2015 Volume 2 Catalog Pricing

Really it depends on the item. Some items get blown out,then years down the line they are highly sought after. Try to find a UFO diner or Hindenburger diner or some carnival rides for example below MSRP. Other items lay an egg. I dont buy much new anyway,but once in a while something appeals to me.

Dale H

Well, the piece of the puzzle that's generally not public knowledge is the dealer cost.  I doubt we'll see dealers selling below that number -- certainly not on a pre-order basis anyway, because they'd never make it up in volume... contrary to popular opinion.     Really... If they're selling pre-orders at a loss, they might as well just pack it in now and save themselves the hassle.

It's one thing to see dealer blowouts as time moves on and inventory ages.  If the dealer already owns the inventory at original dealer cost, then they'll take the loss in favor of much-needed cash flow.  But sometimes, dealers get new old stock from the importer's warehouse (i.e., Lionel and MTH) at a reduced dealer cost... and they pass along the blowout savings to consumers.  At that point, they're still making $$$ despite bargain-basement prices.

But getting back to 2015 Vol 2 prices... I think we'll see the dealer competition bottoming out at some point.  It HAS to, if dealers are gonna stay in business.  But blowout levels for pre-orders?  Ain't gonna happen.

I'd love to see Lionel SD60E's hit $499, but who knows...  we're close now at $515.    Other dealers are hyping a "whopping" 15% pre-order discount,  which comes in a shade above $550.  I wonder how many pre-orders they'll get with that strategy?

So the real question is, "Which dealer wants to sacrifice the most margin in hopes he'll achieve sales that he'd never see if he held out for a higher price?"  This is a somewhat double-edge sword of the BTO model's ability to level the playing field among dealers of all sizes who are now competing for pre-orders.  It's a slippery slope if dealers drop their drawers too quickly, 'cause there's no free lunch in life.

Of course, the other side of the coin is the number of dealers who will hold firm at a higher pre-order price, because they know what they need to pay their bills, keep the lights on, and stay profitable.  How many enthusiasts will maintain their loyalty with a long-standing dealer knowing other dealers are offering lower BTO prices?  What would it take for you to switch dealers?  $10? $25? $50???

David

If you don't want to pay the big bucks for scale I would think the NS SD60E series will eventually show up in the MTH RailKing brand.

   Bill T.

Just like buying a car "at dealer invoice".  (on a much smaller scale financially)

No one is advertising to lose money or break even. 

It's not like a good deal on one large ticket item would guarantee sales on other items that may be more comparably priced.  If some one buys steamer "x" from a dealer because they treated it as a loss leader, but then the dealer prices steamers "y" and "z" at closer to his actual needed price to stay in business, there's no guarantee he will get additional sales from the people who bought steamer "x" from him. 

As many people (not all - some do have dealer loyalty) have declared on such threads "the guy with the lowest price always wins for me".  The way of the internet.

The pre-order pricing on Lionel is crazy. After one pays the manufacture, the inbound freight, the free shipping to the customer, and the credit card fee on a item that sells for say $500 or so, there's almost $50 left. That's it. Our rent and utilities run about $4000 a month. 

When people at the shop ask ask me what I teach, I tell them I teach people how to make money which is not what I am doing here. 

I recall that last year 2014, Lionel increased the margins on most items to dealers to around 40% of MSRP.  That left more room for discounting. The numbers may have changed no doubt. Charles Ro sells at 19% or so off on many locos, more on rolling stock.  I assume he's found a way to make a profit at those rates.  They charge a modest shipping fee for smaller orders.  Smaller dealers may get less favorable deals and have higher overhead per sale, no doubt.  At the same time we have various "experts" extolling the theory that Lionel is gouging the consumer, and presumably, it's dealers.  It's a great hobby for those of us who just worry about our own finances and figure Lionel and the dealers will attend to theirs.

Sticker shock hit me when I was looking at the various pre order pricing at the big  dealers for items in the new Lionel catalog. For example The pre order price at all of the big dealers for the Union Pacific FEF steamers is over $1,400, with a retail price of over $1,600. The catalog says the new FEF's have whistle steam, and other then that I did not notice any other new features. I believe the last run of  UP FEFs had Legacy -  but I am not sure.

The price for the new UP FEF is approaching the price of a Vision Line steam engine. I do not see haw the dealers do this - make a fair profit, and stay in business.

Mr. Muffin says he is looking at $50 margin after all of his expenses are accounted for.

I guess it is all about volume.

Richard

I'm so happy I shop mostly at the LHS.  I pay a little more but I also get convenience, service, and trouble free shopping.

This isn't to say that some of our online sponsors aren't great at all the above but the LHS let's me walk in there in the afternoon and have what I need that evening to work on the layout.  I can also have an engine tested and I carry it to the car rather than risk another layer of shipping.  While some of the sponsor will also test it, it's only tested pre-shipping.

