3rd Rail FL-9's

I am very pleased with my Fl9--arrived on Tuesday, 19 February.  Engine runs well and shows no signs of any problems. FL9s ran close to my home on a daily basis on the Harlem line.  They were very noisy---the prime mover put out quite a sound.  The missing hatch cover may be in the box.  It was wrapped tightly with tape and separately in soft tissue paper.  It isn't much larger than a postage stamp, so could easily be misplaced.  The detailing is excellent and captures the prototype quite well.  I was surprised to see that the doors were not sprung.  For an engine at such a price point, given the competition, I would think such a little detail would be part of the package. 

Thanks for the update. Hope you find the hatch and resolve the noise problems. Were you running in conventional or in command?

Iam very happy with mine! Thank you 3rd rail!

Don, it looks right at home on your layout.

Interesting comments on this  engine. I considered ordering one, NH, and am glad I did not as these type of problems are difficult to resolve. At, I think $600 a pop, I would have high expectations. Fred

Wonder if you  can switch sound from diesel to electric?

Gunny

Gunny, as far as I could tell there is only one set of sounds.

Here's some photos showing what happened to my unit. Originally I only noticed the large mark with some faded paint around it, and assumed someone at the factory accidentally scuffed it and made things worse by trying to rub it off. No big deal, it could only be seen in certain lights. However, a few days later, not only did the fading around the big mark appear to be getting worse, but two more smaller marks showed up behind it. I now suspected something chemical in the paint was going on and sure enough, when I looked at the foam cradle that protected the roof during shipping, it had three corresponding marks on it. While this may still not be that big of a deal for some folks, I am a perfectionist by nature and I am no longer happy with this blemishing given I paid $590 for a brand new locomotive from one of the most prestigious manufacturers in O-Gauge. I'll be calling on Monday to see if I can get this one replaced.

No, the model does not have this capability. It is a straight diesel sound system featuring the EMD 567 prime mover and Leslie A-200 horn. Instead of an air horn, I had been hoping for the correct Hancock air whistle but no luck. Perhaps there'll be an opportunity to modify the unit to include this unique sound in the future.

My overall impression is the Sunset FL9 is a superb model. I'll try to take a few pictures over the next few days and point out what I believe are some of the most important attributes. One point I can make right now is the accuracy of the New Haven "Socony" red. It can be a challenging color to accurately reproduce and Sunset achieved virtual perfection this regard...not a minor detail when building a model of a New Haven McGinnis painted locomotive or car.

Bob     

It looks more like the paint wasn't cured when the unit was packed.  The prototype only ran in pure electric when running into/out of the tunnels into Grand Central and Penn Station.  Since Third Rail did multiple versions of the loco they would have needed multiple horn sounds.  The original engines used the air chime and I believe the only sound set Lionel has with that particular sound is the EP-5 and that wouldn't have the correct  prime mover sounds.

Engine looks sharp other than the paint marks.  They did a nice job on the model.  Good luck with the paint!

Wonder if you  can switch sound from diesel to electric?

 

Gunny

 I don't know what an "electric" FL 9 sounds like since the Prime mover WAS running [although set at idle] even when it was underground at Grand Central. Do you know what an "all Electric" FL-9 sounds like in electric mode only?

How does it go around curves? 0-54 or 0-72

The main noise was the whine of the traction motor cooling fans.  

According to "Diesels to Park Avenue" the prime mover was shut down once the unit made contact and was "synced" to the third rail power.  They were run in diesel mode in/through the tunnels after PC allowed the maintenance to lapse.  They were restored to "normal" operating mode during refurbishing in the late 70's?

I agree with Chuck! Electric only when in tunnel!!

Gunny

According to the 3rd rail site, O-72.  The LOA is about 10 feet greater than an F9 but the model uses a horizontal drive.

I emailed Scott around the time I posted about the paint issue and he actually just got back to me even at this hour offering to replace it with a new identical unit and a return label for the blemished one. Grade A customer service right there 

When discussing this locomotive with engineers that actually ran them, it was surprising to learn that more often than not, the locomotives ran in the tunnels with the diesel prime movers running in spite of the requirement to run on electric only. 

The New Haven #409 orange is as close as one can match since a sample from the prototype was matched at the factory.  On a more interesting note to me is that phase II FL9, which this model represents used that paint while the first 30 used New Haven Orange #406. It is noticeably different when viewed side by side.

I have not had the opportunity to run mine, but I watched a friends 3 rail E7 with the same drive run for hours on the Paradise & Pacific layout flawlessly under load.  The drive runs smoother at slow speeds and can pull more cars than an equivalent "China" drive. 

Some pictures of my 3 rail versions.  The 2 rail version is on the appropriate forum. 

I ordered two FL-9's. I love the details but that front coupler AKA "Battering Ram" is simply hideous. I understand the reasons, but that HAS to go.

Scrappy

Into the 80s, the smell of diesel fumes was quite noticeable at times in GCT. Not only were FL9s run through the tunnel on diesel power but, by this time, Metro-North's former Conrail B23-7 units and cab units leased from NJ Transit were regular visitors to the terminal as well. You could actually stand on Park Avenue and, as a diesel powered train passed underneath, a cloud of exhaust would suddenly shoot up through the street gates.

Bob 

My Maine Eastern pair of locomotives arrived and were barely hour old when i cleared the dining room table to take these quick shots, the pair of real ones are a ten minute drive down the road in the roundhouse and all summer long past a block away and can be heard with great detail,one thing i can say for sure is those rear HEP units are far louder than the low growl of the prime mover, but in the cab going down the tracks,only the prime mover can be heard along with the air pops from the compressor and the rapid beeps made by a "are you still alive" warning system. I will say that yes the front coupler stick's out way to much and i want to close the gap between the pair of them. Two small details in the paint were a missing yellow stripe on the lower car body along with anti glare flat black right near the windshields, nothing that i cant do, On page 2 there is a warning about using the MTH Z750 and the Z 1000 transformers for their apparent ability to put 110 volts through the electronics,frying them so look out,i already have to purchase another transformer because of this so the test run in legacy?TMCC will have to wait until my wallet can "recharge" and that will be awhile!

Dear Folks,

We are going to produce short, dummy 3 Rail couplers, that will replace the long operating coil couplers for those that want to close couple their E7s, FL9s, Any 3rd Rail Steam Engine.

The price will be $20 + $5 S&H for a Pair of these brass casted dummy couplers.

We should have stock of these in April.

Regards,

Scott Mann

Yikes, i went to a friends house to "break in" the 2 Maine Eastern FL-9s and got to hear the horn and well....its the old school mono tone C and not even close to the 5 chime Nathan! The short couplers are definitely on the list! The ditch lights light, they do not alternate though,and the red rear end marker lamp beneath the horn cluster is just paint as well as the two top strobe lamps. Gman.

Count me in for the dummy couplers. I would just replace the front one on mine, since I don't plan on pushing anything.

Just got my replacement Penn Central FL-9. All is well, and another shout out to Scott and his company's wonderful customer service! 

Wow, I should have posted to this FL-9 thread and, for some reason, I missed it.

OK, Mea Culpa. Not only is my FL-9 gorgeous (New Haven) but it runs very smoothly and the sound is such a pleasant surprise. The speaker baffle must be great because the sound is super.

The front coupler is not nearly as bad as I thought. I was reacting to the photos i had seen on the Forum. This is truly a wonderful locomotive. Kudos 3rd Rail.

I also missed this thread the first time around.

Here's my response to the original poster: ctr, you seem to like to run fast. My advice for you is to stick with Atlas, MTH, Lionel, or any of the other brands.

I'm guessing the noise you're complaining about is from the drive train being operated at a higher-than-typical RPM. In your particular case, the flywheel may be out of balance, or there could be an alignment issue with the drive belt and pulleys.  It's also possible that a slight buzzing is being amplified by the plastic body shell.

For 20 years manufacturers have been taking the easy way out of NVH issues by using small vertical motors that swivel with the truck. One of the reasons they're quiet is because they're not turning very fast. Unfortunately, they're also not making much torque! Check the reviews in your back issues of "that other mag." Before the band-aid of electronic speed control, no vertically-motored diesel was able to run at less than 10 scale MPH, WAY too fast for smooth starts and prototypical switching.  For all their added detail, performance was no better than a postwar 2338. The ONLY 3-rail diesels that really performed well were the Weaver Ultra Line and Red Caboose, both with horizontal drives (unfortunately both light and fragile!)

Finally 3rd Rail has stepped up to the plate with a quality horizontal-drive diesel. Yes it's is a passenger loco that could probably exceed 70 mph in real life. But most of us have only 10' or 12' of straightaway, so IMO 60 mph is plenty fast. Put your face at a "scale" distance from the track, or bust out an old RailScope and see what a mile-a-minute looks like in O scale.

I've always wanted a cab unit with a fixed pilot, that would start smoothly and maintain a steady, slow speed without resorting to electronic gimmicks. Scott, please don't "dumb down" the gear ratio of your models for the sake of making them run quieter or faster. There are plenty of choices out there for folks who want to run 100 mph. You have a unique, differentiated product offering- please keep it that way! Perhaps you can address the NVH issues by mounting the motor with rubber grommets, molding a brace into the car body, etc., but please don't change the gear ratio!

