2023 Vision line locomotive?

@zhubl posted:

Gotta put my thoughts in here. First I think a lot of the actual disappointment is because Lionel hyped a new Vision Locomotive. The rest would complain even if it was the exact locomotive they want. Any way let’s look at vision line, traditionally it is a new locomotive in the signature catalog of every even numbered year since 2014 (before that was unpredictable at the rate vision line would come out) ok so with that in mind 2022 we got a vision class A. Why would they be making a newly tooled locomotive in 2023 based from past history. I had already speculated that this would be a rerun but couldn’t understand why they would even mention a new vision locomotive for a rerun. Look at the 2-10-10-2 that was a rerun done in 2021. So assuming that they would rerun a vision locomotive it’s not that surprising they chose big boy look at the rate those locomotives demand on a secondary market. Is there something else that other would’ve rather seen done again like a CC2 or 700E. Probably, let’s also remember we only know what they’ve told us there could be so much more to this locomotive. (I mean their claimed vision feature for the Class A was 4 digit addressing) and big boy in my opinion is a cool locomotive in its own right but it is also probably over done.

The rest would complain even if it was the exact locomotive they want.

no truer words have been spoken, …….😉

Pat

@rplst8 posted:

One thing I don’t really understand is why are they releasing these “retooled” models of steam locomotives of which they already had wonderful versions.

Was the JLC Big Boy not good enough? I can understand upgrading the electronics and adding new sounds and features. But if tooling for these locomotives is really that expensive, why are they bothering to replace perfectly good ones?

Especially in lieu of some models of never before done prototypes or of prototypes they have that are poor representations.

How much?  Bueller?  $3.000?

Unlike others here I like this choice. I missed the first vison big boy. at the time I did not have the money. if the price is right I am all in for this model. most visionline big boys on the secondary market are over $4000.

I already have the excursion version of the big boy. I would get the coal fired version with the elephant ears on this vision line offering. the force coupler feature is going to make this model stand out over the other visionline big boy IMO.

I just hope dave olson fixes the depleting coal load feature weakness. the rubber coal load attachment was sub-par. this part needsto be attached like alex m. did on a fix some years ago to one. this would make this feature more reliable and robust. just saying.

Anyone have an idea of MSRP???  GUESS??

@Don Beck posted:

Anyone have an idea of MSRP???  GUESS??

Will not have a price until January when the new catalog comes out

@c.sam posted:

In the 2000 Anniversary Catalog Lionel offered 3 completely new large steamers - the PRR T1, the N&W Class A, and B&O EM1. That was quite an accomplishment when you think about it (unless you consider the 'unusual' circumstances under which they may have obtained some of the designs...)

If memory serves me, the Class A Lionel introduced in 2000 was a design of MTH and part of the lawsuit that later ensued. The PRR T1 was a disputed design as well but I'm not sure of its origins. That is why Lionel had to create a new tooling with the N&W A Class. I was curious if it was successful and an improvement of the earlier model in any way other than electronics.

I didn’t realize the tooling for the Class A was MTH’s.  I thought the C&O Allegheny was what was spawned the lawsuit. That said, I was just barely dipping my toe in the O-scale market then. Actually, it was more like 2002 I think when I even became aware of MTH and the locomotives that had smoke and sounds.

Anyway, I have the Lionel scale T1 and the MTH version and they are nothing alike. I don’t know how it could be disputed.

@rplst8 posted:

Was the JLC Big Boy not good enough? I can understand upgrading the electronics and adding new sounds and features. But if tooling for these locomotives is really that expensive, why are they bothering to replace perfectly good ones?

So they can charge thousands for a locomotive and put the Visionline name on it I guess?

Why would you need to replace tooling so often just for an extra smoke or sound feature.

I guess I don't understand exactly what all the tooling does.

@rplst8 posted:

One thing I don’t really understand is why are they releasing these “retooled” models of steam locomotives of which they already had wonderful versions.

Was the JLC Big Boy not good enough? I can understand upgrading the electronics and adding new sounds and features. But if tooling for these locomotives is really that expensive, why are they bothering to replace perfectly good ones?

