2 - 180 Watt Power Houses =Phasing???

If they're using a common ground or the track loops are connected together so a train can traverse from one transformer to the other the answer is yes.

Ron

Do I do this by Connecting wires to both terminals in the two direct lockons?

I need more information. Are they connected to the same loop of track? Are they separate blocks or are they both powering the same loop at the same time? Here is a link showing how to phase transformers. To phase the bricks use a jumper wire between the bricks for the same hole in the connector of each brick and use the light bulb between the other two connectors.

http://lionelllc.wordpress.com...hasing-transformers/

Ron

Same track connected together using Legacy. 

I edited my above post to add how to check the phase of the bricks. Normally this wouldn't be necessary but there were some 180 watt bricks that were wired backwards.

Ron

Im familiar with how phasing works with transformers. Its just with 180 watt bricks there are no connectors on the bricks.... There are wires with a plug that connects to a Direct lockon. So do I Connect the wires from lock on to lock on? (Hot to Hot , Ground to Ground)

Either put each on its own isolated block or use a TPC 400 to combine them.

Except for the early PH180's that had the phase reversed, they should all be in phase, and they do have polarized plugs.

I tried to isolate them but everytime the loco goes from one block to the other it stalls/ shorts out

So your saying that there is no need to phase 180 watt power houses and I dont have to isolate?

I would say that 360 watts to the track is enough to do some serious welding and for one block wouldn't be needed. One brick will run 2 or 3 trains unless you have a lot of lit cars. Normally the bricks would be in phase with each other but because some were wired backwards they all should be checked in my opinion to be safe. If you have both bricks wired to the same track/block you could check the voltage at the track. If it's close to 18 volts they would be in phase. If you have something around 30 volts or more they aren't in phase.

If you leave it that way (2 transformers in parallel with opposing phases) for any length of time you can damage the transformers and the breakers would afford no protection.

To test, plug in the 2 bricks and connect 2 like terminals on each brick. Then measure if there is voltage between the remaining two.

Dale H

2000 48 or lower are the culprit transformers. From the above reading.

When the train moves from one block to the next it shorts out? Does it kick the breaker on the brick?

We just had this problem with a 180 watt brick and the Z4000. When the train cossed the block from one power supply to the other, we got a direct short and the breaker kicked. They were out of phase.

Maybe you have an older brick and a newer one. Look on the bottom label.

Timothy,

   Rob gave you the fix in his post for phasing the bricks.

PCRR/Dave

One of these days Ogr will put this in a sticky at the top of the page next to the more important issues like embedding a video. Grind the large spade down on the plug of the bad brick, flip it over plug it back in and your done. Mark the top with a dot of yellow nail polish so if it gets unplugged you know which way is up.

Without a train on the track measure the voltage between the 2 center rails , one test lead on the center rail in the one section, one on the center rail in the section the train shorts in. You should get a very low voltage or no voltage. If they are wrong you will get 30 volts or more. Anything above 4 or 5 volts indicated a problem unless you deliberately want a speed change.  Don

ADCX Rob has provided the Lionel "Phase Adapter" instructions which allow correcting so you do not have to cut any output wires of the brick.

Are both bricks plugged into the same outlet? The only 3 ways we have come across out of phase so far are different outlets with wiring errors, transformer internal wiring errors, or track lock on wire errors. Since you are using the Lionel lock on you must trust they are correct, that only leaves the transformers internally or the wall plugs. Measuring the center rail voltage over an insulated joint is the way to tell if your problem is resolved. Since it is AC current shouldn't the loco just speed up or slow down? Don't know if out of phase makes a short. A illuminated car with two truck pick-up rolled across this scenario would light up twice as bright if out of phase.

Unless the bulbs are wired in parallel, it would actually be bridging a 37 volt 10 amp potential causing a significant short circuit.  The breakers should pop.

The 2 pickup rollers are wired together via the 22 gauge wire in engines and lighted cars etc, the bulbs are irrelevant other than the double voltage could burn them out as well as engine electronics. This is the least of the problem. . There is a difference between 2 opposite phased transformers just sharing a common and 2 transformers placed in parallel. Half of your house wiring is out of phase with the other half so this is common practice. 2 transformers can share a common without issue as long as they are not put in parallel by whatever method. If in parallel by any method both would heat up in time and melt and most likely the breakers would not trip.  Modern transformers with transistor outputs may not back feed into each other but 2 bricks by themselves or 2 PW transformers sure would. Never place 2 transformers in parallel unless you know they are phased and of equal exactly voltage,not that it is a good idea doing it even if they are phased. 20 amps at 18 volts is a 360 watt mini welding torch. Light up a 300 watt bulbs for a few minutes and then try to touch it,it is nothing to play with.   Check phasing first with a meter by the method I described above,do not hook together and measure total output voltage. Also eliminate roller jumping so 2 transformers are never in parallel.  

