3rd Rail F7 Demonstrators

One of the units I imported has been spotted on Ebay.  It was stolen from the Post Office in transit.  I am going to do what the law and Ebay will allow to retrieve it for the rightful owner.  

Please take it to the full limit of the law. Would be interested to know if the carrier had anything to do with it. 

Butch

Well, if you can prove that particular unit was yours, you can recover it from whoever it winds up with, including an eBay purchaser.  A thief never obtains title, and cannot pass it on to a purchaser.

bob2 posted:

Well, if you can prove that particular unit was yours, you can recover it from whoever it winds up with, including an eBay purchaser.  A thief never obtains title, and cannot pass it on to a purchaser.

I can account for every single one of them that was made except the one that was "lost" in transit.   The one, OBTW, that the USPS has denied the claim for.

Additionally, as Scott is accepting reservations for additional Great Northern F7s I have agreed that IF, and I repeat IF, and I'll repeat again IF, more F7s are a go I will agree to supporting more Demonstrators (the coral and creme color, the blue and silver were F3s).  Right now he wants to meet the required minimum number with GN alone, which is a very tall order if you ask me.  

DaveJfr0 posted:

i did my first stroll around the 'bay in a long time and think i saw this unit still on there.  Is eBay or the USPS trying to figure out what happened or did they say tough luck?

It's still on there. Price keeps dropping as well.

I am so far beyond ticked off I need to watch my language.  The USPS maintains they legally sold the package as unclaimed freight.  They also agree they never delivered the package.  They also denied the claim because I could not provide sufficient "proof" of value.  That is the big picture.  They state they have no duty or responsibility to retrieve the property regardless of how or where it was lost or stolen while in their possession, it is too big a deal for them.  

Drilling down a bit, once you make a claim, they claim they own the property, whether or not the claim is paid and they legally can sell the property. 

You are required to make the claim no more than 60 days from the mailing date.  Why, any package which has not been claimed or delivered within 60 days for any reason they can do with as they like.  Why it was not delivered or claimed is not their problem.

Now, UPS is no better, except, I understand they destroy unclaimed freight so there is no perception of profiting from the situation.   And, in the case of another customer, Scott got the address wrong by one number, the last number, and so UPS delivered an ABBA set to a vacant lot and claim no responsibility for it's loss.  I just wonder if UPS is in the habit of delivering things to vacant lots, you know, like, drugs and guns, to recipients who intentionally give fake addresses.

The unit on ebay has gone from $1, 399. to $1,299. to $1,099 to $999, to $929.   The USPS dead mail center for the southeast is in GA so the ebay seller probably bought it from there.   I recently had two books mailed to me with tracking number.  They went from California to Greensboro, NC then instead of being sent to VA for delivery they were sent to the dead mail center in GA.   They said it was undeliverable BUT the tracking number had the correct address.  When I filed a claim the USPS employee even read the correct address to me from the tracking number.  I am still waiting for my books.

It is an election year and the USPS still gets subsidized by the federal government so complain to your congressman about the USPS selling your products for profit.

rdunniii posted:

I am so far beyond ticked off I need to watch my language.  The USPS maintains they legally sold the package as unclaimed freight.  They also agree they never delivered the package.  They also denied the claim because I could not provide sufficient "proof" of value.  That is the big picture.  They state they have no duty or responsibility to retrieve the property regardless of how or where it was lost or stolen while in their possession, it is too big a deal for them.  

Drilling down a bit, once you make a claim, they claim they own the property, whether or not the claim is paid and they legally can sell the property. 

You are required to make the claim no more than 60 days from the mailing date.  Why, any package which has not been claimed or delivered within 60 days for any reason they can do with as they like.  Why it was not delivered or claimed is not their problem.

Now, UPS is no better, except, I understand they destroy unclaimed freight so there is no perception of profiting from the situation.   And, in the case of another customer, Scott got the address wrong by one number, the last number, and so UPS delivered an ABBA set to a vacant lot and claim no responsibility for it's loss.  I just wonder if UPS is in the habit of delivering things to vacant lots, you know, like, drugs and guns, to recipients who intentionally give fake addresses.

The crux of your issue seems to be establishing the value of the claim and/or how to mediate disputes over claims when they occur. 

I had a similar issue - Brad A and I decided to trade Pacific Limited B-50-14 boxcar versions.  Impossible to establish a value, I paid $165 for mine in 1994 and now they are priceless.  WHEN you can find them they can go for well over 500 bucks.

