3 Rail to 2 Rail Locomotive Conversions

@harmonyards posted:

I have the NWSL O quartering jig,…..a little fidgety until you get the hang of it,….their crank pin cups I find to be sloppy on most of the wheel sets I’ve worked on,…I’ve long since machined various crank pin cups with better fitment/alignment….I’ve even made cups for MTH products, and use the jig on captured axle frames…..I use an inexpensive arbor that I bought and modified solely for the NWSL jig,….having everything locked down frees up your hands to position stuff for the pressings….I’m not sure if NWSL still produces it or not….I’ve had mine for 20 some odd years now…..

Pat

Do you know the part number for the jig?

@Hudson J1e posted:

Not that I know of by just looking at a car. Looking up information from the original importer may give you the answer.

That is so awesome that you have the skills to machine your own drivers. I would definitely like to learn how to do to that someday. Can it be learned from a book or do you suggest I take a class at a local Vocational Technical HS?

It depends on your preferred style of learning.  I myself would go with a class but that's because I learn, and retain what I learn, much better.

@Justin Acuna posted:

Do you know the part number for the jig?

Unfortunately, no….I bought that tool set a long time ago,….I’m sure if you contact NWSL, they can say yay or nay as to whether they still make it, or if even if they might have one around…..this is what it looks like:

Pat

@kj356 posted:

Many years ago Weaver offered its 2 rail engines with the option for AC TMCC control. I had worked on a friends 2 rail layout and built a system powered by AC and TMCC. Many of the engines we ran were Weaver AC TMCC 2 rail. But he also had a good collection of DC engines, many older. I put in some DPDT double pull double throw switches for power to the different main track loops and yards. I could switch between AC TMCC and DC power. I used a heavy duty TMCC engine control board with the DC engine outputs wired to the track leads. When we wanted to run a DC engine we flipped the switch to DC power. The AC power supply ran to a board mounted TMCC engine control and the DC output leads to the motor instead were wired to the track. Worked well! you could control AC or DC engines from the Lionel TMCC remote. Here are photos of the set up. #11 and #22 were the TMCC address #'s for running DC.

Also on a 3 rail Brass Steam engine I had I wanted it converted to 2 rail. A friend had his specialist friend that did conversions to the change. He cut each metal spoke of the main drivers on one side and glued them back together so insulated. Then changed all the other wheels.

That's a very cool setup you got there.  Just a clarification, are you able to run DC and AC powered engines at the same time with this setup?

@Justin Acuna posted:

It depends on your preferred style of learning.  I myself would go with a class but that's because I learn, and retain what I learn, much better.

Thank you for your response and thank you for starting this thread. I am always interested in knowing how others go about converting 3R to 2R. This information will also be good for anyone else considering O scale 2 rail.

"That's a very cool setup you got there.  Just a clarification, are you able to run DC and AC powered engines at the same time with this setup?"

Although not my post or layout (really cool setup @kj356 by the way) I can tell you it is possible on the same layout but not in the same electrical block. The way I understand it is his TMCC boards put out DC to a block or loop. He could have more than one DC locomotive in that block or loop (both would run at the same speed and could not be individually controlled) but not a locomotive that requires an AC input.

@Justin Acuna posted:

I'm currently in 3RS, but recently I've been thinking about moving over to 2 rail.  As part of this train of thought, I went thru the 2-Rail Scale Forum, looking for information on converting steam and diesel locomotives and lighted/ sound equipped rolling stock (yes, I know it'd be easier to sell what I've got and buy pure 2 rail engines, but I have a personal preference for TMCC/Legacy).  Here's what's still a bit of a grey area for me:

1) How are the pickups fabricated and mounted.

2) Can 2 rail lighted rolling stock run on 2 rail AC-powered track.  If not, what would have to be done?

--As an aside, I can make a separate thread that contains all the pages on converting 3 rail stuff to 2 rail if that's something that'd interest people--

Thanks.

On the steam locomotive side, your best bet is to sell off 3 rail and buy into 2 rail.

