2017 Flyer Catalog up!

Looks like they have gone full on AF Toy Train.  I can't believe we've gone from working with Jon Z. to get DCC working in the scale SD70s a few years ago to this. Not a single piece that interests me in this catalog, and I have no reason to believe that there will be anything in the future from Lionel. Not even an ES44, U33,  or SD70 repaint. Oh well... Good for the AF folks I guess.

Auto carriers are a disappointment. Probably too small even for S, not to mention they're shorties.

Still, the Geep trucks are an improvement over what Gilbert originally designed. At least the NKP in black hides that fact a little. May get one.

As if we don't have enough wood sided reefers, but still they are nice.

Did they ever do a NKP set of PAs? I know they did the Wabash. GM&O would be nice. Gosh, they're $700 a set. Lionel should invest in some new paint masks. There are other roads that had PAs. They might find there's a market for them.

Oddly, the Baldwin RTR sets have no cabooses. Lionel should market a EOT replacement truck like MTH does in O. So we could have a modern alternative to a caboose.   

Quick Casey posted:

Auto carriers are a disappointment. Probably too small even for S, not to mention they're shorties.

Still, the Geep trucks are an improvement over what Gilbert originally designed. At least the NKP in black hides that fact a little. May get one.

As if we don't have enough wood sided reefers, but still they are nice.

Did they ever do a NKP set of PAs? I know they did the Wabash. GM&O would be nice. Gosh, they're $700 a set. Lionel should invest in some new paint masks. There are other roads that had PAs. They might find there's a market for them.

Oddly, the Baldwin RTR sets have no cabooses. Lionel should market a EOT replacement truck like MTH does in O. So we could have a modern alternative to a caboose.   

The auto carriers are no surprise that old O27 tooling would be used.  After cancelling the 57' mechanical reefer, I couldn't see them justifying an 86' long car.  Anybody notice they recommend S27 curves for these guys?

I also may go for the NKP GP, the new trucks don't look quite as bad as on the sneak peek.  If I get one, it'll be after delivery.  I want to see one in the flesh, or at least a good picture of the production units.  No pre-order.

The woodside reefers sure look like SHS/MTH knock-offs.  This is obviously the "scale potential" car and with all the MTH/SHS reefers out there, I doubt any scalers will go through the effort to buy the Flyer version and scalify it.

Lionel scheduled an NKP PA for the aborted Railscope version decades ago.  Hasn't resurfaced since.  Still the New Haven's in green and gold are a surprise, I would've bet money on the McGinnis scheme.

It looks like the Baldwin sets are a method of clearing out the stock room.

Overall, it's a good catalog Flyer-wise, but nothing I absolutely gotta have.

Rusty

Here we go again. Lionel HASNT listened!!! They are gonna be setting there wondering why they are stuck with a large order of stuff that hardly anyone wants.

You know the old saying " if your gonna do it, then do it right or just dont do it at all"....i feel like the auto racks were a half arse attempt to build something that would have really propelled Lionel into the future with S and coulda had some VERY satisfied customers. Some over there needs to REALLY spend some time over here reading and theyd know what to build to have great success in S.

Pretty much a "meh" reaction from me overall.  Only 3 items I would consider: CSX auto carrier, FlyerChief Geep (very interested to try Bluetooth/app; would only consider NKP since the huge handrails are less conspicuous when it's all black), and Polar Express add-on reefer (it must be a warm one; no snow on the roof).

I like the NH PA's a lot (beautiful paint scheme), and the ATSF PA's will be nice, especially if the nose logo is more prototypical.  The $700 price is too high, though.  They could leave out the smoke units as far as I'm concerned to cut the price.  I love fan-driven smoke units in steam locomotives, but I don't really want huge smoke plumes coming from diesels and it's not a feature I'm willing to pay for. 

The new Blomberg trucks are an improvement that is long overdue, but they look improperly proportioned (too tall now).  We traded in Gilbert trucks that were way too long for new-tooled Lionel trucks that are too tall?  Come on!  How hard is it to design these to scale proportions?  Buy an American Models GP7 if you want to see how it's done.

The Baldwin sets are nice, but as has been stated earlier, they need cabooses to look right.  All of the rolling stock in these sets (except for the out-of-place CSX waffle-sided boxcar in the Canadian Pacific set) has roadnames and designs that are appropriate to 1950-1960 railroading, which was decades before cabooses were eliminated from freight train consists.  Does Lionel have anyone on their Product Management staff knowledgeable about the historical changes to roadnames, equipment, and operating practices?  I think I know the answer to that question.

Not to be another ****er on the parade, but there's not much that interests me.  Maybe the Polar Express add ons.

