212 Alco Santa Fe

My 229 Minneapolis has nothing more than a clip that is part of the frame to hold the battery.  It's easy to miss.  I only figured it out after looking up the instruction sheet in the K-Line Lionel postwar repair book.

Thanks Samplingman.

I  will take a closer look.  But which is correct for the set and why two versions of  the same engine?

The ones made after 1958 have the horn, so one of yours is early and one is later. The battery holder is next to the horn relay.  It is not anything like the battery holders in the GM diesel F3s. 

If it has a horn relay, it has a battery holder.

The horn relay bracket is part of the battery holder.

Those ALCOs take a "C" battery. You have to remove the cab to install / replace the battery.

The 212 should have a horn.

If you have a 212 cab on a chassis without a horn, then either it was removed, or someone swapped shells (very common).

Here is the service manual page

Whether a specific ALCO has a horn is not a matter of the year it was made. Lionel made various models with and without horns to hit a certain price point.

There are  variations in motors, collector trucks, headlight bulb socket, and in the frame itself.

Shells are often found on the wrong chassis because at one time it was common to match a nice shell with a nice chassis, without concern for whether it was a "proper" factory configuration. In the early 1970's Lionel cleared out a quantity of 2024 C&O and 2041 Rock Island ALCO shells from their parts department. So those two shells are often found on the wrong chassis. (finding them on the correct chassis is actually a bit of a challenge). Unlettered 2041 Rock Island shells are  fairly easy to find.

CW:  The Greenberg repair manual only shows units in 1958 and later with a horn. Even after 1958 not every unit had a horn.   

quote:

CW:  The Greenberg repair manual only shows units in 1958 and later with a horn. Even after 1958 not every unit had a horn.   

 I interpreted your earlier comment as saying that ALCOs made before 1958 did not have horns, and that ALCOs made from 1958 and on did. Which is not so.

The 212 Santa Fe made in '64-'66 was the last postwar Alco to have a mechanical battery operated horn. The correct chassis would have a 2 position reverse unit and 2 traction tires.

CW: I changed my entry to be more correct!.  I read all your posts because you have such a breadth of knowledge.  Enjoy!

Most ALCO's had their motor trucks mounted by two posts that passed through slots in the frame and were held in place by an arrangement of a cup washer, a spring, and a tinnerman's clip.
Some ALCO's (and some switchers) used a different mounting system. The motor truck had a post on one end, and a hook on the other. The corresponding frame only has one slot, and the opening for the motor is larger.

Does anybody know which locomotives used this arrangement?

From my observations, motor trocks 1963 and later used the hook arrangement,

the 212 Santa Fe Alco, 221 Rio Grande, 221 Olive USMC and 221 Olive Santa Fe and late 634 Santa Fe switchers and the 645 Union Pacific switcher. Add the 1066 UP Alco also.

Thanks!

I beleive set 11590 is from '65-'66. But yes, to be correct it should have a horn.

We would need to know which motor, collector truck, and headlight socket is mounted on your frame.

If you are not concerned about being factory correct, almost any ALCO shell will fit, including many Modern era ones.  The main point of concern being whether you want one with an open pilot for the front coupler, or a closed pilot for a chassis without a front coupler.
There are a few Postwar shells that do not have the e-unit slot, and the E-unit slot was removed from Modern era shells when they went to electronic e-units.

A 212 Santa Fe has a front truck coupler. Any MPC Alco after the first 8020 or 8022 Santa Fe has a closed pilot. The choice is some what limited if you want to keep the front coupler. The best bet is going to be another Santa Fe, like 218, 215, 220. The most likely shell you might find loose is a 2024 C&O or a 2041 Rock Island. If you grind the stud off that holds the front coupler and remove it, your choice expands. 

I love this forums I have 2 alco's both #218 neither horn would work on them so I just figured bad horns never knew a battery went in these ones I thought the ones that needed batteries had a holder on the bottom learn something new everyday. HMM

Oh well I upgraded one to tmcc. just looked at the removed parts and yep a battery holder.

Lots of great info here......makes me remember that although I love and run the new electronic stuff with all the bells and whistles........my roots are that I started out as a collector and operator of PostWar Lionel.

Peter

my 218's this has been updated to tmcc with a err ac commander. thinking of doing railsounds and electro couplers I would like the reverse lights to light up the dummy A at the rear of the A-B-A only thing I don't like is there is no windows in it and you see all the electronics inside now.

Ok  I will pull the shell and check out the motor and the light.  Also give a looksee at the collector truck and describe as best I am able...Thanks again, Chuck.

The main thing to check on the pilot truck is whether it is mostly plastic with a sheet metal top frame, or almost entirely made of metal.

On the motor truck, the most basic question is whether is has magnetraction, tire traction, or no traction aids.

The drive gear from the armature could be on it's own shaft in the middle of the truck, or on one of the wheel's axles.

There are some trucks that only have one pair of wheels driven.

Other than the shells Chuck mentioned, the 2024 C&O and 2041 Rock Island, most postwar shells are tough to find in nice shape, and are kind of pricey. IMHO, the chassis would have to be extremely clean to make it worthwhile. Otherwise, I'd suggest making it into a runner, with a modern era shell.

I mounted a set of modern era New Haven shells on a postwar chassis. They had an open pilot for the front coupler. But they did not have an e-unit slot. I removed the e-unit switch, and mounted a small toggle switch in the bottom of the fuel tank to control the e-unit. The handle is hidden by the sides of the fuel tank.

Hi CW;

I want to thank you all for helping me with this Alco dilemma.  I finally got the set correct with the proper engine.  I merely swapped the good shell from the non horn engine and placed it upon the "horny" engine with the broken cowl shell. 

So now I have left a 212 ALCO engine, no horn.  It is a 212 shell with a cracked cowl on the front portion of the shell for the operating front coupler. 

It doesn't seem good economics to place a new shell upon this chassis, unless I find one very inexpensively, so I think it may make more sense to merely sell the chassis on ebay to someone who may have a good shell.  The chassis and motor are very good.  No rust and motor is strong  Lights up well too.

Any ideas on the value of a good chassis and strong motor?

Last but not least, I could also just keep it for a daily runner...

What would you guys do? 

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Any ideas on the value of a good chassis and strong motor?

If you have some feedback history, provide good pictures, and a good description, I think you will do well on Ebay. I haven't purchased any running chassis on Ebay in a while, so I am not up on current prices. All I can say is that they go for more than I am willing to pay.

If part of the bar across the bottom of the coupler opening is gone, I would just trim the bar to be flush with the sides of the opening.

Personally, I would keep it as a runner which could always be used as a donor engine later.