the 1218 engines that already included headlights.

NWL

Anything that is 100 years old qualifies as an Antique.  So, you guys are now genuine Antique collectors!  (Instead of just Vintage collectors.)

Thanks for the great pictures.

Mannyrock

The 1201 looks great, Greg. Glad he’s amongst friends.

Paul

This Lionel No. 36 observation is of uncertain age, but I'm sure it's in the genuine antique category. 

The No. 36 was produced between 1912 and 1926.  I think it most likely that this one was 1918.  Here is the dating information that I found in Bruce Greenberg’s 2014 guide to Standard Gauge.

• The dark olive paint was used from 1912 to 1923. Lettering style above and below the windows and end markings were first seen in 1918.
• 
• The steps have a .140” diameter holes and no mounting tabs. The transition to a new style was “about 1918”.
• 
• Underside marks were begun in 1918 but this car doesn’t have them.
• 
• Both red and blue windows are seen only on photographs of cars thought to be 1917 or earlier.

Bringing together the available evidence, I’d say it is likely that this car was produced close to 1918.  If that is the case, I’ve had an antique for three years.

Another interesting feature is the coupler mounting.  It is held on by a rivet swaged over a washer underneath the coupler.  I believe it was around 1918 that Lionel went to the bent tab coupler mounting.