MTH 20-3109-1 Triplex (May 2003) Cab 5015 (P/S2)

Hi how about just replace the batteries with new old most batteries last at least 10 years!

Harbor Freight Tools – Quality Tools at Discount Prices Since 1977

Alan

Ed, ….hard to tell in your pics, but at first glance, it looks like your speaker is flaking apart buddy!!…..stop & investigate, take a close up pic if unsure, and post it up for a double check,…..a flaking speaker can destroy the audio portion of your board set,…..best be safe, then sorry!!

Pat  

When I try to blow up your pics, it gets grainy and can’t get a good focus,….it’s hard to tell, ….but again, better to be safe then sorry …..

Pat

Ed, I would install new 3V batteries first and make sure all is working first.  Also maybe replace the speaker as well........... If all works, I'd contact J&W, he may have a device to install the BCR... in this type of engine'...

@harmonyards posted:

Ed, ….hard to tell in your pics, but at first glance, it looks like your speaker is flaking apart buddy!!…..stop & investigate, take a close up pic if unsure, and post it up for a double check,…..a flaking speaker can destroy the audio portion of your board set,…..best be safe, then sorry!!

Pat  

You are right Pat, that is a red flag!  Before you run that, I'd for SURE replace the speaker!

@harmonyards posted:

Ed, ….hard to tell in your pics, but at first glance, it looks like your speaker is flaking apart buddy!!…..stop & investigate, take a close up pic if unsure, and post it up for a double check,…..a flaking speaker can destroy the audio portion of your board set,…..best be safe, then sorry!!

Pat  

Thanks Pat!   Here's a pick...

I noticed Peeling?"  It looks like what you described along the edges.  Is that what you meant?  Thanks again for spotting this.

Ed

Gunrunner and Pat, thanks for spotting this.  Replacing the speaker will be done!

Ted, Alan...you guys are always looking for the easy way out!   That's exactly what I'll do....easy is, well, easy! 

John, Pat...the new MTH parts site is now blank regarding this engine...and searching on "speaker" gives hits but all "out of stock."  Not sure what ohm speaker to replace it with.  Any suggestions on a replacement?

Dave ..ooops ...........ED..dump that speaker now.

@Dallas Joseph posted:

Dave........dump that speaker now.

Dallas,

Dumped!  It registers 4.2 Ohms?? I am going to replace it. 

PS2 3V is 4Ohm. However, you need to know the diameter. Likely 40, 45, or 50mm.

FWIW, that looks like a 50MM given the full frame width.

However, that specific bracket (the plastic) might interfere with the particular style above. You might go to Digikey or other electronics place even Partsexpress- being from Ohio, hopefully you know of them.

Again, 50mm OD, 4 Ohm.

Also, when searching- 50mm is = 2 inch in most searches.

Here's on I've used on a few PS/2 & PS/3 applications.  It fits almost anywhere and has decent sound, certainly as good as the stock speaker.  PUI Audio AS05004PR-2-WR-R

Thanks for the info. I just ordered a speaker from DigiKey.  I'll pick up some batteries. i can't wait to see this beauty running....smoke from the tender, what a hoot!

@Quarter Gauger 48 posted:

Ed, I would install new 3V batteries first and make sure all is working first.  Also maybe replace the speaker as well........... If all works, I'd contact J&W, he may have a device to install the BCR... in this type of engine'...

Ted, that's now the plan. 

Alan, if they last 10 years, they're likely to pass to my estate!

@Quarter Gauger 48 posted:

Ed, I would install new 3V batteries first and make sure all is working first.  Also maybe replace the speaker as well........... If all works, I'd contact J&W, he may have a device to install the BCR... in this type of engine'...

Ted, good suggestions. I am going to replace the speaker. install new batteries and contact J & W. 👍

Before the 2.4v battery packs were developed, early PS2 3v locos used the removable AA rechargeable batteries.  A BCR2 is a suitable replacement.

Ed, I believe the BCR will work in all PS2 Locos.  I recall discussing with JT if memory serves me correctly, this very situation a few years back, when MTH started installing a similar unit in the PS3 engines.   It cut deeply into J&WTs business..........                 

@ToledoEd posted:

I purchased a pristine MTH Triplex recently.  Owner hadn't run it for years and strongly suggested I replace the battery before powering it up. Good advice. I would like to replace the batteries with a BCR.  Then I opened it up and found this: 2 AA Ni-Cd 1.2v batteries. (So I assume it's a 3v system...) (Manual calls for a 1.5v rechargeable NiCad battery...???)

Batteries with nickel chemistry are usually labeled 1.2 volts. They start out around 1.35 to 1.4 but when you load them they will drop to 1.2 pretty quickly, and maintain that pretty much until they die and need recharging.

They look to be original.   Is there a BCR or equivalent I can use as a substitute for these two batteries?  I know J & W produces a 3v BCR-2 but not sure if or how I could use it.