They don’t retool the big boy every time they do it both the 2014 vision line and the 2019 LEGACY all use the original tooling from the JLC Big Boy. They may have some “minor” repairs to the tool as it’s used/ any small modifications for new features.

I would like to see them move the dynamo where it belongs on top of the boiler. I don’t think that’d be too hard it should all be separately applied brass parts just don’t make the one under the cab and drill a hole for one to go in up top

@zhubl posted:

They don’t retool the big boy every time they do it both the 2014 vision line and the 2019 LEGACY all use the original tooling from the JLC Big Boy. They may have some “minor” repairs to the tool as it’s used/ any small modifications for new features.

I would like to see them move the dynamo where it belongs on top of the boiler. I don’t think that’d be too hard it should all be separately applied brass parts just don’t make the one under the cab and drill a hole for one to go in up top

You want Vision Line to be accurate??? Its already the very best or at least it was supposed to be.

@Shawn_Chronister posted:

You want Vision Line to be accurate??? Its already the very best or at least it was supposed to be.

To be clear it IS accurate as the locomotives left ALCO.

My Vision is the Big Boy in NYC  gray with Dreyfuss paint scheme and wheels used on Lionel Mohawk or niagara with either pacemaker box cars or NYC reefers behind it.. Would you buy it? Fantasy sells!!!

@c.sam posted:

How well did they do with the newly tooled Class A?  I've not seen one in person - was it an improvement over the beautiful 2000 model in appearance or mechanically? If it was a success it would seem that the next likely candidate would be a newly tooled T1? They could just issue the Big Boy as an updated model rather than 'claim' vision class.

In the 2000 Aniversary Catalog Lionel offered 3 completely new large steamers - the PRR T1, the N&W Class A, and B&O EM1. That was quite an accomplishment when you think about it (unless you consider the 'unusual' circumstances under which they may have obtained some of the designs...)

Sam, I think the Class A's should be due in around the end of the year. I know that the model they had at York 2021 was a 3D printed shell, which there are pictures of on the forum here and there. It is good to note though as Ryan and Dave say about catalog art and 3D printed shells, "this is not necessarily the end product as there will be variations to it or changes."

I am one of those that has ordered one of the Class A's and can't wait to see it in person. It should be something else when it comes out. I don't have any doubt that when this new Big Boy arrives it will be much of the same awe that we know that we all like. Of course, some of us don't want this new Big Boy, but that doesn't mean we won't look at it and say it is a decent or good model. I guess time will tell as always.

@dk122trains posted:

My Vision is the Big Boy in NYC  gray with Dreyfuss paint scheme and wheels used on Lionel Mohawk or niagara with either pacemaker box cars or NYC reefers behind it.. Would you buy it? Fantasy sells!!!

No. If it were a Fantasy NYC Challenger, maybe. Not a Big Boy fan. Sorry Don.

Just a thought but, since EVERYTHING made for PRR and/or NYC sure seems to sell out, over and over and over, why has there never been a scale NYC K Class Pacific produced for the 3-Rail market?

@Hot Water posted:

Just a thought but, since EVERYTHING made for PRR and/or NYC sure seems to sell out, over and over and over, why has there never been a scale NYC K Class Pacific produced for the 3-Rail market?

Didn't 3rd Rail or someone else produce K2 was it in either the late 1990's or early 2000's? I seem to remember someone saying some time back about something other than K4's please as the other class in question was also largely used from what I understood by there post.

@dk122trains posted:

My Vision is the Big Boy in NYC  gray with Dreyfuss paint scheme and wheels used on Lionel Mohawk or niagara with either pacemaker box cars or NYC reefers behind it.. Would you buy it? Fantasy sells!!!

Don, How about an actual NYC Mallet? Paint it anyway you like, Just include one in prototypical black. That might actually make me buy a new Lionel locomotive again.

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/nyc1933.jpg

Pete

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Didn't 3rd Rail or someone else produce K2 was it in either the late 1990's or early 2000's?

Maybe, but that would have been a PRR locomotive. Please note that I was referring to an NYC, i.e. New York Central K Class Pacific (K5?).