One suggestion: Based on the photos I've seen, I agree that the 3-rail pilot and coupler detracts from an otherwise scale appearance. Atlas offers their 3-rail cab units with a scale pilot in the box for those who don't want to do facing point moves. I would like to see 3rd Rail do the same.
Thanks and please keep up the good work!
Ted Sowirka

I do not know what a NVH issue is. Please define.

My main complaint is poor performance of the engine that I received. I have discussed my issue with 3rd Rail. I expect to exchange my engine for one that does not have the noisy chatter of my present engine. 

I expect an engine with this price tag to be a quiet and smooth runner at any speed.

My Atlas-O SW's run very well at slow speed and are not noisy.

I really don't understand why slow speed performance is worshipped for a passenger engine. I use my Atlas-O SW's for switching. I do not intend to use my FL9 for switching. I have a large enough layout that I do not feel that I have to run my passenger trains under speed restrictions. 

I lived near the exit to the Park Ave tunnel until 1969. Spent many hours watching the trains enter and leave. Spent time on the GCT platforms too in the late 60's. Now I live along side the Harlem Division in Westchester and until a couple of years ago these locomotives were still in use. I can tell you the sounds never changed - those diesels were always on. In the tunnel and out. Yes they spewed exhaust smoke out the Park Ave tunnel vents as they traveled along.

At the time of Metro-North's start up in 1983, the equipment situation was tenuous. Even the former Conrail B23-7 units which had been conveyed by CR to MNCR were running directly into the terminal. The operation of the GEs underground was something to see and hear.

Bob 

Here's the train at a more head-on angle:

NVH = Noise, Vibration, and Harshness.  This term comes up frequently when discussing automotive drivetrains but it's equally applicable here.

Your Atlas O SW switcher is the rare, rare exception; perhaps the only mass-produced O gauge diesel with a performance-oriented drive train.  However its gear ratio is 15.3:1, which isn't really that low.  Combined with the tiny and inexpensive Mabuchi RS-385 motor that Atlas spec'd for these, it's capable of speeds in excess of 70 scale mph.  So this drivetrain would actually be better suited for a GP-9 or F-3.  I spent two years trying to convince the folks at Atlas of this.  But when the switcher was designed, Atlas was new to the 3-rail market.  They didn't understand that most 3-railers care little about slow-speed operation.  They soon realized that there was more profit and perceived marketing value in using two small, cheap motors with a big electronic sandwich in between.  So unfortunately, the HO-style "cassette drive" in the SW was never repeated.

Another reason your switcher runs more quietly, is because the hood and frame are die-cast metal.  There's a reason they don't make band instruments out of Zamak no. 3! 

Given the small production runs, I imagine Scott couldn't afford to tool metal "gear cassettes" (like the SW has) for his 4- and 6-wheel trucks.  So he went with individual axle gearboxes instead.  This is a common and respected approach in 2-rail O scale.  A "tower drive" such as this will be noisier, but an indirect advantage is that it's usually possible to change the gear ratio (more on that below.)

The advantages of a large, torquey motor combined with a low gear ratio go beyond sustained slow speed for drag freight.  In a passenger loco, this combo has the potential to confer a much smoother start, especially the initial transition from stopped to moving.  Think one... two.. three scale MPH with the slack stretched.  For those who just turn their trains on and let them run, this doesn't matter.  But for those of us who really operate our trains, nothing pricks the delicate bubble of realism like a jerky start.  Reduction gears multiply torque, and the smoothing effect of the flywheel(s) is especially dependent on RPM.  This transition is very hard to get right with closed-loop feedback electronics alone.  (Look at some YouTube videos of Proto-2 diesels to see what I mean.)

Getting back to your issue... I'm willing to bet that 3rd Rail can change the pulleys in your loco specifically to give it a higher top speed.  If you're still unhappy, and taking into account the size of your layout, you can probably afford the services of someone like this:

http://rodmiller.com/drives.html

For the rest of us poor folk with straightaways of 12' or less, slow trains make a short run seem longer.  I reiterate that we would be better off if 3rd Rail and the other manufacturers geared their locos for a speed range of 3~60 mph WITHOUT the need for failure-prone electronics.

My post isn't meant as a personal diatribe, so please don't take it that way.  I know Scott and reps from the other manufacturers read this board.  The recent cab units from 3rd Rail could spark a revolution in O gauge dieseldom that's been 14 years overdue.  I simply can't remain silent and see that spark extinguished by complaints, however well-founded, from a less well-informed minority.  Thanks for understanding, sincerely.  -Ted

Looks like the rear truck is mounted backwards on the FL9...

third rail shoe should be forward and fusebox to the rear. 

I believe Jim is correct

This is the rebuild/restore

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/nh2002.jpg

There is one other photo in the rail archives where the pickup shoe is on the forward part of the trailing truck but so is the fuse box.  Not sure if this moved around over time/rebuilds?