2023 Vision line locomotive?

@MichRR714 posted:

How incredibly original of them.

Yeah, most of us were expecting that they would get back to the whole business of what it was to be a Vision Line Locomotive. I had expected some big diesel or electric that hasn't been done. One thing that was in the back of my head for a steamer was either the Milwaukee Road Hiawatha engines, not sure the make on all of them, or the S2 Turbine. The Turbine has been done, and being that only one was ever made, they would maybe make 3 at the most. 671, 681, and 6200. Maybe a pilot version, but they're done right there. What others of that could they make? Money back in the wallet.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Lionel isn't familiar with the smaller and less expensive mantra.   I'm in for the PRR T1 Duplex.

I would love a T1 also. Good idea John.

I'm sure they will sell a bunch of them at an incredible profit, but I'm not terribly interested in this.  That's a whole lot of train dollars that could pay for a slew of other items instead of one engine.  As well and most importantly, I'd sure prefer a new locomotive model rather than an identical v2 with upgraded electronics.  Oh well . . . at least I have my Lionel UP Rocket Train to look forward to.  :-)

@BlueFeather posted:

I'm sure they will sell a bunch of them at an incredible profit, but I'm not terribly interested in this.  That's a whole lot of train dollars that could pay for a slew of other items instead of one engine.  As well and most importantly, I'd sure prefer a new locomotive model rather than an identical v2 with upgraded electronics.  Oh well . . . at least I have my Lionel UP Rocket Train to look forward to.  :-)

I agree. I don't need to buy every VL locomotive that comes out, I'm sort of picky on that from the start. If it's steam, I'll look at it. If it's a Big Boy, not biting. I bought the second run of Challengers because I like that locomotive. I went for one of the coal fired black UP's.

I ordered the Class A because I love N&W. The Southern Pacific run they had, I passed on. There is no doubt that these Big Boys will sell, with new features, new boards of electronics, the latest bells and whistles. However, like some have said, it may not be a selling point of all the bells and whistles meaning not to buy it at all. The first run of depleting coal loads I thought was ridiculous, I wouldn't want an engine doing that for me. If they offered a New York Central Hudson with that feature, I'd skip it for sure even if it was the Dreyfuss. I'd message them saying I don't want that feature, if and when you make it without, I'll buy. No Big Boy for me, ever.

Well, I suppose the upside is they won’t be limited to artist renderings to sell it - they can just recycle actual photos of the previous one.

I’m surprised the demand is high for this remake, especially given the “non-Vision” Legacy and MTH versions that released in the last few years.

@Rider Sandman posted:

Well, I suppose the upside is they won’t be limited to artist renderings to sell it - they can just recycle actual photos of the previous one.

I’m surprised the demand is high for this remake, especially given the “non-Vision” Legacy and MTH versions that released in the last few years.

Exactly. Marty, John,myself and others have said enough with the already been done. When the second set of Challengers came out, okay, but the Big Boy is heading towards overkill. just my opinion on that. Need fresh ideas please.

I was hoping for a k4 since there is currently one being rebuilt right now.  oh well. I'm sure there is gonna be a lot of re-release with some other U.P. items to go along with it.

While I am UP guy and love articulated loco's I am not in for this one I have the first VL Big Boy this is just getting silly make something not done before. Come on Lionel this is the best you got.

Ho-Hum, Looks like just another add to the ever growing disappointment list from Big L.

Doug

I still think a Visionline Shay with log cars or maybe even a Jupiter 4-4-0 with passenger cars would be cool. Tons of smoke everywhere!!

Bigboy..🥱....

It would be a good idea to see a Shay, that is for sure. It really boggles the mind on why they have not done some of the engines that we would think are no brainers. It may probably be what is the popular names, why not a New Haven engine?

No surprise since this item has been on lionelsupport.com for weeks now. Since the item number is 2301050 it's a 2023 item. In my post a few weeks ago, this was the item I was hinting at. Figure if the LCCA is doing a special version, there certainly must be one in Lionel's regular lineup.

LCCA Union Pacific VISIONLINE Big Boy #4023 (lionelsupport.com)

I'm not overly excited about it in general but it does have my favorite features and I don't have a Big Boy. We'll see what the price is though. I'll also need to learn what a force coupler is.

I guess if there's a Big Boy to buy as your first one, this might be it.

I usually cut Lionel more slack than others do, but I think this is a bit ridiculous.  What makes this cutting edge in any way?  Why is a Vision Line?  I get running the Big Boy again, for the money, and I even get upgrading it, but its not like these features are brand new.

@TheRambles posted:

Are you serious. I took this as a joke.

With all the choices  Another BB? oy

@romiller49 posted:

Are you serious. I took this as a joke.

Go to the Lionel homepage. It’s the real deal.

Next vision line locomotive... ..vision line challenger!

A big boy ! More misjudgement about what will sell and bring the max in sales and satisfaction by Lionel in the market it serves.