And I VERY STUPIDLY shipped USPS and did not pay extra for insurance for this reason.

Guess what - after patiently watching the USPS tracking the car made it to the bulk mail facility in Philly and never left.  It took over two months for the car to finally show up at Brad's and it was not in the same box that I shipped it in, since I write to/from/tracking # info on each side of the box.

Dealing with the USPS was interesting.  It ranged from apathetic ("everything is done online for a claim for lost packages") to moderately helpful ("call this number, this is the postmaster for that facility and they will have someone track it down cause it's probably in an empty trailer somewhere in the back of the facility lot").

Sadly, dealing with both leaves the "little guy" little recourse in losses like this.  The USPS and UPS really don't have any reason to care about the one little lost train of ours.   They are generally good and ship lots and lots of packages with no problems.  But ultimately they both answer to only two things - in the USPS case it's losses and the employees voting power (since the USPS is generally the US's largest employer and the employees one of the largest voting blocks in the US) and in UPS case it's their bottom line and their large voting block (institutional) shareholders since they are a public company.  

Rant off -  how do you establish proper value for a "collectible" item such as a model train so that if it is lost somehow  that you can get replacement value?

Originally posted by VGN6r:

It is an election year and the USPS still gets subsidized by the federal government so complain to your congressman about the USPS selling your products for profit.

Excuse me but the USPS is a SERVICE [United States Postal SERVICE] not a government agency. It does NOT receive any monetary subsidies by the federal government. Postal Service funding is from the sales of stamps and shipping services and yes, the sale of unclaimed/claim filed damaged freight.

The only thing that congress does is set rates and legislation for the USPS.

Is this the missing unit?   The person selling this unit is in Kennesaw GA and the USPS dead mail center in in GA so he probably bought it from them............... ;-(

Is eBay or the USPS trying to figure out what happened or did they say tough luck?

So, any bounce back from eBay - reported it as someone selling a stolen item?

What about small claims court?  You might have to make a demand first, unless the PO is truly not a government agency.  The statute of limitations on the demand is very short, but the S/L on a contract is usually four years.

Good ol' Wikipedia:

Certain contracts with the government
By way of the Tucker Act, certain claims of monetary damages against the United States are exempt from sovereign immunity. These cases are heard by the United States Court of Federal Claims, or, for cases involving less than ten thousand dollars, a district court has concurrent jurisdiction.

Examples of contracts where immunity is waived include:

Debts incurred.
Salaries of government employees.
Tax refunds that have not been sent.
Commercial contracts.

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

Originally posted by VGN6r:

It is an election year and the USPS still gets subsidized by the federal government so complain to your congressman about the USPS selling your products for profit.

Excuse me but the USPS is a SERVICE [United States Postal SERVICE] not a government agency. It does NOT receive any monetary subsidies by the federal government. Postal Service funding is from the sales of stamps and shipping services and yes, the sale of unclaimed/claim filed damaged freight.

The only thing that congress does is set rates and legislation for the USPS.

Totally correct. It amazes me how many people I've met over the years that assume the USPS is funded by tax dollars. 

Believe it or not the price of stamps will go down 2 cents on I think April 19th. 

This is a sad situation. I hope it can get resolved. Any chance you could contact the media? Some news shows have that consumer advocate as part of their show. Maybe they could help? 

Yes, that is the unit.  It is the only one that is not accounted for.  My only hope at this time is that enough of the O Scale community knows about this that no one buys it.  If it is still there during the Chicago Meet I will have a sign at my table explaining this to all the attendees.  Yes, the rightful recipient has been in contact with the pawn shop that has the unit.  They told him they have a receipt from the USPS when they purchased it but will not produce it. 

Media and elected representatives are not interested so long as they followed their procedures (which they claim they did).  It's like cops killing people and not being held accountable because they say they followed their procedures.  Procedures that result in bad outcomes are bad procedures but they have no interest in doing anything about it.

I sent the USPS the invoice I got from Sunset showing how much I paid for the units and that is what they consider insufficient.

Can you file a police report on the theft and see if the police can demand a copy of the receipt/proof of purchase?

rdunniii posted:

Yes, that is the unit.  It is the only one that is not accounted for.  My only hope at this time is that enough of the O Scale community knows about this that no one buys it.  If it is still there during the Chicago Meet I will have a sign at my table explaining this to all the attendees.  Yes, the rightful recipient has been in contact with the pawn shop that has the unit.  They told him they have a receipt from the USPS when they purchased it but will not produce it. 