The big issue in steam engines is the wider width of the valve gear to accomodate the wider flange wheels of the loco. There would be too much shimming if adding two rail wheels and insulators plus you will not get that "finescale look" as ome does with a factory made 2 rail steam engine.

There is a lot more 2 rail out there than 3 rail so why bother the conversion unless its a hard to get item.

Hi!

It's always good to see a 3-railer convert :-) I do all the work on the Sherline. I love the "NWSL The Quarterer III", a great tool. Proto:48 is my thing, all and everything has to be machined. I personally would not convert 3-rail because it's not really worth the effort. Exceptions are super rare locomotives or such not being made in 2-rail.

Sarah

@prrhorseshoecurve posted:

On the steam locomotive side, your best bet is to sell off 3 rail and buy into 2 rail.

The big issue in steam engines is the wider width of the valve gear to accomodate the wider flange wheels of the loco. There would be too much shimming if adding two rail wheels and insulators plus you will not get that "finescale look" as ome does with a factory made 2 rail steam engine.

There is a lot more 2 rail out there than 3 rail so why bother the conversion unless its a hard to get item.

I’d agree with ya about starting off with 2 rail rather than converting a bunch of common pieces, however, the motion hangers are the furthest thing from being a problem,….they can be moved inboards, or manipulated …..or even swapped around from one frame to another…..this a MTH chassis receiving Kline motion hangers on newly made cross beams…..this ain’t rocket science……😉

Pat

That's true.  I converted an MTH Hudson.  New frame, drivers, gears, cylinder block.  Old MTH rods, hanger, valve gear.

Next project is an MTH Bi-Polar.  The only 2-rail option is really flimsy brass.

I have done Lionel Hudsons and B6s, machining new tires for the tinplate drivers - but these days it is truly easier to change drivers - especially MTH, where insulation was done at the axle.

Thank you for the pictures of the NWSL QUARTERER III, Sarah.  I am surprised and glad to hear that you one can do adequate driver machining with a Sherline lathe. I was under the impression that one needed some huge floor standing unit like I used in college physics lab; it was probably a Southbend. Which size lathe from Sherline do you use? Thank you.

She is a magician.  I cannot cut driver tires on anything smaller than a 9" South Bend, and prefer the 11" Sheldon.  But maybe Leadloy is more forgiving of a less robust machine.  I use cast iron pipe.

Sarah also does closer work than I ever could.  Proto-48 is not for sissies - it requires accuracy!

She is indeed talented, I can’t do it on my 7” and have to go out to the big shop to use the South Bend,……I’d like to know where to get Leadloy, I’ve used black iron as it’s all I can get my hands on,….my metal supplier knows what Leadloy is, but he can’t get his hands on it……she does AMAZING work to be churning out perfection like she does on a Sherline…….

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

She is indeed talented, I can’t do it on my 7” and have to go out to the big shop to use the South Bend,……I’d like to know where to get Leadloy, I’ve used black iron as it’s all I can get my hands on,….my metal supplier knows what Leadloy is, but he can’t get his hands on it……she does AMAZING work to be churning out perfection like she does on a Sherline…….

Pat

Pat and Bob thanks for elaborating on this topic. Leadloy steel seems to be one of the essential ingredients to make steel tires on the Sherline.

This was my first attempt at insulating wheels as I had an old Scalecraft K4 with loose rims on the insulated side. I had some PVC pipe about the right size so I used that to make some sleeves and then turned their od down after putting them on the center.  Worked pretty good.  Ihave since purchased some of the paper product Joe and Bob suggested  and will try that ont he next wheels I mess with. 

This is a good easy machining steel if you get it in a size large enough to make what you need.

I also was fortunate to have a medium sized older lathe.  I have an old Rockwell 11" on a 48" flame hardened bed so it is decent, but it is belt drive so it does cause some annoyance from time to time lol.  I've never had the opportunity to use a Sherline, did have a Smitty 3 in 1 for a short while but sold it.  Probably should have kept it so I could at least do a little milling that can't be set up on my Rockwell but at the time I thought I would run into a cheap Bridgeport.  I guess I have found a few cheap ones, but **** they are a little heavy to go stuffing ina normal garage lol.

