3rd Rail FL9

The paint jobs look nice, but does anyone have side by side comparisons of FL9s and the conventional F7 or F9 to show detailed differences that might matter??

Per today's e-mail from Scott, the FL9's are finished so hopefully delivery will be soon.

Our main factory is going strong. The 4-4-2/10-6 Sleepers and Columbian Coaches (Aluminum Cars) are finished. The FL9 Diesel are now finished.

The FL-9 is slightly longer than a standard F7 or F9.  The "L" stands for lengthened.  I don't recall how much longer off the top of my head.

The biggest spotting difference from all other F units and the FL-9 is that it has B A-1-A trucks while other F units have B-B trucks.

The rear truck of the FL-9 has one more axel than other F units to spread the weight over more wheels to meet the weight restrictions of the Park Avenue bridges into New York's Grand Central Terminal.  The FL-9's were built for the New Haven railroad specifically for this service.

The FL-9s also have a 3rd rail collection shoe attached to their trucks.  This allowed them to operate using the New York Central railroad's 3rd rail system when operating into New York.  FL-9's used their diesel engines when operating outside New York City.  The collection shoes were folded up when they were not needed.  

Also, all FL-9s were A units.  There were no B unit real FL-9s.  Most FL-9s were operated in A-A unit back to back combinations

All FL-9s were originally built for the New Haven railroad.  They have been operated by many other railroads, mostly in passenger service, since they were built nearly 60 years ago.

Except for some brass models, this is the first accurate model of the FL-9 that has been made in O gauge to the best of my knowledge.  

Lionel, Williams and others have painted standard F units in the New Haven railroad's red, black and white (McGinnis) scheme.  These are not true FL-9s.  They have also made fake B units.

I am looking forward to getting these engines operating on my New Haven layout.  I hope that they sell well for 3rd rail.  This will be a very unique engine and not many others will have it.

Joe

Coupler to coupler measurements:

FT A unit = 47'6"

F3/7/9 A unit = 50'8"

FP7/9 = 54'8"

FL9 = 59'0"

No B units for FP7/9 or FL9

Rusty

Can anyone tell from the photos (I cannot) whether the pilot on these models is the same as a PRR passenger pilot?

All FL9s have a standard F freight pilot.

Rex,

Pilots are different from the pilot on the Sunset E-7's.

Let me anticipate your next question; are there extra pilots?

Not in this run of the FL-9 but when the FP-7 gets done there should be extra notched (freight style) pilots.

Bob

Freight pilots will be of NO use to the people with PRR engines. The great majority of PRR F's and E's came with passenger pilots with coupler doors as built. Quite a few NYC engines were also equipped with that style pilot.

Simon

Simon,

I have had numerous requests about availability of freight pilots which is why I answered the way I did. At this point there are no plans for PRR specific pilots. Not sure if P&D has them or not.

Bob,

The pilot in question (so called 'passenger' pilot) is not PRR specific. It was equipped on both E and F units of many roads beside the PRR.

Among them: NYC, UP, CB&Q, Wabash, B&O, MKT

Simon

That sounds definitive.

First guy to post a photo of the supposed P&D PRR pilot wins the Crackerjack prize.

I'm suspicious of the Pennsy pilot of which you speak.

Do you have pictures of the real thing???

I'm suspecting that this could be A) an outshopping job done by the Pennsy itself, or B) you're thinking of a different locomotive, like a Pennsy ALCO...

Just a thought.

Check the Keystone Modeler #76 (on PRRTHS website) for a review and pix of the Walthers HO version of the as-built E7. This ain't yer father's standard EMD passenger pilot.

OK, this is getting a little silly.  The Pennsylvania Railroad never bought any FL9s and none were delivered to any railroad with the so called passenger pilot.

Here are a couple of pics of the Lionel version of the passenger pilot that came on their F7s

Sorry, no pics of the PD hobbies version.

