2 Rail or 3 Rail ?

HEY MWB,

What's the tightest curve that your 2-8-0 Consolidation will handle?

My Sunset Brass 2-6-0 Mogul would derail on 36" curves, but stayed on my 43" and 48" curves.

And from an earlier post...are you a Physicist?

Thanks,

BAD ORDER

Although I have no interest in 2R at this time life has taught me to never say never.  Right now I have a small layout where I like to move cars around at low speed and couple and switch and uncouple for a while before any cruising takes place. The electro couplers on the engine with the thumbtack track uncouplers (Atlas 6059) and trucks with pancake uncouplers all work perfectly for me with DCS. So 3R is just right for me now thank you very much and the sight of the 3rd rail doesn't bother me in the least.

On the other hand, Hal's persistent unflappable enthusiasm for 2R is starting to weaken my resolve. I especially like that it's "positive" enthusiasm that doesn't rely on bashing the alternative. Hal, I know you're somewhere between me and Mammoth mtn. One of these days I'm gonna show at your front door and you'll be able to try and convince me in person! .

I'll be a tough sell though.

2 of them will take down to 28-31".  The 5 moguls I have will take the same radius.  I've not had time to play with the 6th one or the 3rd consolidation.

Physicist?  Radio/Inorganic/Organic/Coordination chemist/radiopharmceutical drugs.

HEY SCOTT,

I won't have to convince you...my layout will do that!

{AND you don't know how to get to my front door}

Bad Order Hal of Apple Valley, CA

Here we go again...

Mark in Oregon

Been watching this post for awhile now.   I am a 2 railer have been for more years than I care to tell, 3 rail in the past was Lionel  over priced and under scale. but that has changed . the models available today at prices one can afford are plentiful. I see what some of the 3 rail folks are doing and say WOW.  THE NAME OF THE GAME IS MODEL RAILROADING. iTS PLACE TO FORGET THE EVERYDAY PROBLEMS AND ENJOY . So pick a direction make some friends share a few good stories ask  how do you do this or that. and model railroad your way to some fun.  FrankyOgee 

you're right, he did ask that...and his question was answered. Like many discussions, this one went off on a tangent--and what of it?

Jeff C

Ralph, that is so awesome! I wish there were more folks who think like you do!

For me, "If it doesn't have electro-couplers, it isn't any fun." I want to operate.

That said, I like the realist look of 2-rail track.

"There are lots of ways to skin a cat," as people used to say. I built a very simple

2-rail layout in my available space (about 20x40 feet) using the largest radius I could, which is about 108" with easements (overkill?).

Ten years ago, I had the same space crammed with tracks and equipment, but it was not as satisfying as the present arrangement in which my Rio Grande L-105 and A-B-B-A F-3 units sweep gracefully around the very large curves. This certainly isn't what most people would do with a large room, but after years and years of messing around with model trains I finally have something I really like! Maybe it's because I'm 68 and simplicity is more and more appealing!

I settled on O-scale 2 rail modeling about 40 years ago after working with HO and S and I've never regretted the decision, although I certainly can understand the appeal of the amazing models now available for the 3-rail market. 

We're all in the same hobby, basically, and it's fun to see all the different ways in which

people have interpreted the hobby: No need for invidious comparisons. 

Hudson, you are so right about needing an O Scale 2 rail starter set with engine, cars, track and power pack. I had such high hopes when first AHM/Rivarossi, then Weaver, and finally Atlas hit the market. But my hopes were dashed. O Scale 2R will not move until one can walk into a hobby shop and pickup a boxed set of everything necessary to setup a "Carpet Central" or Tabletop RR. For decades one has been able to do that with HO, N, G,and 3rail O. I'm still hoping. 

Dan

Mr. Hudson,

You mistread me and misinterpreted me, Sir!

I did not make any comments whatsoever about the FUTURE of O-Scale 2-Rail!