On the DC/TMCC AC circuit board that I posted. I had 5 amp breakers on it and at the time many years ago the layout was in a massive room. We had 2 main lines around the rooms and then some main yard tracks. You could run as many trains as the 5 amp circuit could handle. So one remote could be running say 2 trains with TMCC AC on the outside loop  and another controller could be running 2 DC trains on the inside loop or yard tracks etc.

It was a good way to do it at the time as between the few of us involved in working on the layout and running some of us had Weaver 2 rail AC TMCC engines and some DC engines. Worked well.  Could run both with the remote.

I do like the MTH diesel engines now in Premier  many of them can be changed from 3 to 2 rail or reverse. If you are able to find a 2 rail version  though they normally have the fixed pilot. I have found it useful to buy used MTH engines then custom paint them to whatever road name I want and swap in the 2 rail wheels.

@Sarah posted:

Hi!

It's always good to see a 3-railer convert :-) I do all the work on the Sherline. I love the "NWSL The Quarterer III", a great tool. Proto:48 is my thing, all and everything has to be machined. I personally would not convert 3-rail because it's not really worth the effort. Exceptions are super rare locomotives or such not being made in 2-rail.

Sarah

Thanks for your reply!  I'm a big fan of your UP 9000.

@bob2 posted:

That's true.  I converted an MTH Hudson.  New frame, drivers, gears, cylinder block.  Old MTH rods, hanger, valve gear.

Next project is an MTH Bi-Polar.  The only 2-rail option is really flimsy brass.

I have done Lionel Hudsons and B6s, machining new tires for the tinplate drivers - but these days it is truly easier to change drivers - especially MTH, where insulation was done at the axle.

If only Lionel did the same.

@Hudson J1e posted:

Thank you for your response and thank you for starting this thread. I am always interested in knowing how others go about converting 3R to 2R. This information will also be good for anyone else considering O scale 2 rail.

The 2RS part of the forum has quite a bit of info, but it's just spread out in the 250+ threads (ask me how I know).  With the exception of a few threads on converting nonlighted rolling stock, which I didn't read just because it started getting too repetitive to read an article that was almost identical to a bunch of other threads.  I have all of them saved on my desktop if you'd like to give them a read.

@kj356 posted:

On the DC/TMCC AC circuit board that I posted. I had 5 amp breakers on it and at the time many years ago the layout was in a massive room. We had 2 main lines around the rooms and then some main yard tracks. You could run as many trains as the 5 amp circuit could handle. So one remote could be running say 2 trains with TMCC AC on the outside loop  and another controller could be running 2 DC trains on the inside loop or yard tracks etc.

It was a good way to do it at the time as between the few of us involved in working on the layout and running some of us had Weaver 2 rail AC TMCC engines and some DC engines. Worked well.  Could run both with the remote.

I do like the MTH diesel engines now in Premier  many of them can be changed from 3 to 2 rail or reverse. If you are able to find a 2 rail version  though they normally have the fixed pilot. I have found it useful to buy used MTH engines then custom paint them to whatever road name I want and swap in the 2 rail wheels.

That's an awesome setup.

@Dennis Holler posted:

This was my first attempt at insulating wheels as I had an old Scalecraft K4 with loose rims on the insulated side. I had some PVC pipe about the right size so I used that to make some sleeves and then turned their od down after putting them on the center.  Worked pretty good.  Ihave since purchased some of the paper product Joe and Bob suggested  and will try that ont he next wheels I mess with. 

This is a good easy machining steel if you get it in a size large enough to make what you need.

