3RD RAIL FT DIESELS HIT THE TEST TRACK

Its never too early to start plugging Scott for these models, production of the Fs will start soon and after that he could be open to the best suggestions.

There was this thread earlier this year.....

https://ogrforum.com/t...sunset-3rd-rail-fp45

We need something to pull the combined Super Chief/El Capitan but lets not hi-jack this thread on the great new FTs

 That's what the F7s are for.  But agreed.  Putting plugs for other things in any thread is pretty much a waste of time and electrons.

I'm curious to see if more 3RS modelers order the F7 than did the FTs. It is my understanding that the FT project was almost entirely 2 rail with only a "handful" of 3 rail models made. If that's the case with the F7 then if I were Scott I would probably start putting threads over on the 2 rail forum instead of here.

I just reserved my set of Erie F7s in 2 rail. I'm really looking forward to these. I hope Scott just keeps going with these diesels. I can think of many others that I would buy.

SD7/9, GP30, Alco PA, Alco FA, RS-2/3, SD40-2, etc...

IMHO These engines are in a class of their own and I think Scott has done a fantastic job with them. They are a higher detail level and run better than the existing 3 rail based models, but they cost much less than brass. They really are in a "sweet spot". Keep them coming Scott

if I were Scott I would probably start putting threads over on the 2 rail forum instead of here.

Perhaps the 2 railers are well informed and the 3RS and 3 rail modelers are needed to put the required numbers over the top.  Therefore, the 3RS section may be the place to post.  It's hard enough to get people from the "Hi-Rail, O27 and Traditional 3-Rail O Gauge" to look in the 3RS section.  It seems they hardly ever look in the 2 rail section.  On the other hand, I see 2 railers posting in both the 3RS and Hi-Rail sections.

I am happy that 2 railers are nearly enough to support these projects.  I think it indicates that many naysayers posting there isn't enough 2 railers to support various projects may be wrong.  

I spend most my "forum time" on 3rs and 2 rail sections.   

I do think that 2 rail is in decline. That's one of the reasons I decided to start acquiring the models I want. I don't know how much longer we will see new 2 rail products so I'm going to take advantage while I can. It could be a different market in 10-15 years. With the build to order model it forces me to reserve or regret I hate to admit that because I dislike pre-ordering, but it is the way of things these days.

It is still surprising to me that more 3RS modelers didn't purchase the FTs. There sure was a lot of lip service given to the contrary. Not many followed through apparently. Strange, as it seems like the perfect 3RS model to me. Oh well, I'll get my in 2 rail and be quite happy.

It is still surprising to me that more 3RS modelers didn't purchase the FTs. 

I would have but it was too many ATSF releases together.   I had to pick and choose.   GGD/3rd rail making a ATSF Hudson, FTs' and SuperChief all at once simply priced me out of being able to buy all 3.  

Well the Hudson project was can cancelled, so you should order the F7's now

I do think that 2 rail is in decline.

I can't totally agree, but we all have our thoughts and opinions. I think the model train hobby in general is in decline (the last MRH editorial disagrees with this), but I think many N and HO modelers who stick with it will transition into the larger gauges as they get older. Whether that is S, O or G I can't say. 

I think it's fantastic that Scott took a chance with the horizontal drive E and F units and I also think it will become a substantial part of their business going forward.

Most 2Rer's tolerated the China Drive because the options were/are limited in RTR, but now the game has changed. I only hope the 3R crowd will support this new drive and 3rd rail in this endeavor. 

The Atlas O and Lionel (scale) F units are still some of the best looking and most accurate diesel shells in the hobby, but I just can't get around the drive. Don't want to debate it and not trying to start a firestorm, it's just my personal feelings. 

butch

Well Butch, I also agree and disagree with what you said to some extent so we're even

I've read a lot lately to suggest that Model railroading in general is actually growing. The problem for us is that the bulk of that is in the smaller scales. At 40 yrs. old I am a veritable kid in 2 rail O demographics. The number of modelers that depart the hobby over the next 10 years or so will not be replaced by new members coming into O scale in my opinion. While it sounds nice to think that as people age they will increase the size of their trains, I have seen too many gentlemen in their 60's, 70's, and 80's at local train shows that are active members of HO and N scale clubs to believe that. I just don't think they will give up what they have done for decades and start over. Again just my opinion.

As far as Scott goes I agree with you. My personal dislike of the China drive isn't the performance. I've seen good China drives creep along under 1 scale mph. My problem is the space it takes in the cab. I want cab interiors. That alone is worth the difference in price to me.  When you add in the fact that they come with the QSI Titan decoders on the 2 rail models it puts it over the top for me.  I spent about an hour at the Nat'l train show talking to Josh (QSI owner) about what he is doing and listening to the latest sound files. Amazing stuff.