Others spoke of that, not me.  I really don't care if 2-rail has any future or not...I've

got what I wanted!

And another thing...I did not spend $20,000 on a train room.

I spent it on a BILLIARD PARLOR in 1999, and didn't even decide to build an O-Scale 2-Rail layout until 14 years later, in June, 2013, long after I had lost interest in billiards.  My 900-pound Tournament-size table just sits there, year after year.

Now are you straight?

Bad Order Hal  [$3799 due at signing]

Chuck said, "2-rail is the future." Chuck And then you said, "Chuck, your opinon has merit!"

How was I not supposed to interpret that as you agreeing with Chuck?

You wrote: "And another thing...I did not spend $20,000 on a train room."

But yet you said, "Second, one could build a seperate addition (as I did) for the sole purpose of running trains on a larger layout."

I chose the latter alternative, which cost me over $20,000, because it was done by a contractor according to code, with a tile roof that matched the original house.

Yes, I have always been STRAIGHT. Your own words contradict yourself.

By the way what is "mistread"? Never heard of that word before.

The way you wrote those posts above were not in a clear and concise manner.

Wow...

Mark in Oregon

Butch

That's nice....

Actually it was I that referred to Mike of MTH that said the future is 2 rail. I would think a manufacturer would know what is selling. Stephen

Gentlemen, this 3-rail vs 2-rail debate will go unresolved into a dead-end...it is written!

I've stated my case, and now I've got to board that train to Birmingham, on the Wabash Cannonball.  

Bad Order

Well,Stan,there you have it. Hope you managed to get SOMETHING out of this "discussion"...

Bet you're (almost) sorry you asked.

Mark in Oregon

Stan, I didn't answer any of your questions because I thought they had already been answered. I didn't realize they weren't as this thread took off in another direction.

So my question is . How do I know if I am getting 2 or 3 rail trains and cars ?

The way I tell a 3 rail car or locomotive from afar is to just look at the coupler and the flanges on the wheels. Any 3 rail car from the factory that has not been modified will have the larger Lionel type coupler. I also look at the flanges and wheels. Any 3 rail car from the factory will have wheels with the very large flanges and the tread of the wheel will usually have a sharp angle. Lionel called these "fast angle wheels". Two rail cars usually come with Kadee couplers or a Kadee compatible coupler or no coupler at all. Two rail cars do not have the larger flanges or the "fast angle wheels". Also on 2 rail cars the tread is smaller and much flatter. Once you get used to what the wheels and couplers look like for 3 rail and 2 rail you will then become very good at telling them apart.

The main thing with rolling stock is that 2 rail cars have insulated wheelsets meaning no electricity can pass though the wheels from one rail to the other. In 3 rail the wheelsets are not insulated. This is done so the car can turn on and off accessories like signals and grade flashers,etc. 

Also do most of the O scale trains makers trains and cars work together what I mean is can you mix and match them ?

Sadly, yes and no. I am a former 3 railer and when I was in 3 rail I had some K-Line cars and some Williams cars that worked very poorly or not at all with Lionel and MTH cars. The Williams car was very difficult to couple up to Lionel cars and the K-Line car just wouldn't couple up at all to Lionel or MTH. You see there are no Standards in 3 rail. All the different manufacturers walk to the beat of their own drum. I believe they do this so that you will find one brand you like and then only buy from that brand. Most of my MTH stuff worked well with Lionel but it was kind of pot luck. I never knew that something wasn't going to work until I tried it. So yes, you can mix and match them (I certainly would) but you may encounter a problem here and there. I've been out of 3 rail for 10 years so I hope there is more compatibility now.

O one more thing I bought some real tracks because I thought it would be a good track to start with.

