246x has little power in forward

Welcome to the forum!

The Scout engines such as the 246X have plastic bodied motors that cannot be serviced easily. All the wheels need to be pulled off so that the motor case can be split to gain access to the innards.

Here is a page from the service manual showing the internals of the motor. If you do open it, clean everything with Naphtha. The two drum and brush holders have to go together a certain way for the mechanism to function properly.

The wheels need to be pressed on carefully after service, or the plastic case will crack.

These motors were a nightmare to service, and it is not recommended for the faint of heart.

Larry

^^what Larry said.  Even the Lionel service manuals from the 1950s suggested replacing the motor with the compatible 2034-100 or 250-100 motors.  These are readily available on eBay and embody the robust construction and reliability of Lionel's better motors.  It should be a drop-in replacement for your existing plastic four-wheel powered chassis.  My $.02.

It sounds like you had it apart. They ARE a juggling act though, often needing paper or string hold brushes in for assembly of chassis; etc.

Not all parts interchange either.

Wear, dust, and/or grooved armature contacts at the lead edge of the three pads can effect pull per direction. Wrong/bad/worn brushes AND soft springs too(heat can soften them; pressure is key) Clean brush tubes too!

Brush faces should be squared to plumb añd armature pads dressed/sanded.

Brush dust buildup in the space between pads is a common cause and a recent dressing of parts creates a bit more dust at first than usual as a "break in" occurs. I.e. it may just need another armature cleaning; and the frequency of recleaning may taper off.I scrape the space with a toothpick (careful of the arm. wire down inside each space)

Other causes might be a shorted field near the left or right of he field coil, improper brushplate/position or wiring<timing (but much wiring is just spring metal traces in those.

 If I recall, the field actually moves mechanically for reversing on some too. Maybe it isn't fully returning to it's fwd seating.

These are not "great" motors. Built as cheap as possible really. I'd consider a new loco. Or just maybe a nostalgic repower with an all metal motor or can motor chassis if you "give up". (there are differences motor wheelbases mounting points, tourque,e  but finding and adapting one uzually isn't hard.)

Thank you everyone for the replies. I am not giving up yet.

Not sure we are talking about the same engine. I opened it up this morning and have attached some pictures. Looking pretty grungy again. Even in its crippled state, this one gets used LOTS!

I think this originally came in set 6-30127 so it is a newer engine (?around 2012?), made in China and the motor seems fairly easy to replace. I have attached a pdf of what I think is the parts breakdown from the Lionel website. Can someone confirm? The engine is not the right color in the pdf.

Does anyone have experience with an engine running weak in forward? If so, does a motor replacement usually do the trick?

At any rate, I am going to clean it up again and get it back together before the kids return home because I am sure this is the first engine they'll grab.

Thanks again for all the help!

mattio129 posted:

Does anyone have experience with an engine running weak in forward?

On this model it may be the smoke unit that is causing the problem - it should be connected to the reverse unit. Turn the smoke off.

mattio129 posted:

If so, does a motor replacement usually do the trick

Try switching the two power leads to the motor first - if it now runs poorly in reverse, it's not a motor issue.

mattio129 posted:

 

Not sure we are talking about the same engine.

You're right! The first few posters were referring to a postwar Lionel scout engine of the 1950s.

Do what Rob suggested and try switching the motor leads to determine if the problem is in the can motor or elsewhere.

Jim

Yep, what Rob said.  I thought you were referring to the original #246 which was made in the late 1950s!

It used to be possible to remove the wires from the motor by pulling them STRAIGHT out (assuming sufficient slack.)  This is a newer motor with a yellow nylon end bell and capacitors (little orange beads); I haven't messed with one, and I'm not sure if it's still possible to remove the wires in this manner.

Bottom line: if possible I would avoid de-soldering from the motor terminals.  Too much heat will ruin the motor.  The capacitors make things more difficult too.  A safer approach might be to cut the motor leads somewhere between the motor and the circuit board.  Switch them around and twist back together for test purposes.

If it isn't the smoke unit, then it could be the circuit board hanging out over the rear axle.  They aren't expensive, but make sure you get the right one for your loco.  Also, these locos have a simple design, but don't like abuse!  8-10 cars max or you're overloading the motor and related circuitry.  Good luck!!

The E-Unit and motors (or both) go out on these quite often.  Disconnect the motor wires and use DC and check for high current draw or needed high voltage.  If the E-unit looks burnt you'll know that as well which burns out due to the motor pulling high current.  At work or I could provide better guidance or pics.

Jim

Anyone have wiring diagrams/schematics/parts breakdown/repair manual for these newer scout models?

No real need for diagrams or schematics.  The E-Unit is only 6 wires in 3 pairs.   Center Rail & Outside Rail,  Reverse Switch wires 1 & 2, Motor wires 1 & 2.  Get the Motor wires crossed and the engine would start up in reverse.  