  If I were Scott I would be turning these projects over as fast as I could to get on to the next because I still think a few years down the road and we will be looking at a different market. Make hay while the sun is shining Either way, I'm glad he is making them and I can't wait to see what's next.

Bear in mind the vast majority of 3 railers have good to large size collections of trains and most feature a lot of the variants that Lionel, MTH and Atlas have produced, so basically another F unit[1100.00 AB price] is obiviously not high on the priority list, perhaps the F units will sell better in 3 rail[time will tell]. Just an observation but the recently posted pics of the Strasberg O meet [65pics] I do not believe showed anybody under 65 and I know a number of these people[49 years in O scale] clearly there were people less than 65 who attended or might have had a table but the pics are revealing.

Well the nice thing about a hobby and this forum is we can agree to disagree and still be friends. It's all opinion anyway and in my case I guess wishful thinking. I started in O scale when I was only a little older that you Jonathan and its been a good 20+ year experience. It is definitely a gray party these days, but actually, it always was. I can remember my first March Meet in 1993 and it was full of gray hair then except for a few of us youngsters.   So hopefully enough of the aging modelers in the smaller scales these days will transition into O scale down the road. 

I believe Hibar hit the nail on the head regarding the 3R market. There has been some very nice looking and accurate F units on the market for years. I believe 3rdrail can sew up the 2R market and hopefully as time goes on the 3R crowd will join in as they need new motive power.

Regardless, it sure will be nice to have a great looking RTR F unit, with a a good drive, truck side frames where they should be and a complete interior, without having to break the bank to own them.  

butch

 It is definitely a gray party these days, but actually, it always was

A sign of wisdom?

A market phenomenum I have noted is a bit of a convergence of pricing of products in O Scale and HO. Now I will confess I have not made a scientific study of this, but nowadays a fellow of somewhat modest means can get into O Scale almost as painlessly as HO. What impelled me into O Scale in 1968 was mass - - - O scale trains just look more like the prototype, and that, for me, is a more aesthetically pleasing experience. Looking at a finely detailed HO locomotive is disappointing.......it's just so tiny. The appeal of mass and moderate price may sustain O Scale's viability.

        Product availabilty and variety reached it's pinacle in the 1990's and early 2000's. I feel that high end brass variety will shrink away to a trickle going forward. But, then, our economy no longer supports wages for expensive collectibles for the average schmoe. So my aquisitions, except from the secondary market, have probably peaked.

So my aquisitions, except from the secondary market, have probably peaked.

Well not for me

 Lionel Legacy F7 A-B-A

MTH C-Liners A-B-A

Lionel Legacy U28C

Love those FM'S!  Well, except for King Kong's hand sticking out of the pilot! (just jesting a bit, no offense intended - the great resurgence of 3-rail has significantly increased O Scale participation - to the good!)

Pretty decent.

"Pretty decent."

I think that is an understatement.

The new standard of comparison.  Excellent!!!!!

Looks to be a drawbar between the A & B units.  Hope someone can come up with a way to convert the drawbar to a coupler.  When Intermountain first came out with the N scale FTs, they had drawbars but soon saw the error of their ways.  It won't be easy for the same reason it wasn't easy on the 1:1 units.

Allan

The 3rd picture down from the top shows Kadee couplers between the units 

It does...but then check out the truck spacing.  The coupler is between two B units.

Allan

Those Santa Fe's are drop dead gorgeous, now if I could afford them,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Oh well there's always Santa          and I have been very good..

Rod

My 2 rail Erie FT AB set arrived today. I am pleased, but not exactly thrilled if I'm being honest.

First, There is a drawbar and a tether so neither the A or B can operate independently. I guess I missed that, but that's not what I wanted. I like to operate a single A unit. It doesn't look like there is room for a Kadee box between the truck and the end of the frame. If the F7's are going to be the same I may have to cancel my pre-order. I wanted to be able to run A, AA, ABA, etc... Unless I am missing something I don't see how that can be done. It looks like AB or ABBA only.

Second, minor, but you can really see the motor easily through the portholes. Perhaps some black paint is in order because it is distracting to me.

Third, They are running kind of rough at low speed steps. This could just need some break-in so I will defer judgment until later. The B unit sound are much louder than the A unit though out of the box. I think with some CV adjustments and break-in this behavior should smooth out.

On the positive side, the details are nice. Especially in the cab. AND the AB units went around 24"r with an Atlas Trainman 48' gondola in tow even though they are rated for 48"r.

It's my understanding that Sunset/3rd Rail/GGD produced the FT models primarily in "as delivered" configurations. Thus, there would NOT have been a coupler arrangement between the "A" and the "B" units, nor could the "A" have operated singly as the "A" & "B" were prototypically "draw-bared" together plus the batteries were located inside the "B" unit only, so the "A" unit could not have operated without the "B" anyway.