Thanks a lot Stan

When you say real tracks I assume you mean MTH's Realtrax. I had this track and I liked it in fact I still have some of it that I used on a small layout for my grandson and I liked it. However, I read complaints about it here on the forum. Everyone has their own opinions on track. A lot of guys like Atlas track. My opinion on 3 rail track is for performance and reliability you can't go wrong with Ross track and switches or Ross switches with Gargraves flex track. If you want more of a scale look I like MTH's Scaletrax. I would buy Rich Battista's video series "The Black Diamond Railway". In this video series (Part 1 I believe) he explains exactly how to work with Scaletrax. I've never done it but it doesn't seem that difficult and you can customize Scaletrax in case you need some special track section. You can find Rich's videos here:

http://www.toytrainsontracks.com/

Hope this helps.

Good luck with your railroad and have fun.

Just wanted to add that there is a lot more good information in The Black Diamond videos than just how to use Scaletrax. It's a great video series and I am sure the majority of folks here would recommend it. I have all 3 videos and have watched them numerous times.

HEY MWB,

I'd like to hear more about your Consols and Moguls running on curves of modest  radii...also some pictures of 'em, please.

Do your steamers have sound?

Are you running DCC or DC? 

Thanks,

BAD ORDER

Stan

Give HudsonJ1e's reply a good read.  It is good advice and I agree with most of it. 

The one exception I would take is that the couplers made by Atlas, MTH and Lionel in recent years work well together.  K-Line definitely made 3 rail couplers that did not work well with other makes but K-Line has been out of business for 9 years so that is a fading problem.

As for determining what products are 3 rail and which are two rail it isn't too hard if you know what to look for.

Most manufacturers have a "traditional size" or "O-27" product line.  A few of these products may be 1/48th scale models of freight cars or locomotives with moderate levels of detail.  Most are selectively compressed to make good looking toy trains.  The manufacturers have different names for these product lines. Atlas calls theirs Industrail Rail.  MTH calls theirs Rail King and identifies 1/48 scale locomotives within their entry level product line as Rail King Scale.  Lionel calls their entry level product line Traditional.

The manufacturers also have names to distinguish their exclusively 1/48 scale product lines.  Atlas has Train Man (moderately detailed and priced) and the Master Line (highly detailed and priced to match). MTH has their Premier line.  Lionel calls their 1/48 scale product line Standard O.  The MTH and Lionel web sites have search features that allows you to search for products only within the product line that interests you.

Lionel only makes O scale trains in 3 rail.  They have announced new freight cars that will include mounting pads for easier conversion to Kadee couplers.

MTH has only offered two freight cars in factory 2 rail.  Most MTH Premier line freight cars now come with Kadee mounting pads and MTH offers 2 rail trucks to easily convert their rolling stock.  MTH has made many locomotives in factory two rail versions.  MTH Premier product numbers begin with a 20.  MTH uses a suffix to identify the versions of their locomotives.  A 20-XXXX-1 locomotive is a 3 rail locomotive equipped with sound or, since 2000, a Protosound 2 or 3 sound and command control system.   A 20-XXXX-2 locomotive is the 2 rail version.  MTH "-2" locomotives made since the 2000s will run on AC or DC conventional power and DCS.  Those made in the last few years that have Protosound 3 will run on AC, DC, DCS or DCC.  A 20-XXXX-3 locomotive is a Premier 3 rail non-powered dummy diesel.

Atlas used to identify their trains with four digit product numbers.  A number starting with an even digit was 3 rail and a number beginning with a odd digit was the 2 rail version of the same product.  They have recently gone to much longer product numbers.  When I figure it out I'll let you know. 

I hope that helps! 

Ted, is absolutely correct here. What he is saying is exactly what I encountered when I was in 3 rail. I apologize for not explaining it properly. It was extremely difficult for me to get the K-Line coupler to couple up to anything that wasn't K-Line. Forget about doing any switching. The other problem I just remembered was that the MTH couplers would just open up while running. Of course this isn't a compatability issue and MTH corrected this issue at least 10 years ago but if you do happen to come by an older piece of MTH rolling it could have this problem.