Is there something else available or are my only options to cut the wires to the battery case and install a plug compatible with the J & W BCR-2, if that's OK or, just replace the two Ni-Cd's with two new rechargeable 1.2v 700mAh batteries?.

The 3v capacitor (a.k.a. BCR) is what you want. If you buy from J&W don’t cut the connector off. If you trace the wires from the battery holder they should go back to a compatible connector somewhere there.

Sometimes it’s hard to see in the jumble of wires, but I’ve always found one.  That said I’ve never worked on a triplex before, and it’s a pretty early 3v model.

Here's what I do for 3V boards.  I lop the wires off the dead battery and just solder them to a 5V supercap.  Easy-peasy...

@Quarter Gauger 48 posted:

Ed, I believe the BCR will work in all PS2 Locos.  I recall discussing with JT if memory serves me correctly, this very situation a few years back, when MTH started installing a similar unit in the PS3 engines.   It cut deeply into J&WTs business..........                 

J&W are nice people, but there is no magic in their product. They are just reselling what is known as a super capacitor that has been soldered to the mating connector that MTH uses for the NiCd and NiMH battery packs.

There’s some discussion as to whether they actually bring about early failure on the old 5V boards by stressing the charging circuit. Granted 5V PS2 boards are a total crap shoot as to when they fail, but a completely discharged supercap can really draw a lot of current when charging.

Super capacitors were not as common when PS2 was designed, but by the time PS3 was introduced they had dropped in price.

I've always been a little circumspect in adding a BCR to a 5V board.  I have no direct evidence that it hastens the demise of the 5V boards since they die so often without abusing them.  However, I have my suspicion that abusing the charging circuit can't be a good thing.

@rplst8 posted:

Batteries with nickel chemistry are usually labeled 1.2 volts. They start out around 1.35 to 1.4 but when you load them they will drop to 1.2 pretty quickly, and maintain that pretty much until they die and need recharging.

The 3v capacitor (a.k.a. BCR) is what you want. If you buy from J&W don’t cut the connector off. If you trace the wires from the battery holder they should go back to a compatible connector somewhere there.

Sometimes it’s hard to see in the jumble of wires, but I’ve always found one.  That said I’ve never worked on a triplex before, and it’s a pretty early 3v model.

Thanks. I’ll look for it.

Hi MTH Websight, does have 45 mm speaker in stock!

BF0000039 mth part number

MTH Electric Trains (mthpartsandsales.com)

the white 2 pin connector is where you would plug in bcr next to round coil behind the capacitor

Alan

@Alan Mancus posted:

the white 2 pin connector is where you would plug in bcr next to round coil behind the capacitor

Alan

Using that connector directly would require making a custom cable since the BCR and the connector on the board are not only the same gender, but also from different connector series. Not hard, but probably unnecessary.

Somewhere in the jumble of wires that are in there, should be the correct opposite gender connector for the BCR previously shown in the thread. It's usually in the part of the harness that connects the charging port to the board and battery.

@rplst8 posted:

Using that connector directly would require making a custom cable since the BCR and the connector on the board are not only the same gender, but also from different connector series. Not hard, but probably unnecessary.

I've actually made a bunch of these to plug into the 3V board directly.  I used to do this for PS/2 upgrades as it eliminated the whole charging harness.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I've actually made a bunch of these to plug into the 3V board directly.  I used to do this for PS/2 upgrades as it eliminated the whole charging harness.

This is probably what I would do too John, but was trying to save the OP the trouble of getting out the soldering iron and heat gun. Once those get into the mix, unless you are skilled, there is the potential for a lot more damage. Though, I guess in this case just to the super cap.

@rplst8 posted:

Batteries with nickel chemistry are usually labeled 1.2 volts. They start out around 1.35 to 1.4 but when you load them they will drop to 1.2 pretty quickly, and maintain that pretty much until they die and need recharging.

The 3v capacitor (a.k.a. BCR) is what you want. If you buy from J&W don’t cut the connector off. If you trace the wires from the battery holder they should go back to a compatible connector somewhere there.

Sometimes it’s hard to see in the jumble of wires, but I’ve always found one.  That said I’ve never worked on a triplex before, and it’s a pretty early 3v model.

rplst8:  I traced the wires from the battery holder. They are soldered directly to the "charging" connector in the bottom of the tender opposite the volume control.

I reread rplst8's comment. There is indeed a plug on the board that runs to the charging port!  I missed that. The screw driver points to the connection.

So, if I may sum up what I've learned so far in this thread:

1. This is a PS/2 3v system (board). {it has the charging connector in the bottom of the tender)

2. I'm replacing the speaker.

3. I'm sure 2,  1.2v Ni-Cd 700mAh rechargeable batteries will work .  Any harm if the mAh is higher say, 800 or 1000 ?

4. BCR replacement vice batteries. The J&W 3v BCR2 is an  alternative to rechargeable batteries.

4A. QUESTION: If I use rechargeable batteries,  do they recharge from track power?

Thanks for your patience, interest and great comments and advice.

