2 loops don't run independently

You need an insulating pin in the center rail between the loops or you'll pass power through. The U posts of a ZW are common, so without a plastic pin in the center rail, you're passing power from one loop to another.

The control rail pins on the switches(for non-derail) will require you to have a hot and common (lock-on) on each loop as they will isolate the commons also when the divergences are connected.

Then add a pin to the center as Boilermaker1 posted to isolate the loops on the hot.

Don't you need a pair of rights somewhere to cross back? You can leave a loop but you can't get back.

 I put the insulating pins where you indicated in red.  Is that were you wanted me to put just insulating pins?  I don't quite understand which rails of the switch are common and which are hot.  Can you provide another diagram, indicating where the insulating pins so go, and where the regular steel pins should go? 

Thanks.

I you wired things the recommended way, the wire from 'A' and the wire from the 'D' posts should connect to the part of the lockon that goes to the CENTER rail.  The 'U' posts are common and the wire from the 'U' post should connect to the part of the lockon that goes to the OUTSIDE rail.

Now, as for your switches, the CENTER rail is always the HOT rail and the 2 outer rails are the common.  Put plastic insulation pins where Moonman showed you - the red dots.  Put steel pins in the other rails.

Note that all 3 rails where the 2 switches meet (where the loops connect) must have plastic insulation pins as shown.

- walt

Hi Walt,

I have the lockons correctly wired and I put the insulating pins where the diagram shows.  The trains still do not run independently.  I am at a complete loss.

You used the word lockonS when describing both loops.  The only thing left that I can think of is that somehow you have one lockon on one of the loops connected to the wrong post.  That is, maybe one of the outer lockons is connect to 'D' instead of 'A' or maybe one of the inner lockons is connected to 'A' instead of 'D'.

There is no mystery to this so unless you have some sort of defective ZW you're about out of options IF that pair of switches is the ONLY thing the 2 loops share.

- walt

Hi Walt,

I have the outer loop lockons connected to the A post and the inner loop lockons connected to the D post on the ZW.  I have a terminal block where all the ground wires are connected to a U post on the ZW.  I have another terminal block where all the "pins" on the side of the O22 switches are connected.  I have a third terminal block that is for ground wires, and that is connected to a U post on the ZW  - on that terminal block is a wire connecting the "switches" terminal block to the second "ground" terminal block. 

I hope this makes sense so that you may be able to help me.

Thanks.

Walt has it. If in fact none of the lock ons nor wires are mixed between loops, the two switches are the only connection between loops with insulated pins in the center rails (AND the center rails not touching each other) it would seem somewhere you have jumped a connection. Do you have a picture or a diagram of the overall wiring? Maybe your power messed in the switch wiring? Don't have any of those to check.

You should disconnect either the A or D terminal until you get this sorted out.  It appears the A and D terminal are connected together and this can cause death smoke to escape from the transformer and/or wiring.  The circuit breaker does not protect the transformer in this condition.

If "pinned" and wired correctly, you have another issue too. Separate testing of track and transformer is how I would proceed. Try removing wires and testing each throttle output with a bulb or meter. If that's o.k., you have a track issue. Only thing I can think of on the track, is the bottom edges of the turnouts rails are touching. The fiber pins don't always work perfect 100% of the time. Varying on how the bottom half of each rail end are formed, along with roadbed conditions, sometimes require widening the rail gap below the pin to achieve rail isolation.

Something I've noticed, and wondered about- Look close at the rail ends of an unmolested tubular track turnout and you'll notice they are keyhole or inverted U shaped with a tiny bit taken off the ends of the U's "legs" -vs- normal track shape with a "full" circle of metal to hold the pin . I've wondered if this is to help prevent rail contact when on uneven surfaces, or just a end result of build/design process. I suspect the former, bending those ends into a loop wouldn't have been too hard.         

Excellent! Just take the control wires off to check. 

Dear Servoguy,

I disconnected the lockon wires from the A post and tried running the trains, and then from the D post, but the problem of having both trains run at the same time remains.

I've also removed the "pins" from the sides of the O22 switches and the problem remains.  Maybe I should plant a statue of Casey Jones upside down in my yard.  If that method helps with a St. Joseph statue in home selling, maybe it would help me with my wiring problem.

If your using one lock-on, You've narrowed it down to track, or switch motor/coil controller. 

You asked for a diagram. This may help. And gave me time to think. Here is a screenshot of SCARM & MSpaint. SCARM is a free program(windows) search this site for posts about it.

The fiber pins in red will isolate the loops, and provide anti-derail for the turnout portion of each turnout. Use one fiber pin, in all red spots. The ones in purple represent a choice, corresponding to which rail your turnout switch uses to trip anti derailing for the straight away portion(most switches used the small inside rails, early ones used the other rail. Its easy to tell the two apart as the early ones have gaps("slices") in the long straight rails. If you have slices use the fiber pins on the "sliced" rails, otherwise use them on the short "inner" rails. 