It's certainly a choice all of us must make.  Steve pretty much spells it out as to what the "price wars" do to his bottom line.  I can't imagine other shops, unless you are moving large volumes and have other products to sell, are doing much better.

Not true. Not even close. 

Actually Mr Muffin, they did change margins to 40 or better to the big 10 dealers by raising the MSRP price but this year kinda changed it back but didnt lower the price

Just to add a little to my previous post...

If you find an on-line forum sponsor such as Mr Muffin, Pat, Dave, or Charlie that treats you well, I suggest stay with them and support them like you would a LHS.  These guys shouldn't have to worry if you are going to jump ship over $5 in savings.  Loyalty goes a long ways especially from what I have seen with most of our sponsors.

On LionChief. the change was so bad, we had preorders below cost. Not on the big stuff. 

Being in Automobile Sales, HONDA, I Know the cost involved for success in bringing Customer Satisfaction and a modest Profit to our cash register. Rent, Electricity, Water, Building UpKeep, Displays, Merchandising, Insurance, Early Order Prograns, (No Guarantee of When the Merchandise will Show Up), Employee Insurance?, Salaries, Product Availability, Advertising in OGR, Newspaper, Billboards, In Store Train  Layouts,

Servicing our Broken Locomotives, Giving us Tips on Building our Dream Layouts, Taking The Big Chance that we, The Customer, will Pay for the product when It Safely Arrives at his or her Dealer.  NOW, Do You see what it Cost to try to Please a bunch of Toy Train't Operators/Collectors?????? THANK YOU TOY TRAIN DEALERS!!!!

IT's my Thoughts that you select the Dealer you wish to purchase from, do the Purchase, but do not Complain about the prices, if you can not afford the new trains, keep it a Secret, no one Cares.  In the Long Run, the New Scale PRODUCTS we see today, Are The Best.  We Live in the Very Best of Times, Enjoy Your Hobby!!!  We Should be THANKFUL that LIONEL-MTH-Atlas O-(and Many Many More Manufacturers) are bringing these Great Prodcuts to Market....Thanks for Sharing thoughts about our Hobby......

I'm with Marty on this one.  My dealer (a forum sponsor by the way) always treats me well and has 'fixed' any issue that has ever arisen. 

With a phone call, he's even matched lower prices.  I wouldn't have switched dealers anyhow, but it didn't hurt to ask.

Very happy with my dealer.

As for the VOL 2 pricing, either pay it or not.  That's all the choice we have.  As leapinlarry says, we are living in some of the best of O gauge times.

My LHS has the best pricing around for a brick and mortar shop.

usually about 30 - 35% off catalog price and he lets me pay 6 months same as cash layaway...

So I usually shop at his store.

A friend of mine that runs one of the big 10 dealers tells me that they dumped stuff to 50% right after all the orders were filled at 40%. All in all, I'm told there are some pretty crappy business practices

As an aside, we've talked about how BTO pre-ordering has leveled the playing field for dealers of all sizes.  HOWEVER, we've also heard a few isolated instances where the dealer landscapes have shifted somewhat... with some dealers exiting stage left.

• A couple of years ago, a Lionel authorized dealer often known for hunting down inventory from other dealers/distributors after taking low-priced website orders closed its doors rather quickly. 
• Last year, a well-known MTH dealer who seemed to have garnered a decent pre-order business also closed its doors rather quickly. 
• And we're now in the midst of an Atlas-O and MTH dealer also leaving the field, and their pre-orders are reportedly being routed to another dealer with a different pricing structure.

So while BTO pre-ordering has made it easy for just about ANY dealer to compete for pre-orders, it's still very important to place your pre-order(s) with a dealer who's actually gonna be around when these products finally ship -- sometimes years later.   

Fortunately, this isn't a rampant problem.  But as is always the case, the dealer with the lowest price may not necessarily be the most secure store to place an order.  Proceed with caution as the dealer landscape continues to change.  And NEVER, NEVER place a deposit on pre-orders when that little voice inside you is telling you otherwise. 

David

What got me is the price on the Consolidation, the price of the one in 2000 was the same as it is now if I am correct. Couple things are priced a little night but they are getting back to lowering the price.

Just got around to looking carefully at the 2015 volume 2 catalog, and yes the prices are crazy.  $650 for an SD38 is bad enough, but $1000 for an E7 AA set?  $1200 for a set of 21" passenger cars?

But what really gets me is the lack of proofreading.  Page 48, in large bold letters - "...gondola's with loads".  On page 60, the road name for 6-29381 is listed as "Grand Truck".  I'll bet there's more, but I can't bring myself to keep looking.

That catalog must cost a lot to produce, and it contains expensive luxury items, so I expect a first-rate effort.  It reflects very badly on the product and the company.  If I was responsible for the copy or proofreading, I would be ashamed.  Doesn't anyone proofread anymore?