Media and elected representatives are not interested so long as they followed their procedures (which they claim they did).  It's like cops killing people and not being held accountable because they say they followed their procedures.  Procedures that result in bad outcomes are bad procedures but they have no interest in doing anything about it.

I sent the USPS the invoice I got from Sunset showing how much I paid for the units and that is what they consider insufficient.

 

Maybe I'm not following all of your story correctly - Was there insurance on the item originally from Sunset and then when the USPS lost the item they paid the amount that the item was insured for (the base 50 bucks) to Sunset?

Totally correct. It amazes me how many people I've met over the years that assume the USPS is funded by tax dollars.

One can assert anything.  Are we absolutely sure the Post Office is not a government entity?

All of my airplane buddies are quite convinced that no tax money goes into our city airport.  I can prove otherwise with almost trivial information.  Maybe the post office gets real estate without having to pay property taxes?

In any case, this practice (at the post office) needs to be stopped, and the only way it gets stopped is somebody must challenge it.  A challenge is probably too expensive when it involves a model train.

If nobody files suit in court, you can literally commit murder without penalty.

bob2 posted:

Totally correct. It amazes me how many people I've met over the years that assume the USPS is funded by tax dollars.

 

One can assert anything.  Are we absolutely sure the Post Office is not a government entity?

All of my airplane buddies are quite convinced that no tax money goes into our city airport.  I can prove otherwise with almost trivial information.  Maybe the post office gets real estate without having to pay property taxes?

In any case, this practice (at the post office) needs to be stopped, and the only way it gets stopped is somebody must challenge it.  A challenge is probably too expensive when it involves a model train.

If nobody files suit in court, you can literally commit murder without penalty.

The USPS is a quasi-government agency (think AMTRAK) so they operate under a whole complex scenario of rules and regs.  It is true that they receive no tax dollars but they are deep in debt... and congress exerts control over them in a multitude of ways.   Let's not turn this into a hate USPS thread since the actual issue at hand affects us all here.

One can presume that you would need a lawyer to assist since governmental agencies are generally immune to lawsuits.

And as a quasi-government agency they have a large bureaucracy in DC that does deal with fraud or consumer complaints.   I understand that the local postal clerk is limited at what he or she can do but I certainly would have worked my way up the ladder if my $500 train car would not have been delivered. 

BOB2, not only is the USPS not funded from tax dollars but since 2006 when President Bush signed the Postal Reform Act of 2006 the USPS has had to pay Congress 5.5 Billion dollars a year to pre-fund our retirees health benefits and also prohibited the USPS from providing non postal services. There are several reasons as to why the USPS is in such large debt and this is a big one but not the only one.

Rob, what you are saying is pretty much correct. As a former Customer Car Agent for the USPS I can tell you that there are three levels of complaints. First you have the Customer Care Agent who's job is to forward the complaint to a Supervisor who is supposed to resolve it. I can't tell you how many people called and said their issue was not only never resolved by a Supervisor but often they were never even contacted by a Supervisor. Then you would escalate your complaint to the Consumer Affairs Division. If that doesn't work then you would escalate your complaint to (if I remember correctly) what is called the Consumer Advocate Office in DC. I don't know how large or small they are. I believe they can only be contacted by letter. Unless something is local to a Post Office the local clerk really can't do anything when it comes to problems like this.

Anyway back to the subject at hand. From what I recall as a Customer Care Agent is that any package deemed undeliverable is supposed to be returned to sender unless both addresses are unreadable for whatever reason then in that case the package would be sent to the Dead Letter Office in Georgia which is now called the Mail Recovery Center. Again if I remember correctly once the package gets to the MRC it is opened and they are supposed to see if there is any paperwork inside the package that will tell them where the package was supposed to go. If there is no paperwork, then they determine the worth of the item. If it is determined to be worth more than $25 it is kept and I think the owner has 30 or 60 days to claim it. If it is determined to be less then $25 it is destroyed. I really felt bad for people who lost stuff that was irreplaceable like family air looms. Just like the Office in DC the MRC can only be contacted by letter mail and not by phone nor email. Apparently after 60 days or whatever the time frame is they sell it which is something I didn't know. This is how the MRC is supposed to work to the best of my memory. I have tried to forget working in customer service as it was the worst job I ever had in my life. 

RDUNNIII, I'm just curious did you try to contact the MRC? It's a shame you couldn't have gotten it back through them. I am with you in that I hope no one buys it. There aren't all that many 2 railers so I hope this is one time our small numbers can help out. Best of luck.