Hey! Are your lock-ons Lionel? Identical? Some "other" lock-ons are reversed from Lionels. (also Lionel suggests a lockon for each side(3) of a switch(turnout), hence the extra wires in the diagram.)   

I don’t know if this will solve your problem but the wires from the pins (fixed voltage posts) of your switches should NOT go to ground as you described above.  They should go to one of the “accessory” terminals on your ZW (either B or C). 

HTH,

Bill  

It's not causing this issue, but you really don't want to insulate both outer tracks on the 022 switches.  To isolate the two tracks, it's only necessary to insulate the center rail between the two loops.

Here's where the insulating pins go on 022 switches for proper operation of the non-derailing features.

Paul,

To clear up matters 100% I must ask you what type of ZW are you using and what is the parts number on your 022 switches?

There has been at least three models of the Lionel ZW put out; the post war ZW, the ZW-C, the ZW-L. Also which switch part number are you using? Is it the post war 022 or a modern version of the 022 switches; example 5133 or 6-23011?

The reason I ask is that the newer ZW's have had a few issues with the power distribution, especially the ZW-C. It will let power from handle A go to handle D.

Lee Fritz

GRJ, you diagram of the non-derailing feature on the 022 switches is incorrect.  The long curved rail is split in half and the part of the rail furthest from the movable points is isolated from everything except the switch motor.  I think your diagram is for a 3011 switch.

OOPS, did I grab the wrong diagram?  You're right, of course, I grabbed if from the Internet, and not from the my documentation.

The idea was sound, just the wrong diagram.

Here's the correct one.

Paul, sorry for the confusion, my heart was in the right place... I think.

Johns right about the double insulation. I.e. the three red dots together, its not ideal. It was shown mostly to save space, backing train up warnings not included. I don't know for sure the 022 shares its rails connections internally on common. I assumed it did, and your complaint isn't about stopping in the turnout(yet). Below illustrates it another way. Choose one red dot, and both purple ones for the 022, and most others. The green would be for the early 1122 (sliced rail). Ideally a lock on should be added between turnouts, and center rail wired to A or D, depending on the red dot choice. I suggested disconnecting the switch controller because 1. I believe the switch controller with two handles on is built different than one handled sw.controller, but it can be used if changed a bit, and 2. Any piece may have been modified. Also, don't try and work both switches at once off one single handle switch when you're using track power. If easier, you can disconnect the track 100% between the loops to test, and if it still does it, the power is "getting in" through the sw. controller (or your wrong, and lock on/center rail wiring is mixed together).  

You are running post war conventional right? Not TMCC or similar....never mind... I was imagining two locos, with the same address, thinking some other radio transmission or noise is a signal, then moving when you are giving them power. But the isolation problem is still there.  

Edit-forgot the clip, sorry    

I would suggest starting with only one lockon on each loop.  That should work OK.  Then add stuff until it doesn't work any more.  The last item added will then be the problem.

Well, here's the latest:  I made sure all the wires are connected correctly, the switches are wired correctly, the proper wires go to my terminal blocks and to the ZW, the lockons are wired and connected correctly, i.e., I researched and properly wired everything and put pins where they belong.  The problem remains.  I have this sinking feeling there may be something wrong with the ZW.  I have a friend here locally who helps me with my trains and is an expert at repairs and wiring.  He is coming over to my house in the next few days, and he may be able to look at the wiring and figure out what is wrong.  I will keep everyone here posted on what happens. 

I want to express my sincere appreciation to everyone here on the forum who offered help and advice.  You're a great bunch of people.

Paul, you can do a simple test to make sure the transformer is OK.  Remove the wire from the D terminal and see if the D handle will make the the train run.  If it does, the problem is inside the transformer.  If it doesn't, the problem is with the wiring.  Try this and let us know what happens.

Now that millions of electrons have been sacrificed, let's do this methodically and scientifically.

Take all wires off all the transformer posts.

Turn on the transformer.

------------------

Put your voltmeter across A and U.

Turn the A handle to the OFF position. 

Operate the D handle, while watching the voltmeter.

Tell us what you observe.

This is the first of several steps that your friend will probably do, but you can do them yourself, resulting in personal satisfaction.  It's what I would do if I were invited to your home to help.

The next set of steps is to place the voltmeter across D and U.

Turn the D handle to the OFF position.

Operate the A handle.

Observe the voltmeter and report the findings.

After you have done these tests, we can move on, one step at a time, until the problem is found and fixed.

Feel free to call me on my toll-free line anytime.  866 - seven four nine - 0100

Arthur P. Bloom, licensed and insured telecommunications electrician.

A basic wiring manual for three rail electric trains is a valuable reference for answering [and preventing] problems like yours.

