3rd Rail Texas and Pacific 2-10-4

Griff,

I'm getting #2 of 14. I have been waiting for a T&P 2-10-4 for over 20 years since I got back into trains.

I have bought a lot of T&P and Missouri Pacific diesels from 3rd rail lately and have a bunch on order. If it was not for all of those diesels I would have gotten (2) 2-10-4's

Have ordered a black TP 2-10-4 and the CGW version , too.  I ordered black for an "in service" look. Hope/presume the Texas & Pacific herald will be on the front of the Elesco feed water heater tank, in the black version also.   I'll be humming this tune (!):   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHzz5pp5YXI

The black boiler is the way the sole survivor, 610,is painted at the Texas State Railroad, but back in the day T&P painted all of the steamers (except the blue postwar passenger engines) with “Light russian” boilers in actual service, a lot of people use GN gray green but with weathering it could look lighter and even a little bluish but some of that is due to deteriorating photo colors.

At least two buyers and I was one, so advised Scott Mann and he did consult a T&P expert to get the right color, or at least as right as it can be at this point.

These are THE iconic Texas locomotives and I never dreamed a three Rail “O” one would be made, I would look at Pennsys and Santa Fe’s and dream of kitbashing one or having a custom builder do it. I sold off two firearms to pay for it, it’s truly the locomotive I thought I would buy in Heaven... if I ever get there!

I have a couple of color photos I can post later- having internet problems just at the moment. One is 2-10-4 638 and mountain 909.

I agree - gorgeous.  Shame to have to put up with inaccurate flanges on such a museum piece.  I too have a 900 series Mountain, but it is not really accurate.  Will look for a photo.

Bob, please advise... what's wrong with the flanges?

Here are some color photos. The 2-10-4 appears slightly weathered giving a bluey look to the boiler. Photos courtesy of Tom Stamey

z

And out of the last three paint scheme, I would venture the AFT to be the most numerous.

Ted S posted:

Bob, please advise... what's wrong with the flanges?

He is obviously referring to the oversize "pizza-cuter" flanges on all 3-Rail models. 

The only 900 class Mountains in T&P scheme I am familiar with are the semiscale MTH and "Sears" Lionel ones, both with inaccurate coal tenders for starters, and the postwar blue/white passenger schemes some of them wore for the last 5 years of steam on T&P before full dieselization.

Griff Murphey posted:

The only 900 class Mountains in T&P scheme I am familiar with are the semiscale MTH and "Sears" Lionel ones, both with inaccurate coal tenders for starters, and the postwar blue/white passenger schemes some of them wore for the last 5 years of steam on T&P before full dieselization.

Remember, Bob2 is a 2-Rail modeler and scratch builder. There is no telling what model he is referring to, until he provides photos and additional information.

Right. IMO he would have to be talking about a scratchbuilt model because the ONLY T&P 2 rail scale loco ever manufactured was the LMB 2-10-4. I nearly faint with Texan pride when my 2 rail friend runs his one....

Griff,

   Congrat on a rea nice Engine, have fun with her on the tracks! T&P 909 very serious stuff.

PCRR/Dave

Hot is correct.  My Mountain is a one-of-a-kind, and actually my first real attempt at creating an O Scale locomotive.  Coal in tender, not much in the way of detail anywhere, and in fact not O gauge, but 1 1/8" gauge, so that the locomotive itself better fits the track gauge.  Its genesis is an All Nation Mountain sand cast boiler.  The tender is a wood block.

In my opinion, a truly scale model ought not to have huge flanges on the outer drivers, contrasted with no flanges on the rest.  That is just an opinion, and obviously some find such flanges add to, rather than detract from, a fine scale model.

Here is my dirtbag Mountain.  I have done better since - once in a while a lot better:

She is a beauty!!

I have the Hallmark HO one. It may never be run by me as I have moved more into O 3rail, although the only layout I have is HO.

Think it was Max Gray that imported the only other O scale  TP 2-10-4, in the early '60's.  

Thanks for that correction. I one time I had two of the HO LMBs - real dogs, the O 2-Rail ones have real bad reputations. My two friends that have those have had to have a lot of work done on them.

The Feb 1978 "Trains" had a quite definitive article on the TP 2-10-4's by Charles M. Mizell, Jr. The article addresses the color issue:

"Quite a few of us saw the 600's, but evidently very few of us looked at them. There is more disagreement about the color of T&P locomotives than any other point. As best as I have been able to determine, they were gloss black, with "Sta-brite" silver graphite smokeboxes and fireboxes; red oxide cab roofs between the eaves; brass safety valves, whistles and bells; burnished rods and valve gear. Freight engines had black stack rims and valve and cylinder head covers, passenger engines had nickel silver. Lettering was gold.  And yet, builder specifications required that boiler jacket, air pumps and cylinder covers be painted in Charles R. Long Co. no. 162 "Light Russia".