I can understand the disappointment but hope this is a hugely successful offering.  It also could help replenish parts inventory for the last runs of the big boy, which i think was in 2014? Is that right, if so then this is a repeat of an item that will be close to 10 years old.  I really loved the big boy when it came out, but my layout does not have 72-inch curves, so would have needed to sell my house and get a new one with a room that could fit the 72 or greater curves. Take that back, it would fit in my living room, but I don't think that would fly with the House Manager, my wife. Which got me thinking, what is the demographic group of the potential buyer, so here is my list:

• Single, never married -- You are the master of your universe, (unless of course, you are still living with your parents).
• Divorced, no child or spousal support -- Failed marriages are no fun, but it does offer some freedoms to manage your own life and if you want to put the layout in the family room, go for it. The living room or dining room layout would probably lead to a bachelor's life, the jury is out on how the carpet central layout is viewed by prospective spouses, the "Christmas" Layout is a good test.
• Married and independently wealthy -- Money or space are not a problem, think of Frank Sinatra's separate building and layout in Palm Springs.
• Have a full-time job and great credit score and little or no debt -- these are individuals in their late 50s/ early 60s that are close to retirement but have almost made it, and if the new train purchase does not end your marriage because you can't afford the Mexico Cruise, then you are probably ok.
• Do not have other expensive hobbies,
• Have a full-time job and great credit score and little or no debt, but your adult kid lives with you, however, if they have a son, then you might be able to swing the good for the grandson to learn about electronics and fine motor skills.   
• For most everyone else, anything over $500 is a problem, especially if you use a credit card and don't pay you balances down.   

I surmise that there are probably about 5 people on the OGR forum that are independently wealthy, so the probable buyer of the new Big Boy is not on the forum and doesn't care what we think, and there are a few hundred of them out there that will have no problem dropping $2500 for an engine that they may or may not run. 

Having been divorced/single for about 15 years, at first, all I could afford was the catalog.  Things got better, some the prospective brides liked trains enough to give me a train related gift for the holiday or even go to a train store.   I found the pre-order process was great, Lionel was so late on filling orders, that for the first several years of my second marriage, I could claim that "I pre-order it at Eastside Trains before we were married"

@dk122trains posted:

A big boy ! More misjudgement about what will sell and bring the max in sales and satisfaction by Lionel in the market it serves.

Don, I thought for sure it would be some big diesel to come out. I was telling my brother tonight that exact thing. I had said the last bunch have all been steam, the electric GG1 from 2016(or so), and the Genset Switcher a bit before that. GE Hybrid some time before that. I guess I was wrong. What diesel could they have made into a VL?

I would have thought the next VL steam would be in 2024 as either the S2 Turbine, streamlined Milwaukee Road Hiawatha's, or maybe a streamlined New Haven or PRR Torpedo. Ah, what do I know, lol.

@Former Member posted:

I can understand the disappointment but hope this is a hugely successful offering.  It also could help replenish parts inventory for the last runs of the big boy, which i think was in 2014? Is that right, if so then this is a repeat of an item that will be close to 10 years old.

Most recent run was 2019 volume 2, which means they delivered about 2 years ago.

The choice of a Big Boy isn’t surprising to me and I don’t believe Lionel put that much thought into the decision.  Last vision line engine was a Norfolk and Western Class A.  A big articulated steam engine from all new tooling that was owned by an Eastern railroad.  This time, a big articulated steam engine from existing tooling owned by a Western railroad.  Just my opinion.

@dk122trains posted:

A big boy ! More misjudgement about what will sell and bring the max in sales and satisfaction by Lionel in the market it serves.

and yet a fellow Rotary member,  who owns a hobby/train shop, already has about 4 or 5 inquiries to be put on the list for pre-orders   (and these are legitimate buyers)

The only BigBoy I purchased was the KLine version that was semi-scale. I would like to get rid of the tether between the tender and locomotive.

Terrance

Lionel post a link about winning a new 2023 big boy. Drawing is in March 2023! Fingers crossed.

Seems like this further confirms they are going to cycle through and update all the Visions they have done before.  Challenger, 2-10-10-2 and now BB.   Guess that means the 700 and GG-1 wont be far behind.  I might buy the GG-1 because I missed that one, the prices on eBay are over the top, and I’ve always been worried the pantographs on a used one wouldn’t work right and I’d have no recourse.  

But disappointed it isn’t something new.   I have a BB.  Don’t need another.  

@EscapeRocks posted:

and yet a fellow Rotary member,  who owns a hobby/train shop, already has about 4 or 5 inquiries to be put on the list for pre-orders   (and these are legitimate buyers)

I don't think Don is saying these won't sell. What Don is saying that there are other opportunities that could be had for other engines. This seems more like a safe bet on their part in my opinion. They know it will sell, they have a market for anything UP especially the Big Boy. I would wager that if they went with some big diesel engine by UP they could still get it to sell as there is definitely a market for it. Picture a beast coupled up with another diesel slightly smaller than the beast, and there is your selling point. The beast(whatever engine) plus this helper can pull 90+ cars. That is about the half of it.

