This is the reference that was used which was produced by the ATSF Historical Society.
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GG1 4877 posted:They are blind on the center wheels because it wouldn't turn on an 072 curve otherwise. I know from experience in changing out blind drivers on scale 6 axle locomotives.
It's a little disappointing to see all the hysterics on a model that hasn't even shipped yet. It is wonderful model and by far is the best diesel release I've seen to date. It is heavy, robust, and looks a looks like a real E8. No other model I've seen in plastic O has the true feel of an E8 quite like this one.
Are the center axle wheels on the 2 rail models also flangeless?
ecd15 posted:GG1 4877 posted:They are blind on the center wheels because it wouldn't turn on an 072 curve otherwise. I know from experience in changing out blind drivers on scale 6 axle locomotives.
It's a little disappointing to see all the hysterics on a model that hasn't even shipped yet. It is wonderful model and by far is the best diesel release I've seen to date. It is heavy, robust, and looks a looks like a real E8. No other model I've seen in plastic O has the true feel of an E8 quite like this one.
Are the center axle wheels on the 2 rail models also flangeless?
I have not seen a 2 rail version in person, but all axles are supposed to have flanges, just like the E7. They are 54" radius minimum.
GG1 4877 posted:This is the reference that was used which was produced by the ATSF Historical Society.
Then why do the grabs appear red in the photo? Are they just that dirty?
Rusty
They are dirty in this late photo. However, red is also correct. I have photos of no grab irons, red grab irons, and yellow grab irons. If you click on the photo, the larger version shows the yellow much more clearly.
They are yellow across the straight portion, that is the same photo I posted earlier. Only the straight portion, not the entire grab iron or the bolt detail. That is visible in that particular photo.
Laidoffsick posted:They are yellow across the straight portion, that is the same photo I posted earlier. Only the straight portion, not the entire grab iron or the bolt detail. That is visible in that particular photo.
That is the 1% I was referring to.
So once again its a combination of early and late eras. With nose grabs the fuel tank skirts should NOT be there, both later modifications. Missing the step behind the pilot that goes with those nose grabs.
Either era the warbonnet stripe should be under the stainless grill, just like the F7s. Not on top of the stainless grill.
The Mars light glued in the wrong direction...
With hundreds of photos available.... I just don't get it.
GG1 4877 posted:They are dirty in this late photo. However, red is also correct. I have photos of no grab irons, red grab irons, and yellow grab irons. If you click on the photo, the larger version shows the yellow much more clearly.
As long as there are photo's of all three conditions, then this might be a case for going with the esthetics of red grabs or no grabs. The yellow grabs on the sample certainly seem to overpower the nose and detract from the model.
Rusty
See my "Sunset Burlington E8A Prototype First Look - Video Added" post over on the 2 rail forum - on evaluating Scott's engineering model -- to get back to some of the positives. See photos and a video.
I have no beef with those of you above who push Scott to attain better and better model fidelity. Positive, constructive criticism and factual inputs are a good thing. And the fact that Scott listens is a really good thing.
I just hope we will keep the following in mind, too. The engineering prototype had excellent, smooth, quiet motor control throughout the speed range operating under DCC or DC control. LED lighting. QSI Q3 (latest and best sounding and operating) decoder. Two enclosed speakers well placed to produce a full spectrum big sound with good low frequency response. The best internal wiring of any diesel I've ever owned -- clean, neat one big connector for lights and one small connector for reed reset relay -- to remove the body shell. Horizontal ball bearing drive with metal universal joints. On two rail models all axles/wheelsets driven and with flanges.
I own and operate Sunset E7's, FT's and F7's. Based on my evaluation of the engineering prototype the E8 it is the best yet from a mechanical, lighting and sound standpoint. Assuming the production models operate as well as the Prototype this will be a seriously good running and sounding and reliable model.
I have not received any manner of compensation from Scott. Just the opportunity to play around with his Prototype which was very enjoyable.
Laidoffsick posted:So once again its a combination of early and late eras. With nose grabs the fuel tank skirts should NOT be there, both later modifications. Missing the step behind the pilot that goes with those nose grabs.
Either era the warbonnet stripe should be under the stainless grill, just like the F7s. Not on top of the stainless grill.