I seem to remember someone saying some time back about something other than K4's please as the other class in question was also largely used from what I understood by there post.

Again, you are referring to PRR locomotives and NOT NYC locomotives.

@Norton posted:

Don, How about an actual NYC Mallet? Paint it anyway you like, Just include one in prototypical black.

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/nyc1933.jpg

Pete

I would go for that too Pete. I know that the USRA one they produced a few years back wasn't exactly the model to the prototype, I forget what the differences were exactly, but that's okay. I wish they would get to the Mallet as well as some of the other switchers that they had. I think somewhere I read they had some 0-8-8-0's to go along with some of the other engines in their switchers.

@Hot Water posted:

Ah, that is what I couldn't remember, K5's. That's what it was. I think I crossed my railroads yet again. Lionel did the N&W K's, that's what was sticking in my head. Thanks for clearing that up.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

I would go for that too Pete. I know that the USRA one they produced a few years back wasn't exactly the model to the prototype, I forget what the differences were exactly, but that's okay. I wish they would get to the Mallet as well as some of the other switchers that they had. I think somewhere I read they had some 0-8-8-0's to go along with some of the other engines in their switchers.

They had those too Dave. NU-1b. Both are pretty homely but unique. The front engine is the big difference on the NS-2 2-6-6-2’s from the USRA 2-6-6-2.

https://www.railarchive.net/ny...ction/ple9090_wk.htm

I considered modifying one but would require a lot of scratch built  parts. Maybe when I am done with my current project.

Pete

@Hot Water posted:

Just a thought but, since EVERYTHING made for PRR and/or NYC sure seems to sell out, over and over and over, why has there never been a scale NYC K Class Pacific produced for the 3-Rail market?

Agreed another void not filled for NYC.

Not sure if Lionel got the triplex tooling from MTH, but if they did, it would be really cool. Either way, I wouldn't be able to afford it, but I think it would be a big seller.

@Hot Water posted:

Just a thought but, since EVERYTHING made for PRR and/or NYC sure seems to sell out, over and over and over, why has there never been a scale NYC K Class Pacific produced for the 3-Rail market?

Hot Water,

I have been asking the same question for years. In my opinion, the New York Central K-Class Pacific was as significant a locomotive as the NYC Hudson. They were widely used and I think a model would sell well to the large clientele that buys New York Central.

As far as the Big Boy is concerned, I bought an MTH version years ago. I'm satisfied with it so have no reason to pay Lionel's high price for another one. The latest features aren't something I absolutely must have.

I think that the most likely buyers of the latest Big Boy are people who have gotten into the hobby recently and who want a model of the largest locomotive they can find. Plus, the tooling already exists so it's not a major investment decision for Lionel to reuse it.  I suspect that most of the long-time O gauge people like myself already have a Big Boy and can't justify spending a lot of cash to replace it. I would prefer to see Lionel offering small to medium size locomotives that haven't been made previously in it's Vision Line - such as the New York Central Pacific. The small and medium-sized locomotives are also more practical to run on most people's layouts and the prices would probably be more affordable.

MELGAR

@dk122trains posted:

Agreed another void not filled for NYC.

We'll have to see what comes out in the next catalog. I know that there will probably be something NYC, but will it be something we haven't seen before in O?

@Hebanator posted:

Not sure if Lionel got the triplex tooling from MTH, but if they did, it would be really cool. Either way, I wouldn't be able to afford it, but I think it would be a big seller.

Well, we can speculate what toolings they got, won't know anything either until they tell us or produce something. I'm not a fan of the Triplex, but I can see it's draw for some as it is an oddball looking engine.

@MELGAR posted:

I suspect that most of the long-time O gauge people like myself already have a Big Boy and can't justify spending a lot of cash to replace it. I would prefer to see Lionel offering small to medium size locomotives that haven't been made previously in it's Vision Line - such as the New York Central Pacific. The small and medium-sized locomotives are also more practical to run on most people's layouts and the prices would probably be more affordable.

