2017 MTH S gauge

I watched the video of Mike's presentation and didn't see anything about S. I've watched several other interviews and they've talked about everything else but S.

Unfortunately, I think the F units haven't been selling well so far. If you look at the MTH website almost every single F unit is still in stock at MTH. Also, I've noticed that there aren't a whole bunch of people rushing to dump their old SHS F units on ebay just to buy the new MTH versions.

That's bad news as far as the prospects for more S from MTH. They told us that they were going to gauge future production on the sales of the F units. Right or wrong, if they aren't selling I wouldn't expect to see them announce anything new anytime soon.

My opinion is MTH should concentrate on DCC for S gauge engines. There is no chance I or anyone have spoken with will invest in retrofitting their S gauge layouts with DCS to run just an F series diesel. If MTH had 4 or 5 S gauge engines in production that were not available from Lionel or AM then I would consider a DCS installation. I doubt that will ever happen. A conventional operator could run the new MTH diesel but why would they spend that much money for a diesel? If I could access all the features with Legacy that would be different. 

I don't think MTH took the right approach to S gauge.  They should have marketed a premier line and a railking line with premier having all the high tech electronics. The F's would have sold better if this approached had been used similar to what American models offers as options.  I think this is a golden opportunity for American models if the can produce F,s in different road names. 

If the F's aren't selling well it's likely because it took 4 years to bring them out.  There isn't a pool of "patient people" in S as there is in O.  Many folks just got tired of waiting.

MTH has certainly squandered the reputation built up by S-Helper Service.

Outside of spending a whole 1.5 seconds on the F-units on the TCA video, there was absolutely no mention of any further production be it cars, locomotives or track.  Mike seems to be more enamored by LEDs and apps at the moment.

AM has their FP7, so it's highly unlikely Ron will do another F.  Since their introduction in 1985, only two roadnames have totally sold out: Southern Pacific and Union Pacific, while the chromed Santa Fe's are in short supply. (Odd, considering Santa Fe never had FP7's.  Must be the sparkle.)

I'd rather see AM rerun the PA's in "DX" versions.

Rusty

dandeo50 posted:

I don't think MTH took the right approach to S gauge.  They should have marketed a premier line and a railking line with premier having all the high tech electronics.

 

MTH's RailKing Line in O has all the same hi-tech electronics that the Premier Line has.  MTH has one electronic system, unlike Lionel which has several competing against itself.

Rusty

MTH should have made their locomotives available in conventional as well as in their DCS system.  Myself as an S Gauge TMCC/Legacy operator hesitate to add another operating system, where-as I would have considered purchasing a conventional engine and adding TMCC to it. Lionel may not be the only manufacturer that is somewhat hard of hearing.

Ray

MTH PS3 locomotives all operate in conventional AC or DC, DCC, or DCS. They're pretty universal and the built in DCC decoders in the PS3 locos is not bad but I haven't yet explored the more advanced programming abilities and speed curves 

I would like to politely point out that SHS sold EMD F units ( F3 and/or F7) in  ATSF, PRR and NYC paint schemes and American Models sells  FP7's in ATSF, NYC, PRR, and UP paint schemes (and has sold  them in most of those schemes since the 1980's)   

So the only new paint schemes on the MTH  F units  were CNJ and Seaboard, which are railroads that do not have a large following among S modelers.  I would have bought an MTH unit if it were in a paint scheme that I did not already own that could have, theoretically, run through the area I model (Western New York).  If it were available in CN, CP,  Erie or NKP paint schemes I would commit now to buy them. 

American Models and SHS (when it was running) were very careful to avoid duplication of products.  

Just sayin'

LittleTommy

LittleTommy posted:

I would like to politely point out that SHS sold EMD F units ( F3 and/or F7) in  ATSF, PRR and NYC paint schemes and American Models sells  FP7's in ATSF, NYC, PRR, and UP paint schemes (and has sold  them in most of those schemes since the 1980's)   

So the only new paint schemes on the MTH  F units  were CNJ and Seaboard, which are railroads that do not have a large following among S modelers.  I would have bought an MTH unit if it were in a paint scheme that I did not already own that could have, theoretically, run through the area I model (Western New York).  If it were available in CN, CP,  Erie or NKP paint schemes I would commit now to buy them. 

American Models and SHS (when it was running) were very careful to avoid duplication of products.  

Just sayin'

LittleTommy

CN and CP had no F3's or F7's.  Both had the FP7 and FP9 however. 

NKP had no F-units of any kind.  The only "cab" units they had were PA1's.