The Mars light glued in the wrong direction...
With hundreds of photos available.... I just don't get it.
+1.
BH
Jonathan if it were ONLY 1%, it wouldn't be a problem.
I give up with you guys. A true modeler would fix it and move on. A forest through the trees issue.
At $600 I shouldn't have to "FIX" squat!
Improve, upgrade, sure....no problem, but not fix/correct errors on something marketed as road specific details.
Here are some Pics' NO YELLOW Grabs. and NO OVERSIZED Grab at the bend.
Laidoffsick posted:At $600 I shouldn't have to "FIX" squat!
Improve, upgrade, sure....no problem, but not fix/correct errors on something marketed as road specific details.
I don't understand the anger over this since you cancelled your order anyway.
SantaFeJim posted:Here are some Pics' NO YELLOW Grabs. and NO OVERSIZED Grab at the bend.
Again, for the second time. This came out of a publication prepared directly by the ATSF historical society.
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Oh Im not angry, and yes I did cancel due to circumstances beyond my control. I would have sent them back after seeing them anyway so I'm glad at this point I did cancel. There's no excuse for it, and obviously others have noticed it as well.
Johnathan,
First I want to say I did see the model close up at York (photo below) and it is very well done and you and Scott have done a nice job. I'll admit the yellow handrails did not stand out at first because I was too busy admiring the "99%" that looked great. But looking at the pictures above the handrails are the first thing you notice and the first reaction is "what is that?". Like Rusty said it overpowers the front and detracts from the model. I'm not necessarily complaining or angry, but I am disappointed, and wondering why would we want to be detracted from the classic look of the santa fe paint scheme which is what I was expecting. It looks "99%" correct for the 1% of all the photos I've ever seen that actually have those handrails. The point is why not model the version that is the most popular? I respect others concerns about small errors but they don't bother me since they don't jump out at me like this "correct" set of yellow handrails. Your right, as a modeler I could easily paint them red and maybe even remove them, but the like LaidoffSick said we should not have too especially since I've dropped (already paid) almost $2k for the ABA. If given the choice I would rather not have had them. I suspect painting them red will eliminate the problem and the focus can go back to the beautifully done model.
Not trying to slam you guys, just some honest feedback.
Rich
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Rich Battista posted:Johnathan,
First I want to say I did see the model close up at York (photo below) and it is very well done and you and Scott have done a nice job. I'll admit the yellow handrails did not stand out at first because I was too busy admiring the "99%" that looked great. But looking at the pictures above the handrails are the first thing you notice and the first reaction is "what is that?". Like Rusty said it overpowers the front and detracts from the model. I'm not necessarily complaining or angry, but I am disappointed, and wondering why would we want to be detracted from the classic look of the santa fe paint scheme which is what I was expecting. It looks "99%" correct for the 1% of all the photos I've ever seen that actually have those handrails. The point is why not model the version that is the most popular? I respect others concerns about small errors but they don't bother me since they don't jump out at me like this "correct" set of yellow handrails. Your right, as a modeler I could easily paint them red and maybe even remove them, but the like LaidoffSick said we should not have too especially since I've dropped (already paid) almost $2k for the ABA. If given the choice I would rather not have had them. I suspect painting them red will eliminate the problem and the focus can go back to the beautifully done model.
Not trying to slam you guys, just some honest feedback.
Rich
Rich,
Honest feedback is always welcome and I appreciate the comments. I overreacted to commentary that appears to be intentionally meant to just discredit the model completely. The reality of the situation is that I relied on the data I had when the project was designed, which so far has been a very reliable source of information. It is a painting and lettering guide for every class of Santa Fe diesel and published by the ATSF Railway Historical and Modeling Society. Yes, I confused the era's a bit. That is my mistake.
Normally I review the models with the decal samples prior to production and in this case I was able to review most of them. Unfortunately Santa Fe was not one of them for whatever reason. I agree now that, red would have been the wiser choice. Scott and I discussed the issue, however by the time we both saw the model for this version, all of the models had been completed and as I understand it in the container. Not an excuse, but the there were 31 road names in a single run and the design matrix had a huge amount of variables to keep straight. The nice thing about the 2nd Run F7s and the Alco PA's is that the number of road names is much smaller and there has been an attention to detail beyond any prior project to date.
