3rd Rail's NYC Hudson Models; J3a "Super Hudson" Repairs & Modifications

I have the Sunset/3rd Rail J3a "super hudson", i.e. roller bearing rods, Worthington Feedwater System, PT tender, and "Selkirk front end". The only issue I had with the model, from an operating standpoint, was the front truck on the centipede tender. The wire was a bit too tight and didn't allow the truck to properly swivel in curves.

That said, it is a beautiful model, except the tender has the incorrect "NEW YORK CENTRAL" lettering! It seems that Scott's builder first produced the NYC Dreyfus Hudsons, then the ESE Hudsons, and lastly the J3A "super hudson" models, but forgot the that NYC lettering on the big PT centipede tenders was quite a bit different from the streamlind hudsons. 

I had the tender on my model striped and repainted & lettered, however the difficult part was finally find the correct Champ decal set! I finally located a partial set at one of the Chicago March Meets.

Thanks so much for your input Jack, and very nice photos of that thoroughly "in service" model! 

The tender lettering was the main beef I had heard about before. Indeed it's wrong but not glaring enough for me personally to avoid the model. I wonder if Scott would go for the idea of producing a small batch of separate sale PT tenders with the correct lettering. Like what Lionel did, and can be added to their previous Hudson models as well.

Scott has tried and tried and tried to get his various builders to make "spare" or "additional" tenders. The ONLY time that he has been successful in convincing his Korean/Chinese builders to produce additional tenders was for the B&O T-3 4-8-2 project. The builder FINALLY agreed to produce a VERY small number of extra long Vanderbilt style "tank" tenders.

The oriental mind has been totally unable to comprehend the American consumer's unbelievable desire for separate sale tenders! So, there really is no chance for Scott to get you a separate sale PT tender, especially for a model that was produced some years ago.

Just do what I did, and have the tender lettering corrected, and I'm sure that the Champ decal set shouldn't be THAT hard to find, being NYC.

Anyone have the 3rd Rail J1a Hudson from 2003?

Any comments or feedback appreciated.

Did it come with an engineer figure and cab windows? The one I just bought does not have either.

I don't have the  Hudson but the Niagara released just before did not have figures either nor the correct number of seats (4). Precision Scale has the seats and figures are readily available from MTH and Arttista among others.

I had to work on mine (Moto-Tool) in order for it to function; ah, that's 3rd Rail, so often.

It's beautiful, but no more so than Lionel's J3a (excuuuse the tender gap; I'm

correcting), to my eye. But, I'm a "good" detail guy, not a "don't touch that" type.

The tender lettering is indeed incorrect; I saw that before I ever found out that the loco

had non-functional tender coupler (no swing at all) and drawbar (OK if you have O-950

curves). I fixed both. The EOB is of course annoying and unrealistic, but it's not a switcher.

But, I had just about decided that the tender lettering was "OK", then I saw the photos

above of that beautiful re-lettered and weathered J3a.

Blast; another project.

D500

No issue with the tender coupler, it swings freely from side to side probably close to 160 degrees. Drawbar swing is okay as well. No problem running through 054 curves.

The combination of plugging in the tether and hooking up the drawbar is a pita.

So far conventional running seems to be fine. Smoke output is moderate but okay for me. I'm not a fan of filling up the room with smoke. The sound is okay considering its generic RS4.0 but there does seem to be some static/hissing in the speaker.

The electronics for tmcc running is still a puzzle. Mislabeled and oriented switches, amongst other things 

 Originally Posted by D500:

The main appeal of the locomotive to me is that it's a model of the most powerful and efficient form any NYC Hudson ever took, hence the "Super Hudson" moniker, while Lionel's model represents the early J-3a's with the standard boiler front and tender. They likely chose this configuration so it would still vaguely resemble the famous J1e 5344.

As for the tender gap, did you do the 2-8-8-2 drawbar trick?

Tr18,

Same thing! Did we buy from the same guy? I bought a used 3rd rail J1D from a guy here on the ogr forum 1 1/2 years ago.  It did not have figures or cab windows, the selller said he didnt remember etc...