I think if you check, both AM and SHS offer(ed) F-units in AT&SF (passenger), NYC (freight), PRR (freight), UP, Southern, B&O, SP Black Widow and Great Northern.  The duplication in roadnames was there, just different locomotive types.

One thing MTH (and SHS) did do, was offer the F3's in roads that had them.  The same can't be said for AM's FP7.

Now AT&SF, NYC, PRR and UP tend to be "universally popular," so it makes a certain sense to make these roads for a first run.  Sure, MTH could've substituted those with the likes Erie, GM&O, Soo Line and MKT, but I wonder if they would have really sold any better.

Rusty

I interviewed Andy, of MTH, at York and it will appear in the next S Gaugian.  They are doing a new 2018 catalog and it should be out by early fall.  There are new engines, steam and Diesel, in planning.  I won't say what here.  They are planning to release more road names for the F3.

All of their locomotives regardless of guage have DCS (with the current options of DC, Conventional AC, and DCC) and that won't change as it is their standard.  People need to consider that they have a number of options to run DCS without purchasing the most expensive unit.  One is only $59 and it has the locomotive do most everything the normal operator needs.  What the unit does is sort of similar to the FlyerChief for the same price.

  I think people want MTH to produce far more items and faster than they ever will.  Remember that S is a very small market by comparison to their other markets. 

Roundhouse Bill posted:

I interviewed Andy, of MTH, at York and it will appear in the next S Gaugian.  They are doing a new 2018 catalog and it should be out by early fall.  There are new engines, steam and Diesel, in planning.  I won't say what here.  They are planning to release more road names for the F3.

 

Well, unless they're doing all new tooling, that narrows things down to the 2-8-0, any of the five or six EMD switchers SHS made and/or the F7.

A surprise would be SHS's stillborn E7 or the B&O 4-6-0 they were collecting data on.

Regardless, I'm not holding my breath...

Rusty

Roundhouse Bill posted:

I interviewed Andy, of MTH, at York and it will appear in the next S Gaugian.  They are doing a new 2018 catalog and it should be out by early fall.  There are new engines, steam and Diesel, in planning.  I won't say what here.  They are planning to release more road names for the F3.

All of their locomotives regardless of guage have DCS (with the current options of DC, Conventional AC, and DCC) and that won't change as it is their standard.  People need to consider that they have a number of options to run DCS without purchasing the most expensive unit.  One is only $59 and it has the locomotive do most everything the normal operator needs.  What the unit does is sort of similar to the FlyerChief for the same price.

  I think people want MTH to produce far more items and faster than they ever will.  Remember that S is a very small market by comparison to their other markets. 

Awesome! I can't wait until 2022 to see them!

Seriously though... I certainly hope MTH continues to make S products. I welcome a new catalog. Until they start delivering in a more timely manner I'm not holding my breathe. If they get more creative then just doing reruns with DCS then I'll jump in and spend money. As it is, I'll be waiting on new paint schemes. I'm another one voting for Erie.

I spoke with Andy at a trade show back in 2013 about their plans for SHS. At that time they expected to have all of the engines rerun by 2018. Things happen and things change, I get that. A new catalog is great, but it just shows that they haven't given up. It's hardly an endorsement. I hope they make some kind of statement regarding delivery times for the new catalog. They simply can't take 5 years to deliver this time.

I'll be positive though. So they're saying there's a chance....

Entering the S market with the F unit was a wrong decision ! The EMD SW's would the much better starter.

BigAl posted:

Entering the S market with the F unit was a wrong decision ! The EMD SW's would the much better starter.

I'm not sure the current S Proto-3 board would fit in an SW.  If it does manage to fit in an SW/NW, it'll probably be a very tight fit:

We waited 4+ years for the F3 since it was announced. (And MTH still hasn't delivered the last Santa Fe F3A.  May 20th 2017 I'm told...)

We'd probably still be waiting for an SW if one would've been announced in 2013.

Rusty

MTH is developing a whole new S Gauge system including a board.  For the F3 they used a system from a small O Gauge switcher because the F3 is a fat engine.  I advised them on some questions they asked about typical S gauge stuff.

I'm cautiously optimistic. I want to come back to S. When MTH picked up S Helper, I was enthused, but then ...............

Roundhouse Bill posted:

  I think people want MTH to produce far more items and faster than they ever will.  Remember that S is a very small market by comparison to their other markets. 

The S market is very small...and it will continue to be small, mainly because manufacturers/importers like Lionel and MTH seem to manage to find some way to suck the wind out of the market every time a new product is released. It happens time and time again.