I did as Servoguy recommended.  I disconnected all wires from the D post of the ZW and no trains ran when I operated the D throttle.  As soon as I connected one lockon to the the D post, both the A (outer loop) and D (inner loop) trains ran at the same time.  I don't have a voltmeter, so my best guess is something is miswired.  Today, I'm doing landscaping and gardening outdoors since the weather is gorgeous.  The trains can wait a day for me to give the wiring some further thought.  I'll keep everyone here posted on what happens and on what solution my local train guy may be able to come up with.

free voltmeter at harbor freight, they aren't the greatest but do the job.

There seems to be a lot of confusion in this thread. Why is it that not one person has suggested that the poster remove the switches? By doing so he/she will be able to remove the doubts about the transformer. He/She is convinced that the transformer is bad.

I would suggest that the poster obtain a book that covers first layout construction. It sounds as if the poster is in the dark at this time. I wish him/her the best of luck. 

"Why is it that not one person has suggested that the poster remove the switches?"

Because the proper and logical way to troubleshoot any power problem of this type (a suspected cross between two sources) is to start at the beginning, which, in this case, is the suspect transformer. Once we establish that there is no interference between the A and D traction power circuits, we will then proceed to the next step, which is the track. That next step will involve removing sections of the track (electrically) from the track circuits until we find the cross.

It is imperative, however, that folks who play with electrical toys equip themselves with at least an inexpensive set of electrical tools. This would include a handful of test leads with alligator clips, and a digital volt-ohm meter, in the $12 range, more than adequate for simple tests on a toy train layout.

When I teach trouble-shooting to apprentice electricians, I use the analogy of the doctor. What's the first thing he reaches for when you say you don't feel well? The thermometer. The DVM is the thermometer of the toy electric train world. We can't expect to know how to proceed in helping the OP with (albeit well-meaning) shots in the dark. We need to establish a base line of data and then proceed logically.

I'm sure once we get those voltage readings, the rest will be easy to figure out.

Art,

I agree with you on this one. When I started my apprenticeship we had to purchase our own tools to fill our basic tool boxes. The first thing on the list was a volt-ohm meter. It was analog back then (before digital). The most expensive items was the set of non-conductive screwdrivers. BTW I still own my first tool box.

Yes, your steps in trouble shooting are correct. My point was to satisfy the persons doubt from the get-go, be right or the wrong way.

It is not necessary to remove the switches.  He disconnected the two switches, and the problem remained.  He should remove all the lockons except for one on one of the loops. Then see if the loops are still connected.  

I have a MSEE and 51 years of experience.  I have had Lionel trains since 1951.  

I'd recommend the $10 Harbor Freight clamp-on meter.  It's got all the ranges typically needed for model trains, and the clamp-on ammeter is a very handy tool to have around the layout.

The tourist infestation has begun down here on Long Island. Maybe I'll jump on an outbound train and take a trip up to Frogville Junction, er...Camillus, and help fix the problem. It would do my blood pressure and my general attitude a world of good to get away from the tourons for a few days.

While the clamp on meters are the way to go for many, including the scared, the clumsy, and those working with more than say 50v and/or high amps (then for $10 worth every penny). But if I could only have one electric meter for this hobby, it would be traditional probes on a multi-meter (does the HF clamp meter have probes too?). If I could only have two, it would be two multi-meters, one digital, and one analog. You just cant check a lot of things with a clamp only meter. Regular meter probes can check almost anything. You just have to use more caution.

Is there any reason, even theoretical/overkill, for anyone to wire the throttles, and/or posts together? A preset low speed handle and a "booster" handle? Avoiding use of an external bus block? A meltdown, or breakdown may be the cause sure (hey Paul, before you even plug it in again, pull the 4 screws on the top of the zw and lift. Make sure nothing (like one of the transformer frame top bars?!?) has fallen down near the posts to short them together. Also, I have to wonder if that isn't just a modification vs mistake in the wiring. From what Ive seen, unless it was repaired with a much longer wire, you would have to add a jumper from A to D. The original wires Ive seen would not reach from A throttle to D post, nor visa-versa.   

Hey! I resemble that remark! No fudge for you Troll (in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, the tourists that "live below the bridge"(Mackinaw) are "trolls", or "fudgies" because they buy a heck of a lot of fudge.)(thanks for the "dis" trade)

The Harbor Freight Clamp-On has all the normal functions with the probes and the clamp-on ammeter function as well.

HUZZAH!  The inner and outer loops now run independently.  My local train guy came over this afternoon.  We found a faulty piece of track which wasn't insulated correctly, which he repaired.  We also found that a wire from the inner loop was connected to the outer loop post on the ZW.  What we did was to run 18 gauge black wire from the terminal block the constant voltage pins on the O22 switches are connected to, to the ZW.  The switches work perfectly.  We also split a terminal block into two sections, one for the inner loop and one for the outer loop.  Lockons from each loop are now connected to the inner/outer loop terminal block, and only two 18 gauge red wires (inner/D ZW post and outer/A ZW post) are connected to the ZW.  It took some doing, but we did it. 

Thanks to everyone for the help and suggestions, which I will save for future reference.  All aboard the Frogville Junction Railroad!

That's good news! Did your friend use a meter?