I contacted Scott at 3rd rail he didn't remember if it had cab windows and 3rd rail does not carry old parts Anyways.. I contacted George Kohs who makes high end 2 rail models he gave me the name of a guy who could fabricate them from brass $, but I decided to run the Hudson without the windows. George kohs told me some Hudson's ran without them at times. I  have no idea if this is the case, but in northeast winters I would think windows would be neccasrry.. Its a detailed and good looking engine besides the windows. On a side note 2 rail Hudson's by George Kohs run in the 3k range..

http://www.kohs.com/NYC%20J3a%...project%20update.htm

Interesting Nick. There is a space on mine that you would think the cab windows would go. I was away when way Hudson arrived at the time, I contacted the owner 1 month later, he had no clue about windows and to be honest either do I. I did notice Hotwaters J3 had windows. Thanks for the links..

Here's that link again, just noticed Rich edited my original one and for some reason it broke:

3rd Rail J1a Hudson

Anyway, today I managed to get my hands on a boxed, cosmetically pristine and gently used "Super Hudson" #5453 at a reasonable price. The owner cited its inability to budge the GGD 20th Century Limited as the reason for selling. Should be a great sister engine to my future Lionel Dreyfuss #5452 and shouldn't have any issues handling some standard plastic heavyweights. Very excited and at the same time holding my breath for when it arrives on Friday. Let's hope the Post Office goes easy on it. Pictures from the seller:

I had a question for Jack (Hot Water) regarding this model as well. Well, two actually.

1) Is the lubricator linkage backwards? Or does the orientation not matter? Kohs installed theirs the other way:

2) Am I seeing things or did 3rd Rail mess up the number "7" on the 5447 model? In your photo it looks as if it's the early style 7 while the rest of the numbers are the (correct) later style. Compare:

1) I'm not real sure that it matters. I'll have to look at some real ones.

2) I remember a discussion about that #7, way back when the models came out, and Hudson5432 explained the whole "number thing" in great detail. However I can not remember what the technical answer was. Maybe he will join in and tell us again.

Follow-up to above:

1) Yes, the lubricator linkage is indeed "backwards" when compared to prototype photos of  #5447. My guess is the Korean builder might have done that for clearance near the crosshead guide bracket and other stuff in the same area.

2) The number "7" is definitely different on the model when compared to the prototype photos from the early 1950s. I don't know what happened in this case.

Thanks Jack, will see if I can reverse that linkage to the correct position. Did the same thing to my Lionel Hudson.

As for for the number "7", my preferred cab number when searching for one of these actually was 5447 but I'm glad that's not the one I ended up with now. It would have really bugged me, even more so than the tender lettering.

Also, did you say you had your tender completely stripped and repainted with new decals? It looks like whoever did the job for you actually included the wrong "7" to match the cab (unless he was somehow able to leave the original decals unmolested).

No, only the sides of the tender had to be redone. As I recall, the incorrect lettering was removed, so that the whole thing didn't need to be stripped and repainted.

If you surf for pics of NYC Hudsons you'll see the lubricator linkage in both configurations.

It appears on most of the J1s the knee was down but on the J3s it was up as in the pic above. Likely something was changed along the way to require the position change.

Pete

Nick, What is the 2-8-8-2 drawbar trick? thanks

Kevin, credit goes to Norton for the idea. The trick is to replace the the original tender drawbar with the one for the 2-8-8-2 model. They can be ordered from Lionel's parts department:

Be forewarned it does take a fair amount of dis-assembly and you need to be careful to not break any wires. You also need to know how to take the little connector pieces out of the white plug to make way for the new ones. A bit of work, but the result is far better looking than before:

Many of the Sunset/3rd Rail steam locomotive models have decals, and I don't remember exactly how this model's tender was lettered, nor how my buddy "corrected it".

The J3 Super Hudson lettering is paint, likely pad printed. I have had good luck with Polly Scale ELO to remove lettering but have not tried it on a 3rd rail engine yet. Best to try it on some paint on the inside to make sure its safe for the black paint. You will still want to overspray the black to get rid of any white residue that remains before decaling.