Mr. Mizell goes on to say that Russian Iron alloy was used in the 19th century to deter rusting, but the color was was carried forward in paint, varying from a greenish tint to a definite gray. "One old painter said we mixed it up until we got the right color, and that's what we used". Mr. Mizell goes on to say, "however, I remember seeing the 616 about 1947 and remarking to myself that it was black". My bet is that locomotives came out of shops after getting classified repairs, painted in #162 "Light Russia", but after time on the road and getting repainted, they ended up in black. Hence, either black or Russia Iron would be correct for these locomotives. We all can rest easy !!

Hi guys,

Here is a photo clearly showing an in service T&P 2-10-4 showing a lighter boiler and cylinder jacket.

610 was tarted up with a script logo reading WILL ROGERS and it was placed on display at the east side of the Will Rogers Colosseum in Fort Worth in the 1950's. As a boy, I visited the engine many times. It had the boiler and cylinder jackets painted a light gray like navy haze gray. It deteriorated a great deal with the cab suffering the attention of gauge smashers and other vandalism, with dangling boiler jacket and lagging hanging out. When it was restored to running condition in 1975-76 it was quite a surprise to me. Who painted it that color TP or the City, I have no idea... But it does imply that someone tried to ape a lighter pre existing color on the engine when it was painted as it was put on display. 

Here are a couple of poor snapshots I took of 610 pulling the American Freedom Train when it came thtough Fort Worth. This happily coincided with some leave I took from the USN to come home and get engaged!

How is this locomotive "Compatible with Legacy, DCS, TMCC, Conventional"?  Does it have two control boards?

What, me worry?

I assume its suite of circuit boards and black boxes is at least the equal of the Lionel engine which can be run by dummies with old time transformers. It’s all magic to me - I own only a Z-400 from MTH.

Alfred E Neuman posted:

How is this locomotive "Compatible with Legacy, DCS, TMCC, Conventional"?  Does it have two control boards?

What, me worry?

No, it does NOT have "two control boards".  Sunset/3rd Rail locomotives, for the 3-Rail modeler, come with Electric RailRoad, i.e. TMCC control. Thus, they will also operate under conventional. With the MTH DCS system, assuming you have a TMCC base attached, the DCS system will control the TMCC.

I am very conventional.

Any word on when these will be ready?

These are in transit to SS 3rd rail Scott said they are due at San Ramon August 2 nd. shipping will begin shortly there after. If you did not reserve one with the numbers he told me for the Texas paint versions, you will not get one.

A very good friend of mine  Bill Basden of Delta Models was very instrumental in providing Data and reviewing  builder drawings to get these done right. He is well known for his 60 years modeling the Texas and Pacific. "These models are nothing less than spectacular"

Bob Harris

I seem to remember that the T&P donated a 4-8-2 for display that was vandalized to death.  The T&P acquired a 4-8-2 Mohawk from the NYC to replace the vandalized 4-8-2.  The T&P painted it to match their own engine.    ODD-D

Well the T&P actually donated 2-10-4 638 to Dallas and was incensed at the vandalism it endured. TP cut it up on the spot in a fit of rage but later felt bad about it and purchased and donated the NYC loco which had a fake oil bunker added and TP lettering. That engine was later relettered by the Age of Steam museum which was built up around it at Fair Park in Dallas. That entire collection including various diesels, the Big Boy with its valve gear cut, the Frisco Decapod, Union Terminal’s  0-6-0 and numerous Texas Road named passenger cars, has been moved to the new Railrod museum in Frisco, north of Dallas. I think they even have a GG-1. The museum also inherited the fabulous G scale layout master modeler Rob Reid built. Unfortunately he was not contracted to move and modify the layout but most of it is still original including museum quality figure conversions and scenery.

That 3rd Rail loco looks great! I've always liked the looks of 2-10-4 locos--they are powerful and elegant at the same time.

Jeff C

mark s posted:

Have ordered a black TP 2-10-4 and the CGW version , too.  I ordered black for an "in service" look. Hope/presume the Texas & Pacific herald will be on the front of the Elesco feed water heater tank, in the black version also.   I'll be humming this tune (!):   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHzz5pp5YXI

Yes the cast etching was added to the FWH,again Bill basden provided 3 rd rail with photo'sof a real one he has that was on the real locomotive take in Bunkie Louisiana it is now hanging on his work shop door. Weighs 45 lbs.

That's certainly a beautifully detailed model.  Worth the wait. 

Griff Murphey posted:

Well the T&P actually donated 2-10-4 638 to Dallas and was incensed at the vandalism it endured. TP cut it up on the spot in a fit of rage but later felt bad about it and purchased and donated the NYC loco which had a fake oil bunker added and TP lettering. That engine was later relettered by the Age of Steam museum which was built up around it at Fair Park in Dallas. That entire collection including various diesels, the Big Boy with its valve gear cut, the Frisco Decapod, Union Terminal’s  0-6-0 and numerous Texas Road named passenger cars, has been moved to the new Railrod museum in Frisco, north of Dallas. I think they even have a GG-1. The museum also inherited the fabulous G scale layout master modeler Rob Reid built. Unfortunately he was not contracted to move and modify the layout but most of it is still original including museum quality figure conversions and scenery.

Yes, they have a GG-1. In addition to the Big Boy, among other locos, they also have this nice Frisco Northern. 

• Nice shot of the Frisco in Meteor paint. As they have gone to so much trouble with the paint it'd be neat if they could fake the drive rods with some kind of replica, maybe cast resin... I had forgotten about this loco last time I saw it it was at the old Age of Steam in Fair Park... 30 or more years ago. At. That time they had two or three guys in their 60's or 70's beavering away with circular sanders and spray painting gear but they could never keep up with the rust.. They did try. At that time some of the standard passenger cars' original AC still worked... Wonder if that is still true in Frisco?

Griff Murphey posted:

• Nice shot of the Frisco in Meteor paint. As they have gone to so much trouble with the paint it'd be neat if they could fake the drive rods with some kind of replica, maybe cast resin...

The rods were removed for moving the locomotive to its new location.  They're back on.

Rusty

Nice!

I predict this locomotive model, at least in Texas, will bring big bucks in the coming years. It is truly to be a rare item. The ones in the authentic schemes will be even more valuable. Yes, a minor road, but in Texas...iconic!  It will not surprise me if there is a rerun.

Griff Murphey posted:

I predict this locomotive model, at least in Texas, will bring big bucks in the coming years. It is truly to be a rare item. The ones in the authentic schemes will be even more valuable. Yes, a minor road, but in Texas...iconic!  It will not surprise me if there is a rerun.

Griff   I would be very surprised if there is a rerun in the future. I ask Scott 5 years ago if he would do one it was not until he added the CGW version that it all came together originally they were only doing 100 models but finally  settled on 125. The Max Gray's were done in 1960 and 1963 this is the first model done in 58 years. the SSM versions are totally sold out.

Amazing but here are the number break down. for the Texas version   13 3 rail-----18 2 rail the rest of the 125 is spread out . People when they see these will be very up set they did not reserve.

Bob

If wishes were horses I would have a huge 2 rail layout on O Scale. The fact remains that while 0 scale 2 rail has undergone a huge revival in recent years, it's still a rich man's or lucky bachelor's hobby.  The space required is just insane, to do it right. When the Max Grays came out HO was reigning supreme. The only O scale kits were highly labor intensive craftsmen kits and the couplers by and large were dummy. Contrast that with what you can buy off the shelf from Atlas. Today I believe the 3 railers represent simply lazy O scalers. We can still run our childhood trains but the entertainment value of today's O locos is just outstanding. Sound, smoke.... Great! So you cannot compare the poor sales of those Max Grays with where O gauge is today - both scale and 3 rail which compliment each other as we see here a loco built to both systems.

Griff Murphey posted:

If wishes were horses I would have a huge 2 rail layout on O Scale. The fact remains that while 0 scale 2 rail has undergone a huge revival in recent years, it's still a rich man's or lucky bachelor's hobby.  The space required is just insane, to do it right. When the Max Grays came out HO was reigning supreme. The only O scale kits were highly labor intensive craftsmen kits and the couplers by and large were dummy. Contrast that with what you can buy off the shelf from Atlas. Today I believe the 3 railers represent simply lazy O scalers. We can still run our childhood trains but the entertainment value of today's O locos is just outstanding. Sound, smoke.... Great! So you cannot compare the poor sales of those Max Grays with where O gauge is today - both scale and 3 rail which compliment each other as we see here a loco built to both systems.

 

Lot of mythology in the above; not being rich nor a bachelor perhaps I'm the only 2 rail O scale modeler on the planet outside that category, but I'd bet I'm wrong.  My layout is also only 11' x 13', too.  I must be doing it all wrong........ 

The kits I build are the same ones that have been available for decades - couple of evenings to do them up right if I want to push envelopes, but I'm far more leisurely in the pursuit of my hobby.  As for Atlas, they unfortunately don't make any freight cars that I want or need for my layout.

Sound & smoke?  The 3 loco's that I have that had such in them found that ripped out and sold off at first opportunity.