Jeff C

Rusty Traque posted:

BigAl posted:

Entering the S market with the F unit was a wrong decision ! The EMD SW's would the much better starter.

I'm not sure the current S Proto-3 board would fit in an SW.  If it does manage to fit in an SW/NW, it'll probably be a very tight fit:

We waited 4+ years for the F3 since it was announced. (And MTH still hasn't delivered the last Santa Fe F3A.  May 20th 2017 I'm told...)

We'd probably still be waiting for an SW if one would've been announced in 2013.

Rusty

My goodness, is there a motor in there somewhere. A little easier to see why it took four years.

Ray

My Advise to MTH is that they should do something new and popular.  Pick an engine that is a big seller in every other gauge that does not exist in "S" and tool it up.  (consider the GS4 SP Daylight as an example of a popular engine not made in S).

Rocco

MTH has already made a decision as to the locomotives they will produce in the short run. a GS4 SP would require a huge tooling expense.  That is why Lionel or anybody else hasn't made one.

I expect MTH will stick with SHS tooling until the entire line is re-released.

Rusty

AmFlyer posted:

My opinion is MTH should concentrate on DCC for S gauge engines. There is no chance I or anyone have spoken with will invest in retrofitting their S gauge layouts with DCS to run just an F series diesel. If MTH had 4 or 5 S gauge engines in production that were not available from Lionel or AM then I would consider a DCS installation. I doubt that will ever happen. A conventional operator could run the new MTH diesel but why would they spend that much money for a diesel? If I could access all the features with Legacy that would be different. 

Engines with PS3 (including the S gauge F units) all have a built in decoder, so they can run on DCS or DCC.

The point I was making is adding DCS to an S gauge engine raises the price. No one in S owns a DCS system and I doubt many will buy them so they can access all the DCS features of just the F unit released. I also doubt many will pay the price for the engine if they are operating conventional AC or DC. Those S scalers who have DCC will likely seriously consider them. I understand that to be about 10% of the total S market.

It is unlikely we will ever be able to access all the DCS features with Legacy and a Cab2. If there were a BT receiver in the engine and a full feature BT app available for an iPhone that would be an attractive alternative assuming all the DCS features worked from the App. 

AmFlyer posted:

The point I was making is adding DCS to an S gauge engine raises the price. No one in S owns a DCS system and I doubt many will buy them so they can access all the DCS features of just the F unit released. I also doubt many will pay the price for the engine if they are operating conventional AC or DC. Those S scalers who have DCC will likely seriously consider them. I understand that to be about 10% of the total S market.

It is unlikely we will ever be able to access all the DCS features with Legacy and a Cab2. If there were a BT receiver in the engine and a full feature BT app available for an iPhone that would be an attractive alternative assuming all the DCS features worked from the App. 

You are casting a wide assumption there. I still own S and I own DCS.

All you need to do is buy a DCS TIU and Wi-Fi module. You don't even need a remote. Then you can download the app and control DCS, TMCC, and Legacy from one system. You can also connect a transformer to the TIU and run AC or DC. You may not have started with DCS, but it will allow you to run everything with the exception of DCC.

I admit I know very little about DCS. I suppose on a simple layout a DCS signal could be added. I am not sure how adding TIU's would work when the layout is powered and controlled with a Layout Control System

By the way, I knew when I posted that earlier comment there would be someone out there running an AC powered S gauge layout with a DCS system! 

Rusty Traque posted:

I expect MTH will stick with SHS tooling until the entire line is re-released.

Rusty

If I was MTH, that is what I would do.

If mth put everything in a 44 toner it will fit in just about any engine. They also have full sounds in Ho so no excuse there. As far as being expensive? Charlie ro at this past spring York had super price far an a-b of like $300. Not expensive at all

AmFlyer posted:

The point I was making is adding DCS to an S gauge engine raises the price.

It is a simple fact of life that MTH is not going to abandon DCS (it's also in MTH's HO and G products) just as Lionel is not going to abandon their TMCC/Legacy.

Rusty

NKP did have a set of F units painted in the bluebird scheme, but they didnt own them ever.  They were on test from EMD prior to thier last order of more Lima Berkshires.  Of coarse we know the result, NKP ordered more steam and sent the F units packing after the tests.   So having a set of F units in NKP colors is prototypical, if you model that one time period when the testing happened.     Mike

AmFlyer posted:

The point I was making is adding DCS to an S gauge engine raises the price. No one in S owns a DCS system and I doubt many will buy them so they can access all the DCS features of just the F unit released. I also doubt many will pay the price for the engine if they are operating conventional AC or DC. Those S scalers who have DCC will likely seriously consider them. I understand that to be about 10% of the total S market.