I also was fortunate to have a medium sized older lathe.  I have an old Rockwell 11" on a 48" flame hardened bed so it is decent, but it is belt drive so it does cause some annoyance from time to time lol.  I've never had the opportunity to use a Sherline, did have a Smitty 3 in 1 for a short while but sold it.  Probably should have kept it so I could at least do a little milling that can't be set up on my Rockwell but at the time I thought I would run into a cheap Bridgeport.  I guess I have found a few cheap ones, but **** they are a little heavy to go stuffing ina normal garage lol.

Interesting material.  When I was looking around, all I found was Leadloy.

@swrr posted:

Pat and Bob thanks for elaborating on this topic. Leadloy steel seems to be one of the essential ingredients to make steel tires on the Sherline.

Ledloy is just 12L14.  Search 12L14 at Onlinemetals.com and SpeedyMetals.com.  They both stock it.

AISI 12L14 is a Standard Resulfurized and Rephosphorized grade Carbon Steel. It is a free machining steel and is commonly called AISI 12L14 Lead Steel and may be referred to by the trade name Ledloy™. Lead has been added to the chemical composition to provide an improved level of machinability.

Scott

Hi there,

This thread is pretty inspiring. I have greatly admired people who do this work and I want to learn. I think Joe F. did some seminars at conventions years ago so maybe he has some type of instructional info for this.

For insulation I use the paper that comes in junkmail.  It is usually a bit thicker than plain old paper, and has fibers, which absorb Loctite.  I think it ranges from .003-.007 thick, which saves me from having to be a precision machinist.

If the insulation fails on an older 2-rail driver, don't machine anything.  Gently heat until you can get the tire off, then use my paper trick, finger pressure, and shaft Loctite.  Half- hour of work, 24 hrs for the adhesive to cure.

@bob2 posted:

For insulation I use the paper that comes in junkmail.  It is usually a bit thicker than plain old paper, and has fibers, which absorb Loctite.  I think it ranges from .003-.007 thick, which saves me from having to be a precision machinist.

If the insulation fails on an older 2-rail driver, don't machine anything.  Gently heat until you can get the tire off, then use my paper trick, finger pressure, and shaft Loctite.  Half- hour of work, 24 hrs for the adhesive to cure.

Bob, this insulation technique is similar to what Joe Foehrkolb did except he used fish paper.  His PowerPoint presentations for 3 to 2 rail conversion are still available online.  Lots of great info. Just google this topic: Joe Foehrkolb PowerPoint.

Joe and I corresponded.  Joe did good work - he and I used vastly different techniques.  I have no idea what advantage fish paper yields, but it held well enough for him to do finish machining with the tire mounted.  I could not do that except for light polishing or file forming, since the heat would expand the tire, releasing it from the insulation.

I have found that iron makes much better tires than leadloy - it seems to "grip the rail."

Fish paper is what I bought after both your and Joe's responses a few years ago.  Will give it a go when I get off my butt and do some work lol I've started pulling one of my SC Mountains apart.  When I got it, the insulated driver rims were more or less gone as the loco had been stored poorly and they had rusted off.  Luckily the centers are still good so will have to make new rims for that side and insulate them.

Just to add some interest, here  is a ten-wheeler with my tires on what I think were Max Grey blind drivers.  Harold Peters gave me enough of these square counterweight drivers to do this project, but every single one was blind!  Cut the old tires off, machined new ones - one side is press fit, the other of course Loctite -impregnated paper.  Ignore the corrosion and dust; when I am ready I have access to a capable bead blast cabinet.

Fish paper has high insulation properties as well as fairly precise thickness to it.  I use it all the time near high voltage components as an arc shield in my vacuum tube audio amps.  It also has archival properties unlike ordinary paper that is high in acid.  Eventually the acid in ordinary paper disintegrates the paper.  One can see this in old papers turning a yellowish brown.

My other iPad did not show those interesting SC mechanisms.  We are currently looking for an ATSF Mike mech in any condition.  Even broken drivers is ok.