Scott does his best to listen to his customers and make improvements all the time so I do sometimes take the criticisms personally as a designer and consultant, especially criticism that comes out as anger or sounds petty. We are so passionate about this work and making it right. Anyone who thinks differently is seriously misinformed. Believe me, I am likely more disappointed than anyone else that this is not what some people wanted. I had to call Scott this morning to talk me out of just giving it up and focusing on the job that actually pays my bills.
Thanks for your feedback. After seeing the sample myself, I wanted a Warbonnet E8 personally as I didn't order that road name. I can't get one now as after the cancellations, they are still sold out and there is still a waiting list.
I have three CPR E8s on order and am chomping at the bit to get them. They are to arrive in LA in just a little over a week according to Mr. Mann's earlier post.
Any idea how long it will be before they are actually shipped out to customers?
I do agree that this forum is overly negative. As a result I visit significanlty less than I did at one time. I have a set of ABA warbonnets on order. This is my first 3rd Rail diesel engine. I had (and continue to have) high expectations, given the price of the engines I feel that is reasonable. Committing to spend $2,000.00 sight unseen is a leap of faith. $2K is a lot of money for me, maybe not for others.
The grab rails, regardless of their color, detract from the appearance of this engine in my opinion. When I committed to spending $2K I did not envision the engine with those grab rails so therefore they really look bad to me. Therein lies the problem of committing to a purchase sight unseen. I have a modest ability to scratchbuild and paint but I have even less a desire to do so after spending $2K.
Do we know for certain that the ATSF E units that are slated to arrive next week will have the grab rails?
I have other questions but I suppose I should email them directly to Scott Mann. I will reserve judgment and keep a positive attitude.
That's just my $.02.
kevin
GG1 4877 posted:Not an excuse, but the there were31 road names in a single run and the design matrix had a huge amount of variables to keep straight. The nice thing about the 2nd Run F7s and the Alco PA's is that the number of road names is much smaller and there has been an attention to detail beyond any prior project to date.
Perhaps Ron (or you) can expand the roster of road and/or model specific "experts" to avoid such issues as have been discussed above.
All I can say is I am glad that I didn't sink $2k into an A-B-A set of these because after seeing this I would have cancelled.
This picture reminds me of the cute little puppy that got too close to a porcupine.
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Could we please end the excoriation of Scott and Jonathan?
I posted a new topic on this. I would be grateful if those with an interest in the yellow grab irons would read it. Thanks.
Jonathan, If only it were a thankless job then you'd be much better off. The sad thing is you'll never get an ATTABOY for all the things you get right but youll get a dozen swift kicks in the nuts for any thing you get wrong. Dont take it personal, its a lot of work to do research on models and youre bound to miss some stuff. Ive kept my mouth shut as I'm not sure I can do a better job so I'm in no position to tell you how to do yours. But somehow there are always people who can do it better and moany more that need to go play trains. Here's to getting it right the next round!!!!
Pingman posted:GG1 4877 posted:Not an excuse, but the there were31 road names in a single run and the design matrix had a huge amount of variables to keep straight. The nice thing about the 2nd Run F7s and the Alco PA's is that the number of road names is much smaller and there has been an attention to detail beyond any prior project to date.
Perhaps Ron (or you) can expand the roster of road and/or model specific "experts" to avoid such issues as have been discussed above.
There are several "go to" experts that are relied upon for accurate information. However unlike the arm chair quarterback clowns who post here regularly, they are truly experts who care about a quality product over the easy cheap shot bully tactics that you see here. There are two true ATSF experts that participate in this forum and even then things fall through the cracks.
Som people live to criticize the hard work of others, while other people want to be a part of the solution. Mostly this forum has mainly the unhelpful critics which is why this forum is not a good place to seek input.
My simple response is if you aren't happy, go to another manufacturer. Even Key makes mistakes and I love their product.
What exactly qualifies anyone as an expert? None of us were there, none of us are that old? We all use the same research material.
Thanks guys, yet again OGR gets real nasty about BS with half those posting not having a dog in the fight. Unless you have bought these you have no standing and thus your points, options, etc., have no validity.