A Parts list is available on Lionel Part site.

I pretty much just replace the E-Unit & motor when I work on these, if the smoke unit isn't working then that too.  One of the easier repairs.  Any of use Lionel Service centers would most likely have the parts in stock as well.   You can do it!

Motor listed below, on the E-Unit it looks like the newer conventional one.  Need to see a pic of it, or the actual Lionel Product number to be sure.  The E-Unit pictured is even one with the wires socketed - no soldering other than the motor.

Mattio, I'm sure that somewhere on the internet exists the line drawing illustration of this type of locomotive. I have the Greenberg book which shows it. On the Lionel website, there's a downloadable listing of parts supplements, but I have no idea which supplement this loco would be in. I'd have to do some digging to find it, as I do have some of those supplements downloaded.

Basically this is the same motor frame used in pretty much all of the Lionel 4-4-2 and 2-4-2 starter set steam engines with DC motor and electronic circuit board reverse unit, pre-Lionchief. Matter of fact, the sheet metal frame assembly with motor is the same one used in the DC only steam locos from the late 1980's-early 1990's minus the electronic circuit board e-unit and smoke unit. So it is a common part that's been around for a while.

As another troubleshooting possibility to what has already been suggested above, you might want to look at the gear retainer (part 14 from your included Scout list parts PDF from Lionel). It is on the opposite side of the loco as shown by your second photograph. This retainer is on the same side as the gear tooth attached to the motor. The retainer holds a gear and is held on to the sheet metal frame with two screws. If there is a crack or a break in this piece, it might result in the problem you are having. This happened to me once, which is why I suggest it.

Usually in most cases, if the DC can motor is bad, it won't work in either forward or reverse. While your engine is apart from the die cast shell, try hooking up a couple wires and watch the motor and gears from the other side of your second photo. Wires with alligator clips would be handy. One wire to anywhere on the sheet metal frame, and another to the roller pick ups. Check and see if anything with the gears or motor appears to be off.

Or you could use the two prongs sticking from the backside of the motor. Just be careful as you don't want to break those from the motor.

Yes, these basic engines are pretty good runners and reliable. My oldest one is now close to 30 years old. And because they were made in very large quantities, parts are generally available from Lionel parts dealers. Or in an extreme case you can sometimes more economically purchase another second hand one engine to breakdown and cob for parts.

I had to replace the smoke unit after about 13 years, but that is to be expected given the use I'd given it.

@Jim Sandman, the only fly in the oinment (and I don't know for certain... maybe you do) is if a different gear is being used for the Lionchief version. On one parts listing, I saw a motor for a Lionchief steam loco that mentioned the motor gear had, I think, 7 teeth.

I do know that with the similar style K-Line engines (S-2, MP-15, etc) with DC truck mounted motors, the motors are not interchangeable between similar Lionel types of engines because of the number of gear teeth on the motor gear. Even though on first appearance, the motors look practically identical.

This seems to be the parts breakdown for the 246X loco you have.

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...25-a2e1-4255fe340efb

Larry

It doesn't look like the Lionchief PCB though!  A different E-Unit was used for a couple years before the LionChief movement.  I just pulled one of these out of my parts supply, it appears to be:

I was curious about that yellow motor, so I dug around on the LionelSupport.com parts website.

NONE of the NASCAR or conventional 2-4-2s from this vintage seem to have a parts listing.  The LionChief variants (30183, 30214, etc.) have exploded diagrams.

One of the interesting things I know is that around this time (2012), the LionChief versions got a different intermediate gear with a lower gear ratio, presumably for better slow-speed operation.  I wonder whether any conventional 2-4-2's also got the lower gear ratio, and how the yellow end motor with capacitors compares to the more common one with a white end bell.

TrainLarry posted:

This seems to be the parts breakdown for the 246X loco you have.

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...25-a2e1-4255fe340efb

 

Larry

TrainLarry, just curious... what did you have to search for to get that diagram?

Jim Sandman posted:

It doesn't look like the Lionchief PCB though!  A different E-Unit was used for a couple years before the LionChief movement.  I just pulled one of these out of my parts supply, it appears to be:

Correct. This is not a Lionchief loco. I can verify the PCB in the picture matches the one in the loco when I get it apart again.

Thank you everyone for the great info.!

To get the diagram I went to Lionel's support site for Replacement Parts and typed in ''246X'' in the search box. See here. Select the Loco link, and that's it.

Larry

Thanks! I never seem to have luck when it comes to Lionel parts searches.

Update... I was able to switch the motor leads right at the connector (very carefully released the pins from the plastic connector housing). Now it runs beautifully in forward and not in reverse. That rules out the motor. Does this mean that the PCB is bad?

So it runs forward now but not reverse since you reversed the wires?  If so likely the PCB...

Part number in the pic of the PCB I posted above.  Zoom in.  Lionel has these in stock (me too).

Jim