Pete

Thanks Nick and Pete.  It would be cool if optional drawbars specific to each engine were available from the manufacturer to reduce the distance to the tender.

MTH offers different length "wireless drawbars" for their various steam models.

Pete, I'm not sure what you mean about drawbar mounts unless you were talking about the engine drawbar. When it comes to the tender drawbar, it was a bolt-in swap and you don't even have to cut the wires or shrink wrap or unscrew the sensors. Just extract the original wire connectors from the white plug and slip the new ones in in the same order. The biggest PITA was the actual dis-assembly to get at the drawbar. Presto-changeo, the engine tender gap is now the same as all other Lionel scale steamers.

If you want it even closer then yeah you're going to have to mess with the engine drawbar.

The USRA 2-8-8-2 drawbar for the tender was really just a lucky find. Most drawbars have dimensions unique for the engine or tender they come with. For those you either have make your own or cut the existing drawbar shorter. I choose to purchase a set of drawbars from that engine and/or tender parts list and cut them shorter leaving one pair untouched if I ever decide to sell it. When I get a replacement drawbar for the J3a engine I'll post some pics on how I do it. For wired tether drawbars its as simple as drilling a new hole but its a little more involved for wireless drawbars.

Pete

I see what you mean now, I was just talking about it in the specific instance of Lionel's J3a.

For those wondering about the missing cab windows issue on 3rd Rail's earlier J1a and J1d models. I just noticed there's a factory photo of one on their "Boneyard" page right now that clearly shows cab windows in place. Very strange.

Yes thanks, I taked to George Kohs he gave me the name of a guy that would scratch build the windows, unless others know of another person here on the forum. 3rd rail only keeps parts for a short time never mind a few years since they now go with a different builder. My j1d was made several years back.

The purist in me wants the original parts so I'd likely only buy one if it has the windows. Wonder how long that search is gonna take....

Good point. trying to locate a pair of windows,  its the proverbial needle in the haystack..!

I've accepted long ago that somewhere along the line I was cursed when it comes to parts. Almost every one I've really needed simply cannot be found through conventional means. Rather I have only been able to rely on relentless inquiry and dumb luck to end my searches....

Agreed, if you here of a pair let me know.

Got the Hudson today, unfortunately the Post Office beat the crap out of it. There was a sticker on the box that had "Opened in Transit" and "Contents Possibly Damaged" checked off. The model had several issues including all the builders plates coming off, a completely loose pilot assembly, boiler front detached and scratched on the edges, various small piping details bent or broken, and rear tender wheel suspension assembly broken into pieces with hot glue all over it. I've got half a mind to pursue them for the damages but honestly this all looks like things I can sit down and carefully fix. It's an absolutely beautiful model otherwise. Will post photos during the week after I make the repairs.

Good old "Buster Brown"!

Not sure I get the reference Jack, but "Busted" pretty accurately describes a few parts on this model after the Post Office abuse. This is the second time now they've opened one of my packages in transit and molested the contents. Luckily it's nothing permanent; some judicious use of JB Weld and a fine point paint bush should return the model to like new condition. Already got all the hot glue off the rear tender wheel assembly and the hardest thing is going to be finding a replacement tiny spring for the suspension.

Nick

I love 3rd rail keep your eyes on e bay

And go to tranz.com some times they

have a good supply of parts. And I got

broke from the USPS a long time ago.

When I buy on line I try to avoid them.

          Mike.

Nick,

Call 3rd Rail anyway... they MIGHT surprise you with a spring!!!

On Monday, Wednesday or Friday from 10 AM to 4 PM Pacific time, call 800-373-7245 (800-3rd rail) and when the message stops, press 4# for Danny. 

He's their repair guy and very nice.  He's gone out of his way to find me stuff for my ESE Dreyfus - yup, Post Office strikes again...

3rd Rail does maintain a parts inventory, just not many items that are specific to particular trains - mainly generic stuff.  BUT, you never know, they might just have that spring you so desperately need...

Best,

Dave

Yep, sent Scott an email a few hours ago. Will try the phone number if he doesn't see it.

Here's the sticker the Post Office put on the box: