3rd RAIL F7 MODIFICATIONS

Today, I started the mods on my atsf freights. The two rail pilot supplied was silver so I had to paint it. I've gone for a more satin black look and am painting the two rail steps and all underbody detail the same. Their are holes drilled for the 2 rail steps so installation will be easy. However, here is the rub, the 3 rail steps are pinned to the truck side frames and take some time getting off and leave a couple of holes. Tried the swap of the vent windows into the correct position and it works fine. Requires some cleaning up of the glue and I scraped some yellow off the sill. Oh well. One other thing I have  cut off most of the light in the cab  with a paint pen in hopes it dims the light. should be able to reveal the completed units tomorrow or the next day.

RonH

The flat satin looks so much better than the shiny stock part

Looks great, Ron. 

Man you got lucky I guess. None of mine had the holes drilled for the steps. Thats why I have to take them completely apart to make room for drilling/tapping 4 small holes in each frame. Not sure why they were not consistent here?????

LOS, did you post a video of these yet?

Ron - the vent window change is a big improvement - how did you go about it?

Ed Rappe

Those who have 2 rail Sunset E7's, FL9's, FP7's, FT's, and now F7's  can alter/adjust virtually all the lighting features by changing DCC Configuration Variable (CV) settings in the on board QSI Titan Magnum decoder.  Each light feature output has its own intensity setting as well as control over when (or if) the lights go on and off.  In the case of cab lights you can set how long you want them to stay on after the train starts moving.  Making CV changes to QSI decoders is easiest done using their QSI Programmer connected to a PC, but it also can be done with most DCC systems.  QSI lighting and sound features are controlled by an array of indexed CV's that provide a lot of programming options - but are tricky to set.  The lights can be changed for two rail DC operations but you'll need a friend or dealer that has DCC to change the indexed CV's - once changed they carry over when operating in either mode.  For complete coverage of programming QSI Titan decoders see the page QSI DCC Ref. Manual (Version 5.2.0 Aug 2015) on the QSI Solutions web site.  It has over 500 pages but  using the index you can go directly to the feature you are interested in changing. 

How I got out the vent windows.

First I tried to press them out, but was afraid I would scratch them. Then I noticed a slight gap between the vent window and the side cab window. Put a small flat thin screwdriver blade in there and the vent window levered right out.

Hope this helps.

Ron H

Norm Charbonneau posted:

LOS, did you post a video of these yet?

Not yet, haven't had time to finish them with all the holiday events. I wanted to take them to the club to run yesterday with an 18 car combined Super Chief-El Capitan train from GGD but I didn't even take them because they are not done yet. My slow poke self is not able to whip stuff out as good and quick as you do  If I did go that fast they would look like I threw them on the ground, rolled them around in the dirt... and of course they would not run  I don't know how you do it so fast Norm, but your stuff looks bad *ss  

In fact just the other day I busted out the Lionel Nation and Hi Rail Layout videos to watch you and your old layout. Then thought, why do I take so long to do this stuff? Just send it to Norm  I give you big "KUDOS" man!

Hurry up Ron... I'm waiting to see yours to

I think I have to much stuff going on lol oh... and I wrecked the car yesterday backing out of the garage to go to the club in San Diego.  don't ask... it was so stupid you don't even want to know.

Thanks Ron - but once they came off the model what did you do when reinstalling them.  Did you flip them left and right and remount them from the inside vice outside??  Whatever you did it corrected one of the biggest flaws in the as delivered model. 

FYI - Those grill tab holes are a residual from the FP7 tooling.  On those units the filter grills had metal tabs that folded into the body at several locations.  While sturdy a negative aspect of that approach was that the edge of the grills distorted in the area of the bent tabs.  I  discussed the issue with Scot and appreciate that he took steps to fix it on the F7 run.   

Ed Rappe

ED I actually like the grills on my FP7's better. None of them distorted, and they don't show those tab holes since they were filled. They went with tables grills fro these, I wish they would have filled those holes. It's a lot of extra work to fill ALL those holes, especially when you have 4 units.  

The grills on my PRR FP7 A-B-A grills were so noticeably distorted I asked Scott to take them back - and he graciously did so. I suspect the contrast of the stainless steel FP7 grills against the PRR dark green body served to highlight the distortion of the grill edge where the tabs bend 90 degrees to enter the body.  Whereas  the tabs on a silver body ATSF unit it wouldn't be quite as noticeable.  It also may be possible that the assembler was more careful in bending the tabs on your FP7 than mine.  Another interesting difference, on my new PRR  F7's the open unused tab holes don't show even on close examination due to the dark green background.  Seeing the tab holes on the ATSF and D&RGW models I agree it would have been best if before producing the new run without tabs on the grill they should have modified the tooling to eliminate the tab holes.  I was also disappointed to see that my PRR F7 freight service B units had steam heat roof details due to the fact that they made B's using the same tooling as when they made the PRR FP7's.  I may remove the steam heat details from the roof before weathering the units.  One change I need to make in addition to the vent windows is to make a view block in the engine compartment so one can't see the motor, boards, and all those wires.

Ed Rappe

Today, I replaced the 3 rail steps with two rail steps and attached the 2rail pilot. I learned you have to install the steps before putting the truck side frames back on.

Also, it is very hard to get the side frames back on and straight. It is very hard to put it back together with the side frames on. I'm going to take it down and do what Doug did and get rid of the battery wiring and any thing else I can think of.

Right at the moment it is just a paper weight as something in the drive train is jammed. I am not going to take the B unit apart, but mask it and paint everything satin black and I'm not going to put the 2 rail steps on it. Just too big a pain.

Ron H

Scott says there should not have been tab holes on the A units.  The B units are from the FP7s.

If anyone got a 3-rail B unit with the holes drilled and tapped for the inner stirrups I would like to see a pic. None of the 3-rail units I have picked up have them and yes LOS that is annoying.  Why the 2 and 3-rail chassis were made differently (and apparently inconsistently) is beyond me.   

Ron Im with ya there.... adding those steps was a huge PITA but Im commited now, already did one of them. Half the battle was getting the trucks back together and attached back to the frame. There was a few beers and 4 letter words tossed around on that b unit project.

One thing I noticed when I had the b unit apart... the side skirts are a separate piece and held on with 2 screws. So if anyone wanted to model a later version where the skirts had been removed.... very simple to do 

Doug,

True on the side skirts, but one would have to build out the detail of the tanks. The stock piece would not work. The thing that really ****es me off it would have been a no brainer to make a 2 rail scale F7 a 3 rail scale unit. I don't think Scott understands how attractive it might be to 3 railers moving in that direction. 

Ron H

Dave, the wing or vent pieces were installed backwards. Pop them out as I referenced above and put the reversed left on the right side and vice versa.

I remembered your article and just went back to it. Magnificent job.

Ron H

Ron H posted:

 

Doug,

True on the side skirts, but one would have to build out the detail of the tanks. The stock piece would not work. The thing that really ****es me off it would have been a no brainer to make a 2 rail scale F7 a 3 rail scale unit. I don't think Scott understands how attractive it might be to 3 railers moving in that direction. 

 

Ron H

Oh I agree, but at least we wouldn't have to cut the skirt off. We would have to build tank details anyway, but saving the hassle of cutting the skirts off without goofing up the bottom edge of the shell is a big plus for me. Not than I'm going that modern anyway

rdunniii posted:

Scott says there should not have been tab holes on the A units.  The B units are from the FP7s.

 

Well ummmmm...... there is!  so that means there is 80 holes between the 4 units I need to fill..... I think I may have to rethink that modification!

This is more Rio Grande specific. I'm redoing my pilots completely. One of them came with a gross blob of solder added after the fact to hold the lift bar in place. P&D brackets and Precision Scale chain saved the day. Since I'm re spraying with satin and painting the hood with anti glare green, re-doing the pilot seemed like the way to go anyways. Still need to prime, paint and clear coat.

Santiago,

Much better !

Ron H

I had some strip styrene that was the perfect thickness to fill the tab holes. It was a bit too wide so I just cut the end of the strip so it had a taper to it. Press it in the hole as far as I could, then cut it off flush with the wide blade xacto. Repeat 27 times for 1 B unit.

Like others posted above, you have to scrape, shave or sand all the old glue off to get the grills to lay flat. It was easier to scrape off with the wide blade xacto because that brittle CA glue just comes right off. I will NOT use a CA to put them back on. Thinking of using a clear tacky glue, because it needs to stay flexible once dry.

Removed stripes from doors. Dull broken off #11 blade scratched them right off. Also removed the small numbers from the rear sill stripe the same way. The ABBA will get a new number to match the 36" dynamic brake fan. None of my 4 units have the holes for the side steps, so they all have to come apart like this B unit. They all have the tab holes to fill.

It's to cold (yeah even in CA) to fire up the airbrush for touch ups, and I'll wait to do all 4 at the same time but my problem is:

I can't find a sliver to match. I have 6 different brands, colors and none of them are even close to this metallic looking silver. Mine are either too blue or too grey.

Doug,

I think you can just brush silver on the tab fillers and do a tiny bit of soot weathering on the scratches. Once the screen is back on I think it will be perfect. That area behind the grill got pretty grimy quickly, even on fresh units.

The grills on my A is tight so I'm not gonna mess with it. The B unit is loose though, so I will.

Great work Doug.

I too hope Scott is watching what we are doing and will consider a modeler to check for accuracy and Qc on diesels going forward before production runs. He should consider you or Santiago to do it.

Ron H posted:

... Great work Doug.

I too hope Scott is watching what we are doing and will consider a modeler to check for accuracy and Qc on diesels going forward before production runs. He should consider you or Santiago to do it.

I agree...

Doug, Santiago, Marker, Dave F; you should all be on this list for references before production, as not to get so far as to check after.  Then, as a QA officer after. 

Well I did brush on the 6 different shades of silver that I have on hand. That's how I know they are way off lol They stuck out just as bad as the black holes. Once I get back to work from vacation, I'll hit the hobby shop while at work and pick up a couple more silver options. I need to spray the pilots anyway because the silver ones I got are way different. They are much more grey. Pilots, couplers, and grill areas all need a bit of touch up before weathering. Still need some styrene rod for the holes in the nose too.

Doug, thanks for taking the time to share with everyone your efforts in fixing the issues on these engines. I would hope that everyone else that is going to go through the process will add-on to your methods and share as well.

I had a feeling that matching the silver might be an issue and so far it looks like you are not finding any success either.

Here is one option that is not cheap, but the quality of the product is very good, airbrushes well, brush, not so much.

Alclad Metallic Paint

Keep up the great work.

Charlie

I have thought about using that stuff on projects in the past Charlie, just never pulled the trigger. If I was doing a whole engine or car I would give it a whirl. I think I'm going to check out the Model Master Metalizer colors because the RC shop close to the yard carries the full line. This silver is a metallic color with lots of speckles (I don't know how else to describe it) but it is more grey than blue. Somewhat of a gun metal color but not quite that grey. With weathering and such I don't need it to be perfect, but so far, my colors are too far off and very noticeable.

Here's a much easier/quicker way to drill/tap and mount the side steps since the 3R frames were not drilled the same as the 2R frames. Don't need to take it apart like I did the first one:

Take 1 side frame off at a time, 3 screws hold it on. If you take them both off at the same time...good luck getting it back together.  Drill, tap, mount step, and then re-attach side frame. There is just enough room to get the side frame back on.

I still need to take the shell off to get the battery and extra wiring and lights out... but at least this way you don't have to drop the trucks from the frame, or spend hours trying to get the trucks back together again.

How about the silver that Santiago used on his Atlas CB&Q Fs?

I can tell that the revel silver I used wouldn't work as that is more dull alluminum. I would try testors chrome and coat it with satin to dull it a bit. 

Lowered the fuel tank, it hangs to high out of the box. I used the screws that are typically used for kadees since the ones that come with the locos are too short.

Out of the box:

Lowered:

The fix:

Well, I cannot believe it. I zip tied a bunch of the wires in the A unit to de-clutter the thing. I must have created a short somewhere when I originally put it together and some of the body screws pinched some wires on the body mounts. I have smoke coming from whatever the extra board is under the tmcc commander and the heat sink on the commander got really hot. A good sign that I fried the commander.

Shoot!

Any one know what the extra board is for????

Ron H 

Santiago, how thick is that spacer? 

LOS, they are 1/16 of an inch or 3mm. Make sure to install with the sell open so you know you didn't pinch the wires.

Question for Santiago:

I like the looks of the lowered fuel tanks, but were/are they really too high by measurement? I have not had a chance to make any measurements of my own. Your fix seems pretty easy.

Thanks.

Charlie

I swear I have seen a roof mounted   cooler pipe array who makes one if it exists. Its the last parts I need to source for the ABA NP set just found the steam generator details at Scale City Designs formerly Keil Line.  P&D had the Mu hoses and the proper winterization hatch and the firecracker radio antenna, will make the exhaust covers from Plastistruct tube cut in half.

Santiago thanks for info on MU lines your D&RGW's look grand.

LOS   is it hard to get the shells off? looks like a lot  of wires.   Mine are 2 rail so maybe not as much stuffed in there.  Your warbonnets will be quite a site and sound.

Charlie posted:

Question for Santiago:

I like the looks of the lowered fuel tanks, but were/are they really too high by measurement? I have not had a chance to make any measurements of my own. Your fix seems pretty easy.

Thanks.

Charlie

Charlie, they are high no doubt. Not Atlas high but still noticeable. That the screw threads are the same as Kadees makes it an easy fix.

Attery11, they are not that bad. Remove 6 large screws and that's it. This is an A minus the cab. Careful with the wires that go to the board! Unplug before separating completely.

Nah like Santiago said, 6 screws. The mess of wires is the only hassle, and getting the plugs apart to separate the shell from frame.

When comparing these to my Lionel F3s, the tanks are a bit higher, not real bad. I will probably lower them since its an easy fix. It does make a big visual difference.

Guys what is the third electronic unit for? Mine was placed tightly under the command unit and I think that is why it shorted.

Ron

I've been offline but coming back to this thread I see a lot has happened. Good work by all and excellent information. Really too bad we're all having to go to these lengths to fix up brand new models, but hopefully, as has been expressed here many times, some lessons have been learned and the future models coming from SS will have some input and QC oversight by a few trusted customer/modelers. It would make all the difference in the world.

But, if some issues are a matter of getting more life ($$$$) out of molds machined for other series "F" units, all the QC and oversight in the world won't make a bit of difference. If this is the case, I'm shocked the missing overhang on the "B" units wasn't discovered before the F-7 run was produced and if it was, then its just a case of "shame on you" SS.  I've learned way more than I wanted or needed to know with my F-7 purchase and am concerned what the future holds.

Butch