It is unlikely we will ever be able to access all the DCS features with Legacy and a Cab2. If there were a BT receiver in the engine and a full feature BT app available for an iPhone that would be an attractive alternative assuming all the DCS features worked from the App. 

There's always the app, which appears to be the coming thing, or so I hear...

Rusty

The best entry level DCS will be the DCS explorer that works with the phone APP. It's not available yet.

artfull dodger posted:

NKP did have a set of F units painted in the bluebird scheme, but they didnt own them ever.  They were on test from EMD prior to thier last order of more Lima Berkshires.  Of coarse we know the result, NKP ordered more steam and sent the F units packing after the tests.   So having a set of F units in NKP colors is prototypical, if you model that one time period when the testing happened.     Mike

Well---kinda, sorta, but not quite...

The Indiana Transportation Museum has an ex-Milwaukee Road F-unit painted up in the EMD NKP "demo" scheme:

Not exactly the "Bluebird" scheme as developed by Alco.

Rusty

So, anyway, I would buy an F unit in a NKP paint scheme, whether there was a prototype or even if it is a "fantasy paint scheme", but what I wouldn't do is buy another F3, F7 or FP7 that duplicates an F unit in the same paint scheme that I already own.  

As much as many of us hate "built to order" plans, since the mechanics and the tooling have been produced,  I am sure that, if we could be assured of prompt delivery, many of us would be willing to"preorder"F units  in a given paint scheme with the understanding that ONLY if enough orders were recieved to justify the costs of new paint masks would they be produced.  

LittleTommy

Roundhouse Bill posted:

MTH has already made a decision as to the locomotives they will produce in the short run. a GS4 SP would require a huge tooling expense.  That is why Lionel or anybody else hasn't made one.

Bill,

I did not say the only option was a GS4.  My point is if you want to grow both the line and your sales, you have to make something new, not reissuing old S Helper tooling.  So if one was to create new tooling, do something that has been a success in every other gauge.  If I am correct when MTH stated to make HO they took the chance and tooled up a GS4 which was a great seller for them (It sold out).  The GS4 in HO was available from other manufacturers but MTH took a risk based on that engines popularity and it paid off.  In S there is no other source for a GS4.  

After 4 years MTH has to do some new tooling.  I will not buy any engines from them until I see something new because that will show me the commitment to the product line.  Sorry but that is how I feel. 

Rocco 

I understand what you're saying Rocco, but I don't think a big old steam engine like a Northern of any flavor is gonna happen anytime soon. 

I'd be happy if MTH tooled up a new freight car to show some life.  I unfortunately feel now that anything coming out of MTH in a timely manner would be just this side of a miracle.  As I mentioned earlier, MTH has squandered SHS's good reputation.

I'm hoping to retire soon, so any major locomotive purchase (except for an S Scale Frisco Russian Decapod, I'd scrape up the cash for that...) is pretty much off the table for the foreseeable future.

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:

AmFlyer posted:

The point I was making is adding DCS to an S gauge engine raises the price. No one in S owns a DCS system and I doubt many will buy them so they can access all the DCS features of just the F unit released. I also doubt many will pay the price for the engine if they are operating conventional AC or DC. Those S scalers who have DCC will likely seriously consider them. I understand that to be about 10% of the total S market.

It is unlikely we will ever be able to access all the DCS features with Legacy and a Cab2. If there were a BT receiver in the engine and a full feature BT app available for an iPhone that would be an attractive alternative assuming all the DCS features worked from the App. 

There's always the app, which appears to be the coming thing, or so I hear...

Rusty

You're right about the app(s), Rusty. MTH is betting half the ranch on their free app and Premium app. The pictures are from the large and impressive MTH display in their booth at the York meet a couple of weeks ago. I talked at length with their tech guy, it's a nice package. It runs DCS, a significant part(but not all) of Legacy, and conventional from the same Premium app. They had IPads for their demos. Hard to justify going all in at this time with only one S scale offering, but if they offer more S ...... would have to consider!

Mike

Rocco posted:

After 4 years MTH has to do some new tooling.  I will not buy any engines from them until I see something new because that will show me the commitment to the product line.  Sorry but that is how I feel. 

Rocco 

I hate to be the one to break this to you Rocco but MTH has said very publicly that they won't be making anything new unless people buy the reissues. We can question the wisdom of that decision if we like, but they make (or don't make) the trains.

I feel your pain though.

When I interviewed MTH at York they said that the new locomotives planned should be out soon after the first of the new year and there would not be a long wait like the F3.