Later on, many railroads up-graded their sets of FT units by eliminating the draw-bars and installing couplers/draft gears between the "A" & "B" units, plus adding sets of batteries to the "A". Still, some railroads never changed-out the draw-bars between the "A" & "B", and even wound up trading them in to EMD in that configuration, in the 1960s, for GP30s/GP35s/GP40s.

You are probably correct. I need to know what the plan is for the F7s. Hopefully they will have couplers.

As info, ALL "F" series units, AFTER the FT model, came from the EMD factory with couplers on BOTH ENDS. Thus, the frames of the REAL FT units was quite different from all the remaining and succeeding "F" models. 

Another reason why Atlas O did NOT ever offer "FT" models since the tooling from P & D Hobby Shop was ONLY for "F" unit modes from "F2" through "F9".

Jonathan,

The F-7 units will have couplers only - no drawbars.

Also, the F-7's are being offered as single "A" or "B" units and the price is the same on both, which strongly suggests they will run independently and singularly. I'm counting on this as I plan to use the 3rd rail "A" and "B" units to power other F dummies I own from other mfgs. 

Butch

We've been through the draw bar discussion before.   A number of roads, including the Santa Fe which had the largest order for FTs, required the as delivered units to have couplers between the units.  It was difficult to do because the truck spacing left little room. The truck spacing was different on all of the other F unit designs.  I was curious as to what Scott was going to do given what he said in the delivery notice..."If your order consisted of A-A, A-B-B, there will be a delay in getting your order out, as we have to modify the Units to accept your consist. The modifications are simple, but it will have to wait until most of the orders are shipped. The same people shipping are the same people fixing."

On another note, I have yet to receive the UPS tracking notice so thank you for posting the pictures.

Allan

I certainly hope they break in and run well for you, Jonathan. One of the things that drives me crazy about O scale (well 2-R O scale anyway,but I suspect today's 3-R isn't much different) is how poorly the bigger equipment runs, when compared to today's HO scale. My Atlas O engines are ok at best, and the Lionel and MTH engines I observed have been good, but not great by any means.

Jeff C

I know what you mean Jeff. I'm not exactly sure why, but my smaller scale engines all seem to run better/smoother out of the box. It's not that these are bad necessarily. Many people may be ok with them, but having smaller models that run better makes me a bit more critical than most.

The QSI Titan Magnum is a Ferrari compared to other decoders that are Ford's and Chevy's.  The good news is that when properly tuned they are awesome runners and have vastly superior lighting and sound options.  The bad news is that they need to be properly tuned. 

As proof I have a customized Sunset E7 AB.  Came from Scott with a QSI OEM Titan Q2 decoder in the A unit and a tether to the powered B unit.   One speaker in the A unit.

It now has  the original OEM decoder in the A unit upgraded from Q2 to Q3 and instead of one speaker two speakers in the A unit taking advantage of the decoder's two each 2 watt independent channels.

And  a second aftermarket double stack QSI Titan Q3 decoder has been added to the B unit.  No more tether.  The B unit also has two speakers, one for each channel..

Furthermore, both decoders have been tuned for fine motor control.

The sound is spectacular and the low speed operation is the best because of Scott's drive system.

So, what's my point?  Scott delivers a great product at a great price point.  If you want to make it sound and run better you can do so. 

Or you can spend two to three times the money for a model that may have a few more prototypical features but comes with plain old DC operation and then start from scratch adding a decoder, lights, speakers etc. etc.

I'm just sayin'  C'mon guys.  Are we spoiled or what?

Austin Bill

Fantastic Insight Bill!  I think we do forget where we have been (at least in O 2R) and what we have now. As long as I can have a good horizontal drive to start with, accurate dimensions and contours and a good factory paint job I'm way ahead of where I've been. 

butch

I'm glad to hear that Austin Bill. I assumed as much. As far as being spoiled... Yes it would take 3x the money and you would start from scratch for a better O scale model. BUT I can also put the same decoder and sound files into an HO unit with more detail that will run better out of the box for a fraction of what I paid for these. I know most people don't cross-shop HO, but I do. I'm still on the fence about which scale I will be building my next layout in. Mostly due to space restrictions.

I don't want to come off negative about Scott's models though. I think he does a great job filling a niche in the hobby. These are definitely a step up from the other plastic models. If I can sort out the running characteristics, upgrade to Q3 sound files, and tweak the sounds a bit I think they will be a good addition to the roster. They have done quite well on my tight radius testing so running them together as a unit (The way God intended ) shouldn't be an issue. I'm glad Scott did these, and I'm glad that I took a chance on them. There aren't many other options for 2 railers these days. 

Now to place an order for a QSI programmer