I own more than a few Sunset / 3rd rail trains, and have been happy with both the products and customer service, anything that was wrong was fixed. Unlike MTH or Lionel where new out of the box engines don't run and take six months to be repaired.
I am no expert. I do find myself filtering the posts on this forum. Some are just plain toxic while others are helpful. There are a handful of contributors that I tune into and several I literally block because there is not enough Zoloft in the world to pull me out of the doom and gloom tailspin that would be triggered by reading their rants (the sky is always falling on some people's heads).
Doug is one of the contributors I value. I don't think his comments on the E units were negative or out of bounds. I don't think he posted the pic, it was awhile back on the first page. For all the flaws of this forum, speaking as someone that has $2K on the line, I am glad it exists. If not for seeing that pic on the OGR the first time I would have seen those hideous yellow grab irons would have been when I opened up the box!
That is just my $.02...what do I know?
kevin
Gents,
PICTURE OF SF F7 at the Sacramento RR Museum. I know, F7 and E8 are different animals. But they did follow the SF Painting and Lettering rules.
As a manufacturer, or more accurately a project manager of these models, I rely on expert opinion from many different model enthusiasts, none of which have the same opinion as to what is correct or acceptable for a model of this era or that era. To guess and choose what features are important or not when building these models is huge undertaking, which Jonathan has done for my productions for 7 years or more for much less compensation than the effort has taken. No fault to Jonathan, he gave me his honest answers on 29 different road names, and followed the design of each from a detailed matrix the stretched out to 20 separate detailed items in this run. Everything from Single, Double or No Steam Generators, Freight or Passenger Pilots, 4 different nose grab configurations, and countless color configurations. We went through 2 or 3 iterations of decals at the factory to match the paint on each version, as decals change color depending on what the base color is, to the weatherization hatches on UP and Demos, to the sizes and configuration of the Dynamic brakes, Horizontal or Vertical grills, cab angle iron steps, single or double headlight, two versions of number boards. We also changed the design of the skirts to be a separate part installed with two small screws so customers can remove them if they wish. We updated the designs of the fans to be more prototypical, we made the steam generator hatch removable in 3 Rail with the battery accessible. Countless other requests from customers from previous projects were added and followed through production. We only get one shot at production, so you have to be there to catch things. There are no stages to get it right.
Even with all these configuration changes there were difficulties at the factory that required my production manager to stay at the factory for a whole month, as I did to. I wanted to see a finished sample of each road name, check it against Jonathan's drawing before I could leave China. It was one of the biggest efforts by all involved, and we are all proud of our accomplishment, and all intend to please the very customers that finance this effort.
A lot of these detail differences I never would have been able to navigate without Jonathan's constant help and guidance. SO GET OFF HIS BACK.
I am really sorry if some of you find the yellow hand rails detracting on the AT&SF E8s. They do jump out at you in the photos, but are much more pleasing in person, but I thought customers in general want lots of details to jump out at you and not fade into the background of all the busy detail on these models. You can never please everyone, and I know once our customers run these models they will notice the 1000s of hours of work that went into planning, designing and producing a project like this. They are not like anything else ever made before by us or anyone else. The ball bearings in each axle really make a big difference to performance. And over time if owners of these models wanted the handrails red, you get out your brush because they are modelers and modelers customize models to what era and features they want. The SF Red color we use matches Tru-Color Paint http://trucolorpaint.com/ (TCP-022)
Are these models "PERFECT"? No. Nothing is. If your lurking around waiting for people to make mistakes, you will have your chance with every project, I guarantee it. Look close enough and you will find your rant. Everyone makes mistakes. But in this case, I stand by Jonathan's decision and the hand rails remain yellow. If you don't like them, you can touch them up. No one is holding you hostage here.
Once an "Expert" starts to exert his opinion on a product, others customers who read but don't post, begin to focus on the "Mistake". Previously they had no idea of a detail correctness or not, and were perfectly happy until someone points out the "glaring" error. So what's the point of that? Seems like a negative for both the buying public and the manufacturer. Did I learn a lesson by getting cancellations? No, because we did our best, and you can't do more than that. Is it constructive? NO. Will we make the same mistake twice? Probably not. But even if we don't make this mistake on the next model, there will be 100 other opportunities to make different mistakes on the next project that weren't on this project. Each project has different challenges that you don't find until you start making them.