All this does not address the voltage on the plug prongs themselves if one of them is unplugged,discussed in another post by Dale Manquen.

Dale H

For new installations of passenger car lighting, I am installing a PTC between the two rollers to avoid the issue of derailments shorting one of the pickup to the outside rail.  I do the same thing wiring tender pickups in parallel with locomotive pickups for better performance over switches.

Here is a link to paralleling 2 transformers for single phase. They must be identical voltage and in the same phase or a short circuit occurs.

www.electrical-engineering-por...arallel-connection-1

www.transtutors.com/homework-h...-of-transformer.aspx

Dale H

Nice find Dale, explains it very well.

After taking everyones advice into consideration I took time after work today to look at the two 180 watt bricks and they are both dated after the time period that the faulty bricks were distributed. So taking everyones advice into consideration I thought there had to be something else wrong with the electrical like the internals of the lockons so I by chance took the wires that i had plugged into them and switched them around. I took the block that i had installed out and when I flipped both switches to the 180 watt blocks both lights on the lockons went green and locos started running properly. 

My next question is should I re-install the block sections of track to create two power districts. So i have two isolated portions of track running at 180 watts of power and not one track running at 360 watts.. What is the best route to take? Assuming the 180 watt transformers are always in phase

2 180 blocks.

If the 2 power districts are adjacent and can be bridged by pickup rollers,then you are connecting the transformers anyway via the wire connection the rollers. If this can happen you may as well parallel the 2 transformers and wire it properly. Less surprises that way. Or use some relays with a transition section to prevent roller jumping between districts. 

Dale H

Could be time for a track plan to see what is happening.

I have to disagree on paralleling the transformers.  While the power districts can be connected by the rollers briefly during the transition, the parallel transformers puts 360 watts on the track at all times.  This is enough to do more damage during a derailment for no perceived gain.  Lots of people run with separately powered districts and the momentary bridging of the power districts don't seem to be an issue.

With 18" passenger cars as an example, and the car rollers connected in parallel, the districts are bridged more than not as a train traverses the block transition.  That's a little more than "momentary".

I've solved that problem by putting a PTC between the rollers of my passenger cars.   Besides, is that worse than connecting them all the time?

It could be.  That's how transients are created. 

I guess you have to pick your poison.

Relays and command/control don't play well together.  For anyone running a layout large enough to require more than one power supply, it's pretty difficult to run as you suggest.

Consider DCS, you can only drive the DCS signal into a block of somewhat limited size, so splitting the layout into blocks is mandatory.  The TIU channels can only handle a maximum of 10A each, so multiple transformers driving a single block are a non-starter in that environment.

There is a real danger in the One Size Fits All mentality, it just doesn't work.

I do not use DCS and am not familiar with the system. I dont see why a transition block with relays would not work. The relay system could switch from one block to the other other where the transformers would never in parallel. Also would not the roller jumping connect the TIU channels together,defeating the purpose of the 2 separate channels, just what you are trying to avoid? If the 2 channels work that way temporarily when jumped why would they not work that way permanent?

All relays are is electromechanical switches. If they would not work then neither would toggle switches with DCS. Further the original post does not designate DCS or what is being run, he is simply phasing 2 transformers so I do not see how that is germane to the issue.

I did not recommend paralleling the 2 transformers,I recommend avoiding it. I do say that paralleling them permanently is a better option than connecting them on and off with pickup rollers and 22 gauge wires.

Dale H

I don't think I'm going to try to explain how the TIU channels work, I'll leave that for another day.  I think I'll do it my way, and you can do it your way.

Thats fine John but I am curious as to why connecting the 2 channels with pickup rollers does not degrade your signal when they are separated for a reason. Just trying to learn something here and make some sense out of it,not trying to be confrontational..

Dale H

The short version is the signal would be seriously degraded by connecting TIU channels.  Dealing with the 3.27mhz DCS signal is not as simple as 60hz AC.  It so happens that DCS locomotives will continue to do what they're doing if they lose the signal, so a short interruption as the locomotive spans the transition would probably not be a big deal.  However, connecting two TIU channels together all the time would screw up the DCS signal totally, so that is simply unworkable. 

I'd be interested to hear how the NJ Hi-Railers handle it, as they have a huge DCS/Legacy layout, and many blocks and many TIU's.  I'm sure they've spent quite some time sorting out issues like this.  I'm sure they don't try to parallel TIU channels.