5 volt stop from going bad

The easiest way is to look at the engine's battery charging jack.

If it's round with one pin in it, or if there is no jack at all, it's a 5 volt board.

If it's rectangular with 2 pins in it, it's a 3 volt board.

This and a whole lot more is all in MTH’s “The DCS O Gauge Companion 2nd Edition", available for purchase as an eBook or a printed book at MTH's web store!

I have 1 engine that's a 5 volt board its a older engine and run it some not too much and see every one say how the 5 volt boards will go bad. Is there something I can do to keep this from going bad.

Nothing you can do, but ensure a good battery.  Plenty of 5V boards run fine for a long time.  Others go on short notice.  So I would not worry about it.   G

I have a 5 volt board that is sick. It had a BCR in it and now I'm hearing from the gurus that the BCR's are affecting these boards. My own suspicion is that the charging circuits get weak or fail and then things go downhill. Anyone like to comment on this? By the way, I have a bunch of these 5 volt engines with BCR's in them.

I have a old Premier PRR Sharknose AB unit with 278 hours on it...still runs and sounds great.I recently picked up a barely used Railking CNJ F3 ABA with 2 hours run time on it and it croaked with 6.5 hours on it...you cant figure these things so don't even try.

GHD, what do you mean by "sick?"  Could be something else.

All of mine that failed, save one, did so with a sudden dead short.  The other would, about once a month, take off at full speed upon application of power, which a reset would cure for another month?

SOUNDS LIKE THE MAKING OF DUMMY UNITS TO ME.

I like the old 5 volt boards, We haven't lost an engine yet, some go back before the dcs remote and tiu were available(2002?)  and we were running them with a TPC and cab-1. These were strictly PS-2  3 rail  engines,( No DCC or 2 /3 rail) Yes the batteries have been changed.

Here's the story. Gave my camelback engine, which was working fine to my knowledge, to my local teck to add some marker lights. When he got it, he found that turning on the smoke unit killed the engine, so to speak. He's been talking with Marty and George to try to figure out what is going on and if the board can be salvaged. The ultimate fix for me here may be an upgrade board. I note that George keeps recommending keeping a fresh battery in these 5 volt boards. I'm trying to understand why. 

This is a bummer.  I didn’t know that 5V boards were problematic.  I’ve got three that I really would hate to lose.  They are about 14-15 years old and running fine at present.  I just put a BCR in one of them.  Is a BCR really an issue with 5V boards?   I do have a dummy that was 3V and had both boards go bad, but I’m thinking it was a lemon.

He recommends that for a very good reason!  The old 5V white (or silver) batteries are long past their expiration date, and most are dead when I take them out.  Whenever I get a 5V repair, if I see a white/silver battery, it hits the trash first!

John are you installing those batteries from "###y" that you recommended earlier?

And why a battery and not a BCR?

Any NiMh battery with 7 cells will be far better than the old dead ones.  I've found several that appeared to be pretty much a total short in dead locomotives.  I can't say if that contributed to the demise, but it's certainly possible.

A BCR costs about five times what the NiMh battery costs, ROI is with the battery for 5V boards IMO.

Did he ever isolate the heat element from the fan when testing.  A bad smoke fan motor can do it.  So replacing that is an easy $6 fix.  I believe it was doing it in the board tester too which means the board is the issue.

I recommended changing the fan motor fets or heater fet after the isolation test.

I don't think we really have any conclusive failure analysis data on these boards.  Also there are so many revisions to that board.  G, H, I, K and even an L I think, let alone mods between revisions.

What I was told is that several of the circuits on that board where operated near design limits.  Maybe a 1 amp diode that had to source .8 or.9 amps continuous.

As I stated earlier some do fine and others die for no apparent reason.

Same goes with BCR versus Battery.  I know of nothing conclusively, and some swear by them, others have stated they were told the charging circuit can't handle them. 

You probably can make some assumptions based on how a BCR behaves versus a Battery, but does it lead to failures?

Would a shorted or very dead battery put an undo load on a PS-2 board.  I think I would vote yes.  Does it push it over the limit and break it?  Maybe sometimes.  G

Thanks George. I know it's the nature of the beast---electronics. Spoken by an ME. Wouldn't it be nice if MTH would give us a price break on the upgrade boards to save these old 5 volt systems? Wishful thinking I guess. Thanks to you teck folks for keeping us running.

I'm glad I noticed this thread.  I'm getting bits and pieces of the PS2 5v board controversy.  If I own 5v PS2 engines older than 5 years, then I should replace the OEM battery with a NiMh battery with 7 cells, correct?

Now can someone clarify:

• Is there any advantage or disadvantages with using a BCR over a 7 cell NiMh battery (other than the BCR costing 5x's as much)?
• If replacing the OEM battery with a NiMh, will the NiMh need replaced subsequently every 5 years?
• Is there proven evidence that it is unwise to use a BCR?
• If you do use a BCR, how long to they generally last?