@ToledoEd posted:

1. This is a PS/2 3v system (board). {it has the charging connector in the bottom of the tender)

2. I'm replacing the speaker.

3. I'm sure 2,  1.2v Ni-Cd 700mAh rechargeable batteries will work .  Any harm if the mAh is higher say, 800 or 1000 ? No problem using higher capacity cells.

4. BCR replacement vice batteries. The J&W 3v BCR2 is an  alternative to rechargeable batteries.    Since the battery holder/pack is now soldered to that recharging connector, is that an issue if I simply snip the current battery holder wires and solder the leads from the BCR2 to them? Correct, in some engines that had the battery holder, there may not be the 2 pin connector where the more recent battery pack could plug in (same connector on the BCR2). As such, yes, the charging jack is just another parallel point in the circuit. That said, just like @gunrunnerjohn pointed at earlier, I make my own super capacitor with the matching JST-PH connector that plugs directly into the PS2 3V board. The idea being less connectors, less extra wiring, one less place to fail.

4A. QUESTION: If I use rechargeable batteries, do I need the MTH battery charger (MTH50109) to recharge the batteries, or do they recharge from track power? No, that's why they are rechargeable batteries, the system charges them from track power.

Thanks for your patience, interest and great comments and advice.

Actually, sorry, I read that last question too fast. Unfortunately, this is one of those choice things. If using rechargeable batteries, and you let them self discharge to a very low level- then you might want to use the external plug in charger. Yes, generally a brand new cell has decent charge typically, maybe not full charge, a good running session likely would put more charge into it from track power.

You also asked about a BCR2, and when that is installed, again, I do not use the external charging port and in many cases, it's not connected (I use the direct JST-PH connector to the PS2 3V board).

thanks Vernon.  I don't plan to run this engine all that often, so I believe the best course of action is to plug the BCR2 directly into the board.  That should solve my 'battery' issue. 

Ed, issues, issues, and more issues'.........👺 You always have issues... Reminds of a problem child syndrome'.... But only the locomotives you acquire'...(Lol)  You must be driving Nancy crazy'..............🤪

I know you love bringing these locos to life and having fun doing it'... A master of patience...😁 Can't wait to see this particular baby running at full speed'....

Too funny. Nancy actually has a passing interest in my train issues. Well, let me put it this way:  she’s polite when I talk about them. I hope to have her (the Triplex) running Friday. 😁

Gents, the BCR2 arrived.  See the pic. #1 is the male connector on the PCB which accepted the #3fe male connector from the charging port.  The BCR2's connector is a larger and different male connector.  Before I cut and replace the #3 connector for the BCR2 connector #2, I want to be sure there is no problem doing so.  Normally I wouldn't hesitate but in this case I want to be absolutely sure the different connectors do not signal some subtle difference...I don't want to "cross the streams!"

Ed, I'm sure you will hear from GRJ, and Vernon, on your ISSUE'....Wish I could help, But I have no idea.  I know these plugs can be different from each other...... and the way they transmit and receive signals...

Patience, patience my man...👺

@ToledoEd posted:

Gents, the BCR2 arrived.  See the pic. #1 is the male connector on the PCB which accepted the #3fe male connector from the charging port.  The BCR2's connector is a larger and different male connector.  Before I cut and replace the #3 connector for the BCR2 connector #2, I want to be sure there is no problem doing so.  Normally I wouldn't hesitate but in this case I want to be absolutely sure the different connectors do not signal some subtle difference...I don't want to "cross the streams!"

Red to red, black to black. This is simply the capacitor voltage- not signal.

Again, this situation may occur in early locos that used the AA individual batteries and a battery holder with spring terminals- the charging jack and wiring to the PS2 3V board might be directly soldered to the battery holder rather than having in the middle of the harness, the later style white 2 pin connector that the blue pack style batteries had and obviously, your BCR2.

@Vernon Barry posted:

again, I do not use the external charging port and in many cases, it's not connected (I use the direct JST-PH connector to the PS2 3V board).

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I've actually made a bunch of these to plug into the 3V board directly. I used to do this for PS/2 upgrades as it eliminated the whole charging harness.

Again, you have the factory JST-PH style connector that plugs into the board.

that plugs into the PS2 3V board

So, you need to somehow solder the red and black wires of the BCR2 you bought, to the JST-PH red and black wires that go to your board.

Again, sorry Ed, I know a learning curve but learning and knowing these connector types can be important. Especially when dealing with MTH. I fully know you didn't know, but tuck this into a safe place, you might need it again.

JST-PH

VS

MOLEX 5264 - 2P

@Vernon Barry posted:

Again, sorry Ed, I know a learning curve but learning and knowing these connector types can be important. Especially when dealing with MTH. I fully know you didn't know, but tuck this into a safe place, you might need it again.

JST-PH

VS

MOLEX 5264 - 2P

Vernon, ….we’ll accept your apology, …this time, …but for now on, we need this information quicker, …..we’re gonna let you slide on this one, …🤣🤣🤣🤣

Pat