Wonder why they can't do a FlyerChief Reading Baldwin or Reading GP - just a paint job - but I'd buy one or both.

Was hoping for a reissue of the FlyerChief Berks, but no joy. 

It's alleged that they are coming out with wider radius fast track curves and switches, but when?  And I don't mean 27" radius.

I've been in S for over a year and Shessh!  S is a hard scale to be in.  It should be called "o" for orphan or "a" for abandoned.

jonnyspeed posted:

 

"The woodside reefers sure look like SHS/MTH knock-offs.  This is obviously the "scale potential" car and with all the MTH/SHS reefers out there, I doubt any scalers will go through the effort to buy the Flyer version and scalify it."

Nope.....

"Overall, it's a good catalog, but nothing I absolutely gotta have."

I'm surprised that you think it is a good catalog Rusty. I guess your AF roots are showing

From my perspective as a scale guy with no AF background this is about what I expected from Lionel. Absolutely nothing of interest. Instead of trying to pull scale modelers in from other scales Lionel feels it is better to focus on the shrinking demographic of AF toy train lovers. I guess I just don't see the business sense in that long term. Oh well, I'll crawl back into my scale dungeon and stop complaining now.

 

I have no Flyer roots as such.  My original background is with Lionel O, then HO.  I started in S coming up from HO as a scale guy in 1985, became interested in Flyer about 5-6 years later.

Heck, I've been posting pictures of my Flyer, Hirail and Scale stuff since practically day one of this forum.

My comment about the catalog is looking at it for S in general, which is 85% Flyer/HiRail by most counts.

I think my last purchase of traditional Flyer was the Great Northern EP5.  Mainly because I like EP5's.

From the scale perspective, I'm not disappointed because I had no expectations of Lionel's commitment, such as it was, to the scale side of the market.  Seeing they don't seem to want to interface directly with Scalers anymore, let them have at the Flyer/Hirail market.

Doesn't mean I can't like some of the stuff.  I've even taken a shine to the Prewar Celebration set in the O gauge catalog...  I find it interesting but not interesting enough to buy.

Rusty

The FlyerChief GP-7 description states "Minimum Curve S-36"? Can someone tell me if that is a diameter or a radius minimum? Will it run on AF tinplate track or does it need a wider radius?

Dean

Woodside reefers - new tooling for a car that hasn't been around for 80 years?  You think they could at least stamp a frame with a longer wheelbase.  I do like that they added Bluetooth to the chief system.  Doesn't look like they added bluetooth to PE; just recycling stock.

Brendan

Well, I guess that if I ever want to have an EMD F/E 7/9, I'll need to go to American Models and run them conventionally with my PowerMaster. I've fallen out of love with the PA's and I can't run the auto transports because all my curves are 20's. Not much else in the catalog grabbed my attention. Alas....

RBG

It does not make sense for them to reuse the O gauge auto carriers for S gauge, but not offer the same auto carriers in the O gauge ready-to-run catalog with O gauge trucks this year.

An 89'-4" flat car in 1/64th scale would be longer than the Lionel O gauge auto carriers.

They have to make the same cars from the 1:48th scale line as 1/64th scale models.

Andrew

Dean Hall posted:

The FlyerChief GP-7 description states "Minimum Curve S-36"? Can someone tell me if that is a diameter or a radius minimum? Will it run on AF tinplate track or does it need a wider radius?

Dean

They say "Minimum Curve S-36" for EVERYTHING, PA's Northern's, boxcars, etc., even the auto carriers where they "recommend" S27 curves.  It's cut and paste-itis.

You'll be OK on AF tinplate track.

Rusty

My Thoughts in general is that I like some of it but Lionel could have done so much better.

- Legacy PA.  I Like it.  but we need some powered Legacy B units in the future.  Overall good job and nice re-addition of the D&H and S&P for those who missed out on it the 1st time.

- Bluetooth Support great idea. 

- the GP 7's with Flyerchief - a good addition. 

- Ready to Run re-issue cars into sets - Smart for Lionel.  It may help move some older stock

- Wood Sided Reefers - They are nice but if your going to do new tooling why do this.  No one was asking for this on any wish list I have ever seen.  They are nice and I may buy a few but we have so many S gauge Wood sided cars in the market already.  That is the only reason why I am disappointed.  Was this just to hurt MTH.  Is the future tooling just going to focus on cars they have that Lionel does not?  I really would love to talk to the decision maker in Lionel that thought this was what we all wanted and were asking for.  (Sorry for the venting)

- Auto Carriers - I want to cry but I will man up.  Yes multiple clubs and sites had the Autoracks as their number one ask for new tooling.  So what does Lionel do.  New Autoracks tooled for S scale (No).  Instead they do the one thing we have told them never to do as it failed in the past.  That is to take some O gauge cars and put S trucks on them.  Yes, I wanted Autoracks but not O scale Autoracks.  I'll take this as a sign that someone was listening to us as to what we wanted but they only half listened.  They are giving us what they want not what we are asking for.  89' Autoracks would have been a big seller here.  Now my guess is sales of these cars will be poor.  Unlike the 57' Mechanical reefers, they will be made because the tooling is all done.  I am soooo disappointed because I think sometimes coming close is worse than not doing it at all.  I'm sure some may still be happy with this but it just makes me miss what could have been.