Thanks,

Rich

5V engines would be about 10 years or more old, so for SURE any of them that have the original battery should have it replaced!

The NiMh should last at least five years, and probably longer.  I don't know of any "proven" evidence that it's unwise to use a BCR.  A BCR should last longer than you will.

Thanks GRJ

Rich

Wouldn't it be nice if MTH would give us a price break on the upgrade boards to save these old 5 volt systems?

MTH already discounts the upgrade kit quite a bit over the price of the individual parts.

Barry, I understand there are upgrade kits that would apply to my situation and there are steam upgrade kits that the key tech's have for testing. The board kits are available now and the steam upgrade kits later. Is this correct? If not, would you please elaborate?

The board kits are available now and the steam upgrade kits later. Is this correct? If not, would you please elaborate?

There are no "board kits" and Upgrade Kits have been available of several years. They come as either diesel or steam kits.

Thanks Barry. I guess I got carried away here thinking PS 3 boards/kits. Apparently there is still a supply of PS 2 kits available. I think I've got it now.

The "DCS" Upgrade Kit has either a PS2 or PS3 board, depending upon what when in the transition one purchases a kit. Initially, steam kits were converted to PS3. Diesel kits will follow.

 I understand PS2 upgrade kits for steamers are no longer available from MTH.

Wouldn't it be nice if MTH would give us a price break on the upgrade boards to save these old 5 volt systems?

MTH already discounts the upgrade kit quite a bit over the price of the individual parts

Unfortunately, MTH does not make available to the hoi polloi, but only to techs, the board that is designed to "easily" replace a 5-volt board.  Changing a 5-volt system to a 3-volt system with an upgrade kit can be a little more complicated.

Robert,

MTH does not make available to the hoi polloi, but only to techs, the board that is designed to "easily" replace a 5-volt board.

I thought that's the board that's in the PS3 Steam Upgrade Kit.

Unless something has changed, Barry, I through that the PS3/2 kit had connectors designed for the 5-volt harness, and the upgrade kit anyone can buy does not.

Robert,

My response to you was my understanding, however, one of the guys who actually has the upgrade kit should be able to say for sure.

By any chance, have the instruction manuals for the upgrade kits been posted on line yet?  The wiring diagrams, if they're like those in the PS2 manuals, will tell a lot.

The wiring harness is the same as in the PS2 kits.  The new stacker board kit has 3V PS2 connectors on it.  They can be replaced with the 5V connectors with a little careful prying.  There are some photos of it floating around here.

Dave

A little heat on the header plastic body helps remove them from the pins much easier than prying them cold.

PS-32 Upgrade kits have 3V connectors to go with the 3V harness.  There is a PS-32 with 5V connectors sold as the repair board for PS-2 5V.  The bottom board (PS-3 stacker) is the same for both.  The top board is a separate order part $25 MSRP I believe.  So you might be able to order that if you did not want to pry off connectors.

Otherwise everything else is the same, and the wiring harness are the same as PS-2 3V harnesses.  So pinout is the same.

The separate sale board issue is about Warranty.  With an ASC you get one, without the training background anyone purchasing one and blowing it during install would expect a warranty.  I think you could understand why MTH would be hesitant to sell replacement boards like that.  Though I am sure some would argue.  G

George,

Though I am sure some would argue. 

LOL!!  

I love the: 'I am an electrician, engineer, programmer etc.  I know what I am doing' quotes from some.(after the boards are destroyed)  Most have no business getting inside their trains.

David,

Most have no business getting inside their trains.

Absolutely - I couldn't agree more!!

When I look at MTH trains with 5 volt boards in them, I tend to keep on walking, unless I have to have it and its at a price I can afford to replace the boards.

Most have no business getting inside their trains.

Absolutely - I couldn't agree more!!

The statement is not incorrect.  But I do note that on the forum, when there is a problem, the fist advice is often to remove the shell and check the wiring or battery, which is the correct advice.  I also note that many posts describing a problem commence:  "I took my DCS loco to my LHS tech and since then...."

Robert,

 the fist advice is often to remove the shell and check the wiring or battery, which is the correct advice.

I agree that is often the first advice provided, however, I do not agree that it's always, or even often, correct.

IMO, the list of things to initially do is:

• Check that tracks have power
• Verify operation of the DCS components, i.e., TIU, remote and AIU
• Attempt an engine feature reset
• Verify that the DCS signal is on for all tracks
• See if the problem occurs with a different engine
• Perform a DCS signal test with the problem engine and a known, working engine
• Test the battery in the prescribed manner, i.e., by turning off track power and listening for how long sounds persist.

The order of the above isn't particularly critical and other non-invasive things may also be attempted.

Regardless, I'm sure you "get" the idea.

Only when all else fails should a someone who doesn't have a lot of experience inside the engine attempt to open the engine and poke around inside.