For the rest of you who appreciate what these models represent, I will continue to try to give you at least what you expect if not more.
Jonathan, don't think for a second that your contribution to this is nothing less than outstanding. THANK YOU. And stop wasting your time on the forum, we have a lot of work to do on the PAs, they are cutting the tools this month.
Cheers, now go enjoy your hobby, everyone OR ELSE. 
Scott Mann
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BTW: How many SF War Bonnet E8s did Sunset Models produce and how many are reserved?
SFWB PAINT SCHEME:
TYPE / RESERVED / PRODUCED / REMAINING
2RE8A / 21/ 21 / 1
2RE8B/ 5 / 5/ 0
3RE8A / 19 / 21 / 2
3RE8B / 13 / 15 / 2
One customers cancellation remains available in 3 Rail. ABBA or 2 X AB is available now.
The single 2 Rail A unit, I think I will keep and display in our office.
Scott Mann
It is refreshing to hear such honesty from a manufacturer/project manager. I saw the display model at York and was very impressed with it. I am on stand by for a 2 rail NYC A unit. I hope I get it.
I wish my boss would stand up for me like that
Bravo, Scott. Well said.
A lot of this just has to do with the perspective of the photos -- real life vs a model. In real life the photos are typically from ground level. And since trains are big, the photos are far away - meaning small items on them disappear to a degree. Further there are 2 sides to them -- and from what I can gather -- only one side has the irons... meaning that many photos just do not show them or show them partially. The effect again is small items go away in the view... they become less prevalent.
Then move to the model's photo-- it's an above shot and all or likely all the the irons are there in the photo... this concentrates them in the view and they become more prevalent to the viewer.
To me at least... they look fine and on at least some real ones the irons are as represented here on their model.
I appreciate Scott's repsonse. There is no way he can please everyone. In this circmustance the seller and the buyer are both taking leaps of faith. Scott took me at my word that I would buy the E units I reserved and I committed to purchase a set of engines that I had not seen (obviously, since they were not yet manufactured). This is the build to order model that is the standard for our hobby.
I do not begrudge anybody in this drama, neither Scott, nor Jonathan, nor Number 90 Tom or Doug (LOS). I really enjoy playing with these things but I just don't take them so seriously that I get upset about them. This is not the end of the world.
I would not know nor would I be disappointed if the weatherization hatch was not long enough or not high enough. I would not mind if there were or were not kick plates on the doors or if the MARS light was dead on. I personally am not knowledgable enough to make those distinctions.
In this case the grab irons do "jump out" at me. My novice eye can't help but notice them. I then compare what my eyes are seeing with the image I have in my mind for what an E8 "looks like" and there is discrpenacy that I can distinguish. Each of us do this to varying levels of scrutiny and that is what makes Scott's job impossible. We all think we know what we want our models to look like and when they don't we think it must be wrong. It is just too bad that we have to make this determination so late in the purchase. Too bad that the c.g. renderings for each model could not be shared with the customer before reservations are closed so that we could "see the finished product". That may reduce the number of people who find themselves in the position I feel I am in...do I live with an engine that my mind perceives to be "incorrect" or do I cancel my reservation.
It is apparent that some people have unrealistic expectations... There are more important things to worry about in life.
I'm amazed by the low production numbers for the Sunset ATSF E8s - about 45 A-units and 22 B-units. With numbers like that, it's remarkable that they can be produced economically at all. I own numerous Sunset models and like them - particularly my three New Haven FL-9s (which do have some small errors) and two Budd RDCs. Sunset deserves credit for being the only manufacturer to have offered these in O scale. And, the one time I needed a model repaired, Sunset fixed it promptly and at reasonable cost. I don't have any E8s on order but am looking forward to getting a New Haven PA, a Santa Fe F-7, and AMTRAK passenger cars. Considering the quality and service from Sunset models, I'm a satisfied customer - even if the models aren't perfect.
MELGAR
Melgar. Well said.
I knew posting that photograph would end up like this. I hesitated and hesitated but in the end I made a mistake. Scott was right in not posting any photographs before delivery. 90% of the people who bought them would never notice the difference unless an "expert" pointed it out.