Here is an EMD Builders photo of an F3 with the passenger pilot with coupler doors. There were some shop made variations but the pilot shown in this link was what was on MOST PRR E and F units as they came from EMD.

   http://www.billspennsyphotos.c...oto?photoid=94710742

Simon

The Lionel pilot is actually a fair rendition of what the factory EMD pilot looked like when the coupler doors were removed.

On the as built EMD pilot the doors opened to the side, then the lower section of the pilot (the "arch") flipped up to a vertical position to allow coupling.

For a span of time, the PRR mandated that all their diesels (at least the EMD ones) have coupler doors. Eventually this practice was reversed, the doors were removed, and the pilots ended up looking very similar to the Lionel made one that Richard has pictured in his post.

As mentioned in my earlier post, the PRR was NOT the only road with diesels equipped in this fashion......there were several other roads that had E's and F's equipped the same way.

Simon

Thanks for posting the prototype photo Simon.  As Simon states the vast majority of Pennsy's EMD E's and F's were ordered from EMD with the "straight" passenger pilots.  The exception to this rule were the first two E7 A units and F3 A units which came with  EMD  notched pilots ( sometimes referred to as freight pilots).  What did vary widely in the early diesel years were the coupler covers.  The PRR in conjunction with EMD experimented with several designs before settling on the style seen in the F3 photo.  Late production PRR E7's and F3's were delivered with that pilot from EMD, as well as all F7's, FP7s, and E8's.  In the mid 50's the PRR removed the coupler covers when the units were shopped adding another look. 

What can be said definitively is that all PRR FP7's were delivered from EMD with straight pilots equipped with coupler covers similar to those in the F3 photo. Note that the slope of the pilot is less raked than those on early production E units - which Sunset used on their E7's.  While the raked straight pilot may have been correct for some roads, it was incorrect for PRR E units.  If Scott gets the PRR FP7 pilots correct, the same pilot would be excellent replacements for the incorrect pilots on our PRR E7's.

Sunset has announced 14 different paint schemes for their FP7.  It would be useful if modelers knowledgeable in those roads would post what style pilot they were delivered with.  The PRR FP7's were also delivered with large transverse mounted water tanks just behind the front truck.  Did any other roads order their FP7's this way?  

Ed Rappe

rdunniii-

the pix look hopeful. Couldn't find any reference on the Lionel site. Do you have a part number?

IMHO, the best course of action would be to lobby for Scott Mann to have the correct as built pilot made. Considering the fact that it is NOT PRR specific and was used by several roads, a bunch of folks out there would have a need for them. Actually, I think there is a market for both the freight and passenger styles as parts.

Simon

I asked Scott Mann this very thing. His reply:

Dear Eugene,

Thats a good idea (extra pilots from FP7, I will look into it.

Thanks,

Scott Mann
*********

Now, all we have to do is to hope that the FP7 pilots are the real deal.

The CB&Q also used the so-called "passenger pilot" on their freight F-units:

Image www.burlingtonroute.com

While the Santa Fe used the so-called freight pilots on their passenger units:

Go figure...  Obviously, the railroads didn't know nuttin' about how to equip their locomotives.

Rusty

Two roads had FP7s delivered with straight pilots; Milwaukee and Pennsylvania.  Also Scott has said he wants to do E8/9s which, with few exceptions came with the straight pilots.  Scott tried to have the straight pilots done with the second run of E7s but the builder said that would an cost extra as it was not part of the original contract so...

Have extra ones done then. Better late than never!

Simon

Go figure...  Obviously, the railroads didn't know nuttin' about how to equip their locomotives.

 

Rusty

Which begs the question, did EMD actually use that terminology?

Almost ALL of the PRR F units had the so called 'Passenger' pilots and they seldom ever hauled anything but freight! Guess it doesn't matter what you call them as long as the units are equipped correctly.

Simon

Lucky us.  The most important glitch is the stupid pilot.  I bet Brother Love could hammer out a batch of these things before breakfast. I bet even I could make one in an evening while watching the news.

Reminds me of the angst when Sunset forgot a headlight visor.

OK, I'm from Missouri, show me!

Simon

PS: Take a look at a Key Imports version....that is the benchmark.