There are other engines that they could have gone for in steam, I'm sure that there is definitely a market for just about any steam out there, as long as there are a few road names that hold their weight in the market. I could rattle off a few, but then someone may say I forgot these other railroads. Heck, Lionel has made quite a few fantasy engines to get them to sell, look at the Acela. How many different road names did they fish for(I know, not a VL, but an example)? Point is that just about anything they should think of, they lean over half way where we all seem to think they shouldn't. Are we right, heck, who can say. Regardless, their decision, they'll earn and we'll wait for the next one just like always.

Right Don? @dk122trains

I think this will sell well because enough of us will pay $3000 or more (just guessing!) for a limited run engine,

so why not a BB?

TrainWorld will be having Lionel on TrainWorld TV at 5PM EDT tonight Friday 10-21- 2022 and they will have a sample on display

Gotta put my thoughts in here. First I think a lot of the actual disappointment is because Lionel hyped a new Vision Locomotive. The rest would complain even if it was the exact locomotive they want. Any way let’s look at vision line, traditionally it is a new locomotive in the signature catalog of every even numbered year since 2014 (before that was unpredictable at the rate vision line would come out) ok so with that in mind 2022 we got a vision class A. Why would they be making a newly tooled locomotive in 2023 based from past history. I had already speculated that this would be a rerun but couldn’t understand why they would even mention a new vision locomotive for a rerun. Look at the 2-10-10-2 that was a rerun done in 2021. So assuming that they would rerun a vision locomotive it’s not that surprising they chose big boy look at the rate those locomotives demand on a secondary market. Is there something else that other would’ve rather seen done again like a CC2 or 700E. Probably, let’s also remember we only know what they’ve told us there could be so much more to this locomotive. (I mean their claimed vision feature for the Class A was 4 digit addressing) and big boy in my opinion is a cool locomotive in its own right but it is also probably over done.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

I don't think Don is saying these won't sell. What Don is saying that there are other opportunities that could be had for other engines. This seems more like a safe bet on their part in my opinion. They know it will sell, they have a market for anything UP especially the Big Boy. I would wager that if they went with some big diesel engine by UP they could still get it to sell as there is definitely a market for it. Picture a beast coupled up with another diesel slightly smaller than the beast, and there is your selling point. The beast(whatever engine) plus this helper can pull 90+ cars. That is about the half of it.

There are other engines that they could have gone for in steam, I'm sure that there is definitely a market for just about any steam out there, as long as there are a few road names that hold their weight in the market. I could rattle off a few, but then someone may say I forgot these other railroads. Heck, Lionel has made quite a few fantasy engines to get them to sell, look at the Acela. How many different road names did they fish for(I know, not a VL, but an example)? Point is that just about anything they should think of, they lean over half way where we all seem to think they shouldn't. Are we right, heck, who can say. Regardless, their decision, they'll earn and we'll wait for the next one just like always.

Right Don? @dk122trains

Agree make vision line obtainable for as much of your market as possible.

We are disappointed.  It is a beautiful engine, no doubt about it. But we have a beautiful engine… the last Big Boy.

Not a complaint given the $$$ saved.

@Bill Webb posted:

We are disappointed.  It is a beautiful engine, no doubt about it. But we have a beautiful engine… the last Big Boy.

Not a complaint given the $$$ saved.

Totally agree. I have said that I thought almost 100% that a diesel would be coming as it made sense to me given how many of the last bunch of the VL have been steam. Well, I guess we'll have to wait for next time yet again. No worries.

I watched the virtual train show on Lionel's channel and the discussion with Trainworld, and it sounds like the new company line is that VisionLine will be all new tooling every other year, with the intervening years a re-release with updated electronics.  i.e. even years are new tooling, odd years are updated re-runs.

I suppose it makes sense, but it was presented like everyone knew/should have known this when, uhhh, that's not the case.

"new company line is that VisionLine will be all new tooling every other year, with the intervening years a re-release with updated electronics.  i.e. even years are new tooling, odd years are updated re-runs."

THAT'S WHAT THEY SAY, LET'S SEE WHAT THEY DO!

How well did they do with the newly tooled Class A?  I've not seen one in person - was it an improvement over the beautiful 2000 model in appearance or mechanically? If it was a success it would seem that the next likely candidate would be a newly tooled T1? They could just issue the Big Boy as an updated model rather than 'claim' vision class.

In the 2000 Aniversary Catalog Lionel offered 3 completely new large steamers - the PRR T1, the N&W Class A, and B&O EM1. That was quite an accomplishment when you think about it (unless you consider the 'unusual' circumstances under which they may have obtained some of the designs...)

Vision Line has lost its Original Vision and Lionel is just slapping the name on everything I remember when it was announced I was excited and now they watered it down.

One thing I don’t really understand is why are they releasing these “retooled” models of steam locomotives of which they already had wonderful versions.

Was the JLC Big Boy not good enough? I can understand upgrading the electronics and adding new sounds and features. But if tooling for these locomotives is really that expensive, why are they bothering to replace perfectly good ones?

Especially in lieu of some models of never before done prototypes or of prototypes they have that are poor representations.