- Maintenance of Way - I like these but I always love Santa Fe

- Flatcars/Trailers - OK they look nice.

- Polar Express new Coach and Woodside reefer and billboard set are nice editions

- Christmas car  an annual purchase for me

- Track - I already have the 3 sectional straights so I don't consider them new but a good idea.  I still want the RR Crossing that you cataloged twice.  I don't consider the track system finished until you produce this. 

- Reissued Northerns, Docksider, Hoppers, Boxcars, Waffle Cars, Tank, Mint, Cabooses, Operating Cars, Railsound Cars, US Army, Passenger Cars and Accessories are all good for those who missed them

Over all I give you a C+ 

Lionel you could have done much better.  All you had to do is just read what your customers are asking for and you easily could have done much better.  I just have this feeling that someone is giving you bad advice and you need to stop listening to them.

--Rocco--

falconservice posted:

It does not make sense for them to reuse the O gauge auto carriers for S gauge, but not offer the same auto carriers in the O gauge ready-to-run catalog with O gauge trucks this year.

 

Andrew

Ah, but this way if they don't sell to the S Gaugers, (the Scalers certainly aren't going to buy them) they can change the trucks, repackage them and put them in next year's Ready to Run O gauge catalog...

Rusty

Ive said it once, ive said it many times and ill say it again Lionel.....you wanna make a statement in the S market?

SD40-2.   SD40-2.   SD40-2!!!!!!!!!

You want a hit, make that and you will have it. Make it Hi-rail AND scale option. Youll have a hit!!!!! Make it legacy like the es44 and sd70, youll have a hit!!!!!

If you do nothing else next time, ATLEAST do this and you will thank yourselves.

NO ONE ELSE IS MAKING THIS UNIT IN THE S MARKET. 

I like the variations on the PA paint schemes. The NH is an unexpected offering of the early NH scheme. The MP is the prototypical scheme as opposed to the silver roof version. The Pennsy offering in Brunswick green as opposed to red. Would've been nice to see some new roadnames but that is probably in the future.

Noticed the fuel and air tanks are different on the GP7. A new chassis or an add on? The couplers appear like the old Flyer solid couplers but are probably remote actuated electrocouplers. After all, it is a rendition, not a real photo. The additional PE coach is nice but could have been a hot chocolate car.

Rich

It looks like a good catalog to me. I love the retro cover and will definitely buy some wood sided reefers. Maybe a GP-7 or two, although I do agree that the new trucks seem too tall or too large somehow.

It would be nice to have some Berkshires also.

Do the GP-7s have one motor or two?

Hopefully the railsounds box cars will work better than the ones in the last release.

Did anyone notice the odd fastrack rails under a few of the box cars? The Merry Christmas car (we can still say Christmas without being non-PC?) and the UP railsounds box cars are placed on inverted U-rails that like O gauge fastrack. The tie ejector car is on three rail track!

Well this was really kind of a let down. 

I found myself poking around at HO manufacturers after looking at this AF catalog. 

Ben

Yeah....thats kinda where im at with it as well Ben.

You boys need to learn to temper your expectations with Flyer.  After the truck fiasco and 57' reefer incident, I figured the clock's run out on attracting scale folk.

Rather than a woodside reefer that S is awash in, if they wanted to shake things up a little with new tooling and "potential," they shoulda done the milk car:

Not modern, I know, but at least it would have been different.

Rusty

I had an auto carrier.  I mocked it up.  Used Lionel trucks with .080 spacer

No problem.  I'm no Rusty when it comes to photos!  I was surprised how good they looked;  I was expecting the worst.  They dwarf traditional but the prototypes are giants, too.

Brendan

Sorry Mark, I thought I was responding to Rusty.  Both your and Rusty's photos are always top notch.

Brendan

Many S-Fests ago, someone had the O27 auto carrier with the extra 2 scale feet cut of width out of the center of the car, removed the lip from the roof (which then fit perfectly) moved the trucks inboard to a more suitable location (which also lowered the car slightly) and extended the coupler arms.

It may seem like a lot of trouble for the builder to go through, but it looked quite good, making the car look more prototypical, despite it's short length.