MELGAR

There are going to be a bunch of folks who didn't get the BB earlier, for whatever reason, or may now have layouts that can accomodate them, perhaps. There's also a market for people with deep pockets, who can afford to spend $3000 for a shelf display. Lots of folks keep their collections of trains on display most of the time anyway, and if you were to add up the price of a number of those engines on display, it's way more than $3000. So probably the idea of a BB sitting on a shelf isn't so off-beat. To a lot of fans, it's art, and they get enjoyment out of just looking at it. I can understand that.

I entirely agree, though, with the point of offering small and medium-size locomotives, and that they obviously more practical to run for the largest market (including at a more approachable price). Most people don't have layouts that begin to approach the size you need for even scale Northerns, let alone things like E units and 21" passengers cars or freight cars over 50' or Big Boys. The popularity of the "48" club gives insight to the reality.

If Lionel does another Vision re-run, I would think another NYC Hudson would be on the short list. Yes, people groan that the last thing we need is another Hudson, but the earlier Vision Hudson was a big seller, and remains in high demand. They are extremely hard to find in the marketplace. Saw one on the Bay, new, asking $3800/offer plus $85 shipping.

The Lionel scale T1 Duplex is even harder to find and it's only TMCC!  I'd love to see a vision line version of that one.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The Lionel scale T1 Duplex is even harder to find and it's only TMCC!  I'd love to see a vision line version of that one.

With wheels that you don't have to taper down so they don't derail on Ross track switches.

@breezinup posted:

If Lionel does another Vision re-run, I would think another NYC Hudson would be on the short list. Yes, people groan that the last thing we need is another Hudson, but the earlier Vision Hudson was a big seller, and remains in high demand. They are extremely hard to find in the marketplace.

Yes, but use the KLine j1e tooling this time. So it's a more respectable scale model.

I just couldn't get past the welded steam chests, rectangular valve guides, lack of builders plates etc. In order to buy one.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

With wheels that you don't have to taper down so they don't derail on Ross track switches.

Yes, there's no reason to use those racing slicks on the blind wheels!

Okay, so I finally got to watch the Trainworld Live event with Lionel, and here is something I did not know that Ryan and Dave had said(maybe before, IDK). They said that new Vision Line Locomotives would be even years, like 2018(Niagara), 2020(GS Series), 2022(Class A), the odd years would be a chance for repeat productions of engines that people have missed. Of course this remake engines bit didn't start until 2021 with the Santa Fe rerun of the 2-10-10-2's. Never really thought about that. Dave said that was how this would work going forward. So, we can expect repeats for the odd years, new designed engines the even years. So, I guess we get to wait for 2024's new idea that has never been done before. We can again begin the speculation, lol.

Of course 2018 they had the Challenger in the Volume 2, I think they did that because they knew they were doing a Legacy Big Boy in the 2019 Volume 2.

That is kind of cool that will be doing re-issues every other year.  If you couldn't get one the first time, now you may be able to snag one without paying double the price on secondary market for a vision line engine.

@Sean's Train Depot posted:

That is kind of cool that will be doing re-issues every other year.  If you couldn't get one the first time, now you may be able to snag one with paying double the price on secondary market for a vision line engine.

You'll just get to pay double the price directly to Lionel!

(I kid, I kid, I get why prices are going up and don't begrudge Lionel)

The only question that we will be asking in the odd numbered years are what will the repeats be. So I would say that there is definitely room for improvement on what has already been done to be repeated. They did a little bit with this new Big Boy, what could they strive for in other repeats?

There are tons of other desirable models, why have any repeats?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

There are tons of other desirable models, why have any repeats?

Well, I guess one reason is to fill the off time for a new VL model. I guess profits above ingenuity?

@Sean's Train Depot posted:

That is kind of cool that will be doing re-issues every other year.  If you couldn't get one the first time, now you may be able to snag one with paying double the price on secondary market for a vision line engine.

You only pay double the price if your that ignorant. I never pay over msrp because there is always someone willing to sell it for a reasonable price instead of trying to gouge. Case and point @zhubl just sold a legacy set for a very good price on the forum and I commend him for not taking advantage of his fellow hobbyists.

Will they ever Re-re the Vision Centepede?