@Dennis Holler posted:

Fish paper is what I bought after both your and Joe's responses a few years ago.  Will give it a go when I get off my butt and do some work lol I've started pulling one of my SC Mountains apart.  When I got it, the insulated driver rims were more or less gone as the loco had been stored poorly and they had rusted off.  Luckily the centers are still good so will have to make new rims for that side and insulate them.

Dennis, you sure like em’ crusty….what did you ever do with the Commodore Swamperbilt?….🤣🤣🤣

Pat

@bob2 posted:

For insulation I use the paper that comes in junkmail.  It is usually a bit thicker than plain old paper, and has fibers, which absorb Loctite.  I think it ranges from .003-.007 thick, which saves me from having to be a precision machinist.

If the insulation fails on an older 2-rail driver, don't machine anything.  Gently heat until you can get the tire off, then use my paper trick, finger pressure, and shaft Loctite.  Half- hour of work, 24 hrs for the adhesive to cure.

Thanks for that advice.

@christopher N&W posted:

Hi there,

This thread is pretty inspiring. I have greatly admired people who do this work and I want to learn. I think Joe F. did some seminars at conventions years ago so maybe he has some type of instructional info for this.

I did find these on the forum about a month ago.

@bob2 posted:

. . .

I have found that iron makes much better tires than leadloy - it seems to "grip the rail."

Funny you mentioned that. Back when I returned to the hobby, Williams used sintered iron driving wheels on their diesel power trucks (no traction tires) and I was amazed how well they pulled. It took a heavy load to get them to slip. I don't know what prompted the switch to traction tires. I got tired of my diesels throwing traction tires and started "testing" scale-wheel MTH offerings in 2009. I've never looked back.

Justin, Thanks. Some cool stuff there.

And thanks guys, I tried to figure out the Powerpoint file but have to go back to it. It looks like it might have moved from an original url.

Pat still have it haven't done anything to it in a while, need to go find it again lol.

@harmonyards posted:

I’d agree with ya about starting off with 2 rail rather than converting a bunch of common pieces, however, the motion hangers are the furthest thing from being a problem,….they can be moved inboards, or manipulated …..or even swapped around from one frame to another…..this a MTH chassis receiving Kline motion hangers on newly made cross beams…..this ain’t rocket science……😉

Pat

Been meaning to ask this for a few days but life has kept me busy.  How would one go about readjusting the drive gear? I hadn't thought of the extra space created by replacing Hi-rail wheels with scale wheels.

Washers?

Yes, It was mentioned ( further up ) that there would be a difference in locomotive frame width between 3 rail and 2 rail, but most frames Ive worked with are around one inch wide. So as Bob is saying the rest is washers.   cTr....( Choose the Right ) This was a Sunset 3 Rail model, has since been lowered ( for two rail ) at the cylinders as this is to high and raised in three rail models for clearance purposes. The reason Ive embarked on conversions is that 3 rail models are more readily available and at a lower price than 2 rail models. I live in Australia so the difference in price, after taking into account the exchange rate, and sales tax, adds up to a lot of $$$$$$.

@Stephen Bloy posted:

Yes, It was mentioned ( further up ) that there would be a difference in locomotive frame width between 3 rail and 2 rail, but most frames Ive worked with are around one inch wide. So as Bob is saying the rest is washers.   cTr....( Choose the Right ) This was a Sunset 3 Rail model, has since been lowered ( for two rail ) at the cylinders as this is to high and raised in three rail models for clearance purposes. The reason Ive embarked on conversions is that 3 rail models are more readily available and at a lower price than 2 rail models. I live in Australia so the difference in price, after taking into account the exchange rate, and sales tax, adds up to a lot of $$$$$$.

For that model, how much did the washers need to be adjusted?

Its really about side play or lateral movement. The first model that I 2 railed was a Williams brass NYC Hudson ( the not so detailed one ) I replaced the drivers with worn out Westside drivers that a friend had available, I had to turn new tyres and fit them and I turned new axles too ( probably not necessary ). I feel that this model is a little tight. The driver castings vary and frames and bearings vary a little, so exact washer thickness would also vary.     cTr....( Choose the Right )