That said, that's way too much effort that I'd want to go through to scalify the auto carrier (or multiple auto carriers,) even with ignoring the fact it would be 20' too short. 

Rusty

I have 5 of the Lionel Auto carriers with K-Line trucks & the long shank American Models couplers mounted with a screw to the body , not on the trucks. They look fine & they work on the 20r flyer track. I did add some weight . Had them for many years .

 Bob G.  Miami Valley " S " Gaugers

I to have some of the Lionel auto carriers converted to S using the Gilbert trucks and and adapter mounted to the truck. I agree, they do look fine, I loaded them with M-2s. I did not need to add weight. These cars were actually a little narrow for O gauge. A fellow club member has 7 or eight of these.

Before I am lambasted  I need to mention these were early pics, cars now are loaded with one manufacturers autos

After looking at the catalog and the notes here I plan to contact the person I work with at Lionel for my articles in the S Gaugian and find out if there will really be new trucks on the GP7 and if it will smoke.  These catalogs are always done with artists drawings and the wording can often be inaccurate with the final product.

I also want to know if the is a Bluetooth App for Android devices.

If you have other questions you would like me to ask please post them? I plan to contact him Friday afternoon.

Roundhouse Bill posted:

I also want to know if the is a Bluetooth App for Android devices.

 

On the Notch 6 Podcast Ryan Kunkle said an Android app is on it's way.  The Apple App was coming out first and showed up in iTunes this week.

Roundhouse Bill posted:

After looking at the catalog and the notes here I plan to contact the person I work with at Lionel for my articles in the S Gaugian and find out if there will really be new trucks on the GP7 and if it will smoke.  These catalogs are always done with artists drawings and the wording can often be inaccurate with the final product.

I also want to know if the is a Bluetooth App for Android devices.

If you have other questions you would like me to ask please post them? I plan to contact him Friday afternoon.

Might as well ask if the GP's going to have a stamped metal frame and truck mounted pilots.

Rusty

Also might as well ask if one or two motors.  ( I can dream)

Art

Art, dream on.  Geeps have never had two motors.

Will it also have sound along with the Electric couplers?

Roundhouse Bill posted:

Art, dream on.  Geeps have never had two motors.

I modified one many years ago so that both chassis had motors to give it 8 wheel drive.

Bill

GP7 - do they have the to tall trucks or is it just a poor photo. Does the GP have smoke.  

Thats it...now when you ask for questions for York....

Ben 

I wasn't sure which of the "2017 Catalog" threads was appropriate to post this comment, so I picked the one I was reading most recently.

I was looking at the FlyerChief offerings (I'll probably order a Geep) and thought the Docksider set might be a nifty starter set at a fairly reasonable price. (I should probably add that I have the NYC and SP sets in my collection as well as several of the individual locomotives.) The thing I noticed about the new Pennsy FlyerChief set is that, among the features described, smoke is not mentioned. Sound effects like "chuffing" are noted as well as a switch to turn off the sounds. The illustration does not show the locomotive smoking. On the earlier Docksider offerings, the catalog illustration does show smoke and there's a switch to turn smoke on/off.

So, does that mean the new Pennsy set is a non-smoker? I do recall that Carl Tuveson's TMCC coversion made for a really "fully packed" locomotive, so maybe Lionel didn't feel they could easily fit all the features into that compact model. http://tuveson.com/TMCC-Docksider/TMCC-Docksider.htm

Did anyone notice anything that would suggest that the FlyerChief Docksider will have a smoke feature? Maybe Roundhouse Bill can ask the next time he converses with his Lionel contact.

The catalog in which it was introduced says puffing smoke.

Rich

richabr posted:

The catalog in which it was introduced says puffing smoke.

Rich

Yeah, I see the listing from the previous catalog. Part of what makes me wonder are the features as  listed in the 2016 catalog:

1)RailSounds RC sound system with steam chuffing and background sounds, whistle, bell, and user activated announcements. 2)Puffing smoke. 3)Chuffing sounds in sync with puffing smoke. 4)On/Off switches for smoke and sound.

The 2017 catalog lists:

1)RailSounds RC sound system with steam chuffing and background sounds, whistle, bell, and user activated announcements. 2)On/Off switches for sound.

I recall when the SP Docksider set was first introduced it had several features which the set did not include when finally released (even though some missing features were still printed on the box.)

I guess we'll find out when the product is finally released.

EDIT: I wrote to Lionel requesting clarification concerning the features of the FryerChief Docksider. I will post when I hear back.

EDIT2: I see that Ben (NOTINWI) already got the answer to this question in the GP-7 thread. Alas, no smoke in the FlyerChief Docksider. They should have consulted with Carl Tuveson.